LotR, Book VI, Ch-1: The Tower of Cirith Ungol

[Gordis]

What do you expect of me, BB? To agree that the Ring was suicidal? No way!

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

ahhh Gor ...but Sam's mind?
That didn't worry it??

I mean it had enough problems trying to corrupt Bilbo, over so many years, he who took the ring in that momment with pity in his heart.

Sam, infused with love, devotion and steadfast common sense and about as corruptible as an Angel's tear of of joy ...

Right, Sam was much of a problem for the Ring. Frodo, made more vulnerable by his Morgul wound, was slowly falling under the Ring's influence. Therefore, when Sam acted to rescue Frodo, the Ring helped him! It wanted to get back to Frodo and continue its corruptive work.

Originally Posted by BB

If the ring had betrayed Sam then, and not (perhaps) caused the Fighting madness and rivalry between the Orcs ... would it not have it safely been on it's alleged "master's" hands within a day at most?

Not necessarily. An orc could have taken the ring and run away, hiding somewhere - in Moria, in Gundabad - whatever. Try to find him! With Frodo, the Ring knew it was going the right direction.

Originally Posted by BB

Tis odd that he does not sense the ring being worn in his own land.

He did sense something, IMO, but it is said that his own fumes obstructed his vision.

Originally Posted by BB

and what of the consistently " i seen nuthin' Guv, honest ..." nazgul that yet again cannot see or sense them as they escape the Tower?

Right. Nazgul as usual either "don't see" or "don't tell"...

[jammi567]

i know this is probally insignificant, but in Book 4 Ch 10, The Choices of Master Samwise, he puts on the Rings when he hears orc voices, and hasn't taken it off by the end of the chapter. Yet in Book 6 Ch 1, The Tower of Cirith Ungol, it says "Without any clear purpose he drew out the Ring and put it on again." inconsistancy or what.

Anyways, what do you think the Nazgul at the end of the chapter is doing because it seems a bit too early for the Which-kings death, and i don't think it could be for the wail of the Watchers because why would the tower need a nazgul nearby if they are all meant to be elsewere, and Sauron, i think at this point of time, hasn't heard of Frodo's capture yet?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by jammi567

i know this is probally insignificant, but in Book 4 Ch 10, The Choices of Master Samwise, he puts on the Rings when he hears orc voices, and hasn't taken it off by the end of the chapter. Yet in Book 6 Ch 1, The Tower of Cirith Ungol, it says "Without any clear purpose he drew out the Ring and put it on again." inconsistancy or what.

Inconsistancy, yes, IMHo. Tolkien forgot to tell us that Sam removed the Ring sometime before putting it on again.

Originally Posted by jammi567

Anyways, what do you think the Nazgul at the end of the chapter is doing because it seems a bit too early for the Which-kings death, and i don't think it could be for the wail of the Watchers because why would the tower need a nazgul nearby if they are all meant to be elsewere, and Sauron, i think at this point of time, hasn't heard of Frodo's capture yet?

That was the very early hours of March 15. The WK was bombarding the City and then breaking the Gates. The nazgul in question, most likely flew either to or from Barad Dur with news one way and orders another way. The flight route naturally passed over Cirith Ungol. The nazgul heard the Watchers and came to investigate. Likely, he continued on, after summoning the orcs, after all, he had messages to bear. Then Sauron, hearing of the massacre, send a nazgul to command the fortress.

Now that I think about it, the nazgul must have been flying TO Barad-Dur. He reported to Sauron and then was sent directly back to take command of the tower. Otherwise, too little time to find another nazgul in time to send scouts who nearly caught the hobbits later.

[Serenoli]

This is so annoying! The first few days, I was very disappointed because hardly anyone was interested in my summary, and only when I stopped checking, you all started discussing it!

I was most interested in this discussion of what the Ring was really upto. There seem to be a number of explanations... Gor says it realized Sam was intent on rescuing Frodo, and decided to help so he could get to Frodo who is more corrupted. This makes sense to me. First, he tried to seduce Sam, showing him the vision of those gardens, and him as the master of them, etc. That didn't work very well, so then, it would try to get back to Frodo, who it knew was easier to bend to its will...

But, there are still unexplained instances of the Ring's behaviour. As BB points out somewhere, why didn't it chose some other vassal in the Mountains? It is mentioned, I think, that Gollum frequently attacked orcs who came to the Mountain, and killed them with the aid of the Ring. If, at the time when Isildur had the Ring, it was willing to have an orc, why should it care now, especially as its an orc vs. Gollum (who is curiously resistant, and won't get out of his cave, no matter what)? How easy it would be to psychologically warn an orc, who then kills Gollum, takes the Ring as his own, and once complete domination is achieved, the Ring leads him to Sauron? Surely, it knew, when no one else did, that Sauron was alive, and could tell where he was?

A possibility is that, perhaps as the years passed, and the Ring felt itself to be more of a seperate entity, maybe it began to like being the Master over someone else (remember it had all Sauron's evil) and liked less being the one who was mastered by Sauron. But, that explanation leads to too many new questions in my mind...

[CAB]

While the idea that the Ring purposely aided Sam by causing the Orcs’ in the tower to fight and frightening off the single Orc in the hallway is very interesting, I can’t agree with it. In my opinion, the Ring and Sauron were two parts of the same being, as Butterbeer said earlier. Unless it was mastered by another, it would be completely loyal to Sauron.

Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself. Letter #246

It is entirely possible that the Ring was “loudly” calling to Sauron and his servants when Sam scared the Orc in the hallway. The Orc just didn’t understand the message the Ring was sending out (why would he?) Also remember that Sam felt compelled to put on the Ring when he realized that the Orc was approaching (he just didn’t have time to do this). Forcing it’s bearer to put the Ring on seems to be it’s main way of trying to reveal itself to Sauron.

If the Ring could force Orcs to fight each other to aid it’s holder or aid it’s recovery by Sauron, then why didn’t it do so in Moria? By far the most likely scenario during the battle there was the Ring being taken by the Balrog. It just didn’t happen to work out that way, by some miracle.

Which brings us back to the Orcs destroying each other in the tower. This is just so...ridiculous, that to me, the only logical answer is intervention by Eru.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by CAB

By far the most likely scenario during the battle there was the Ring being taken by the Balrog. It just didn’t happen to work out that way, by some miracle..

Did not happen because at that time was another ringbearer, who did not dream about putting the ring on finger, or had any will to decide on farther actions, Gandalf was a leader and carried on according his own judgement.

Which brings us back to the Orcs destroying each other in the tower. This is just so...ridiculous, that to me, the only logical answer is intervention by Eru

According Galadriel, and she knew what she was saying, the ring "gives a power according the measure of each possessor" and Frodo, if he wished could order Nazgul and send his thoughts to others. Frodo is mentally and physically was much weaker, than a laborer and no-noncense Sam, so, to me here is nothing stange, or ridiculous that he managed to channel his thoughts in more direct fasion. Like poor Eru has nothing else to do besides arranging a brawl between two local group of brutes.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Olmer

to me here is nothing stange, or ridiculous that he managed to channel his thoughts in more direct fasion.

Olmer, I hope you don’t think I was saying the idea that the Ring caused the fight is ridiculous. I wouldn’t do that (though I don’t agree with this idea ). What is ridiculous is that the Orcs all (almost all) destroyed each other just in time for Sam to rescue Frodo, whatever the cause.

Originally Posted by Olmer

Did not happen because at that time was another ringbearer, who did not dream about putting the ring on finger, or had any will to decide on farther actions

This is related to much of my problem with this idea. The fight in the tower started before Sam put the Ring back on and (so far as I can tell) without Sam specifically wishing for this kind of aid. Look at what Galadriel said to Frodo:

‘You have not tried,’ she said. ‘Only thrice have you set the Ring upon your finger since you knew what you possessed. Do not try!’

I think this statement tells us a lot about how the Ring works (assuming Galadriel knows what she is talking about, of course). 1. To use these kinds of powers the holder must be wearing the Ring. 2. There must be a conscious and specific effort put forth. 3. The holder must recognize the power of the Ring.

I don’t think that numbers 1 or 2 apply to Sam in this situation and it is actually questionable whether or not 3 does.

Originally Posted by Olmer

Like poor Eru has nothing else to do besides arranging a brawl between two local group of brutes.

I really don’t like to use the divine aid argument myself. To me, it is much like using foresight to explain the actions of those who possess this power. You can really use it on any occasion (something like: Gandalf went to Moria knowing that he would be killed, knowing that he would be resurrected, knowing that this was a key to defeating Sauron or even Elrond decided to wear green that day because he foresaw that he would wear green that day). So I think that, without a lot of evidence, things like foresight and divine aid should be something of an “argument of last resort”. In the case of the Orcs’ fight in the tower though, I am willing to use the idea of Eru’s involvement, because this battle is so incredibly convenient and because (for me at least) there is no other good explanation.

[The Gaffer]

Wow. It seems like we've agreed that there is a big massive plot hole in LOTR

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Wow. It seems like we've agreed that there is a big massive plot hole in LOTR

I doubt; orcs starting a fight over some pretty shirt isn't that unnatural; later on, in the Land of shadow, the orc tracker kills the soldier just because they started cursing each other; even in the Hobbit it is stated that orcs hated everything and everyone (just as Melkor did). This all seems pretty orcish to me .

[The Gaffer]

Then one has to wonder how the **** they got thousands of 'em to march across continents instead of going off pillaging wherever.

[Landroval]

I would say it's Sauron's power; according to the Field of Cormallen, RotK:

and even at that moment all the hosts of Mordor trembled, doubt clutched their hearts, their laughter failed, their hands shook and their limbs were loosed. The Power that drove them on and filled them with hate and fury was wavering, its will was removed from them

As Gordis liked to point, Sauron isn't in charge of his minions all the time .

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Landroval

I doubt; orcs starting a fight over some pretty shirt isn't that unnatural; later on, in the Land of shadow, the orc tracker kills the soldier just because they started cursing each other; even in the Hobbit it is stated that orcs hated everything and everyone (just as Melkor did). This all seems pretty orcish to me .

I really don’t think that is a sufficient answer in this case. Sam just happened to be back-tracking through Shelob's tunnel (and thus managed to avoid arriving too early) while most of the fighting was going on and they just happened to finish as he reached the tower entrance. Luckily, there just happened to be enough Orcs left to hold a conversation to let Sam (and us) know what was going on and also to lead Sam to where Frodo was being kept.

99% (or very close to it) of the Orcs in the tower were killed. When groups of Orcs battle each other how often do you think there is this kind of casualty rate? Also remember that these are groups of Orcs in Mordor and with Nazgul nearby. They aren’t very far away from some (no doubt) very severe punishment for this kind of behavior. Yes, the tracker and soldier you mentioned were also in Mordor, but they were just two and were far away from any leaders. I think there had to be more to this than just Orcs being Orcs.

[The Gaffer]

CAB said it.

Also, good quote Landroval. This idea of Sauron's will inhabiting them in some way is something that we often forget in discussing other stuff.

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by CAB

I really don’t think that is a sufficient answer in this case. Sam just happened to be back-tracking through Shelob's tunnel (and thus managed to avoid arriving too early) while most of the fighting was going on and they just happened to finish as he reached the tower entrance. Luckily, there just happened to be enough Orcs left to hold a conversation to let Sam (and us) know what was going on and also to lead Sam to where Frodo was being kept.

99% (or very close to it) of the Orcs in the tower were killed. When groups of Orcs battle each other how often do you think there is this kind of casualty rate? Also remember that these are groups of Orcs in Mordor and with Nazgul nearby. They aren’t very far away from some (no doubt) very severe punishment for this kind of behavior. Yes, the tracker and soldier you mentioned were also in Mordor, but they were just two and were far away from any leaders. I think there had to be more to this than just Orcs being Orcs.

His decision to "jump in" was taken _after_ he put on the ring and heard the orcs fighting. He also knew from Shelob's lair where Frodo will be hold. As to the orcs killing each other to the last ones, I don't think they would consider whether a living orc was of their own company or not - they would slay each other to the last, regardless - there was no stopping; fury, madness, greed and the presence of a mysterious fighter around was more than enough reason. Sam also didn't hear any signs of battle when he advanced; should he have heard, he probably would have stopped advancing or taken whatever other action. In conclusion, I don't see anything forced here.

[Butterbeer]

Orcs will be Orcs!

(or as Big C said somewhere recently ...

Did you know that all orcs are "cosmetically unique"? )


cosmetically unique dudes will be cosmetically unique!


......................................

Question:

If we assume that the ring and Sauron are a duality, and that we can only assume that sauron thinks he can control the ring, or that he beleives the ring is trying to get back to a "master": and we can only assume this on the basis that Gandalf is at best summising this ... even Tolkein himself states in the much quoted letter 246 ...that sauron has to make the ring obey him ...thus implying against its own will ...



and that after being away from Sauron's weakened fea and had a nice holiday and rest by the river etc ....

if we assume it IS a duality: which is the stronger? Sauron or the ring?

[Landroval]

if we assume it IS a duality: which is the stronger? Sauron or the ring?

Considering that even if Gandalf had mastered the ring, there would be a delicate balance between the ringed-Gandalf and ringless-Sauron, I would say that Sauron has retained more power than there is in the ring.

[Gordis]

A post where I agree :

I agree with CAB here:

Originally Posted by CAB

I really don’t think that is a sufficient answer in this case. Sam just happened to be back-tracking through Shelob's tunnel (and thus managed to avoid arriving too early) while most of the fighting was going on and they just happened to finish as he reached the tower entrance. Luckily, there just happened to be enough Orcs left to hold a conversation to let Sam (and us) know what was going on and also to lead Sam to where Frodo was being kept.

99% (or very close to it) of the Orcs in the tower were killed. When groups of Orcs battle each other how often do you think there is this kind of casualty rate? Also remember that these are groups of Orcs in Mordor and with Nazgul nearby. They aren’t very far away from some (no doubt) very severe punishment for this kind of behavior. Yes, the tracker and soldier you mentioned were also in Mordor, but they were just two and were far away from any leaders. I think there had to be more to this than just Orcs being Orcs.

And I agree with Landroval here:

Considering that even if Gandalf had mastered the ring, there would be a delicate balance between the ringed-Gandalf and ringless-Sauron, I would say that Sauron has retained more power than there is in the ring.

What a nice short post!

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Considering that even if Gandalf had mastered the ring, there would be a delicate balance between the ringed-Gandalf and ringless-Sauron, I would say that Sauron has retained more power than there is in the ring.

I agree with Landroval’s logic here, but I am almost sure I remember there being a quote somewhere saying that Sauron put the greater part of his power into the Ring. That would complicate this question a bit.

Just to throw out a little conspiracy theory here (not to be taken too seriously); maybe the Nazgul instigated the fight in the tower. It has been argued before that they wanted the Ring to be destroyed. The Witch King had just recently sensed the Ring outside Minas Morgul. It would seem that the Orcs that started the fight were under the Witch King’s command. A Nazgul very conveniently showed up just after Sam and Frodo escaped from the tower (not before, when the alarm was first raised), and seems to have (again conveniently) not noticed the Ring.

[Serenoli]

There, right there, CAB, is a brilliant idea for an rpg. LotR: the Inside Story, or something like that!

hmmm, it is true that Sauron put most of his power into the Ring, but what kind of power? If the Ring has less willpower than Sauron, then it will, still, be undoubtedly weaker...

[Landroval]

I am almost sure I remember there being a quote somewhere saying that Sauron put the greater part of his power into the Ring.

Well, there is this quote from Of the rings of power and the third age, Silmarillion:
"And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring"
but it doesn't imply that the greater power has been transferred.

It has been argued before that they wanted the Ring to be destroyed.

The nazgul stand or fall by Sauron; if the ring perishes, so will they. I don't think they are suicidal, though work-related stress might leave its marks .

Originally Posted by Gordis

A post where I agree :
I agree with CAB here:
And I agree with Landroval here:
What a nice short post!

Please decide on either of us ; I dislike competition