Lord of the Flies - Entmoot Book Club Discussion

[azalea]

Jack and Ralph hefting the large limb together has the air of symbolism -- the limb being the leadership role or something like that -- and Ralph says it's "almost too heavy" and Jack responds "not for the two of us." All of the boys are scattered around the mountainside looking for firewood.
Then they realize they can't light the fire. This is a bit of very obvious symbolism -- Civilized man emerges with the ability to harness fire. Guess who might have that power? Piggy of course, although Ralph is the one who thinks of it -- he being the representation of civilization. Piggy is perturbed about having his specs snatched away, and cannot function without them -- what is intellegence without the ability to reason? Also, he is made even more physically incapable of survival without them.
The fire is started, and all are happy until it burns itself out -- almost. Piggy has an "I told you so" moment when he points out they've started an out of control forest fire. It isn't enough for Man to be able to make fire, he must also be able to harness and control it. Notice that Jack thought the fire itself was enough, the fact that it wasn't producing smoke -- the point of the exercise, didn't register as important to him. I've known so many people like that -- completing the task at hand is all they consider, they don't think about why they are doing what they're doing. It is so typical of so many people -- it's as if they have no brain, or just enough to be dangerous!
Tension is growing between Piggy and Jack, because Piggy sees that Jack isn't respecting the conch, in that he tells him to shut up even when he has it. Imperfections in the system already. But of course Jack is smart enough to be on Ralph's side, because he knows he can have power through him.
I love the line "Piggy glanced nervously into hell."
Piggy realizes in horror that not all of the little boys are accounted for. Ralph throws back that he'd given Piggy the job of getting all the names so they'd have a list. But Piggy doesn't have the power of leadership that way, so wasn't able to do it -- they all wandered away from him. It becomes especially horrifying when they realize the boy who'd seen the beastie was missing -- and we are to assume, like they do, that he was trapped in the forest fire. Piggy has an excellent example to illustrate his point about keeping order, etc., but it has come at too high a cost.
One last note -- notice how it is Simon who makes a point of contradicting Jack's statement that Piggy didn't help build the fire; he points out that without Piggy there would have been no specs to make the fire at all.
I hope I haven't said too much! Next time I'll wait and let someone else start the chapter discussion. But I'm having fun!

[jerseydevil]

I will now try typing this a THIRD time.
--------------------------

I'm glad you're having a good time Azalea - was afraid that it might not be. I also like that you start the discussions - because you bring out a lot of symbolism that I seem to miss. I haven't read the book but I have the movie and I know you have read the book before - so you might be cheating and have discussed the book in a class or something.

Now to try RETYPING all the analysis stuff I was trying to say again.

In Chapter 2 - one gets a better view of the conch representing order and democracy. I think the fire represents a break in that order and control. It's funny how Ralph looks to Piggy for guidance - but won't admit it - to himself or anyone else. He knows he would be lost without Piggy though. It's almost like Jack is the muscle, Ralph is the communicator or diplomat (or nerves) and Piggy is the intelligence (or brain). Ralph knows he needs both Jack and Piggy to survive and keep the group together. The thing is - Jack has no respect for Piggy and acts impulsively - while Piggy thinks things out and looks at the ramifications of the actions.

Ralph also seems to still view this as a game. Almost like he just feels it's cool to make rules and be in charge - but if people don't follow the rules - particularly Jack - "oh well". You can see his childlike behavior and joy at being in charge everytime he stands on his head. It's like one minute he's 'commander" the next minute it's just a game. Going on my previous statement - Ralph doesn't have the "muscle" to enforce the rules - only Jack does and Jack is the main person who ignores the rules. This makes Ralph's authority very tenuous. You need brains to survive - but you don't need brains to lead and have people follow you - all you need is a sense of authority. Jack sees no need for Piggy and therefore sees no need for intelligence or thinking.

I also also think there is a big connection between the boy with the brith defect (I babysat for someone with this birth defect - it's call "Pork Wine Stain") and the fire. The fire spread across the island - just like the birth defect does across the boys face. I also think that Golding makes a point of mentioning the boys birth defect for it to be just coincidence. The boy is also the person who is missing as the fire spreads. This may be far fetched - but I just see a link between the boys face and the fisland - at least in terms of the fire. Maybe this will come up again in the book - or maybe it really means nothing and there isn't a connection.

This is the only picture I could get of Pork Wine Stain for those who do not know what it is...

http://images.spotlighthealth.com/Da...ics/da0807.gif

[azalea]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I will now try typing this a THIRD time.
--------------------------

Lol, I had trouble with mine, too!

I haven't read the book but I have the movie and I know you have read the book before - so you might be cheating and have discussed the book in a class or something.

I am. But it was at least 16 yrs. ago, so it's not REALLY cheating. My memory isn't THAT good!

I also also think there is a big connection between the boy with the brith defect (I babysat for someone with this birth defect - it's call "Pork Wine Stain") and the fire. The fire spread across the island - just like the birth defect does across the boys face. I also think that Golding makes a point of mentioning the boys birth defect for it to be just coincidence. The boy is also the person who is missing as the fire spreads. This may be far fetched - but I just see a link between the boys face and the fisland - at least in terms of the fire. Maybe this will come up again in the book - or maybe it really means nothing and there isn't a connection.

This is the only picture I could get of Pork Wine Stain for those who do not know what it is...

http://images.spotlighthealth.com/Da...ics/da0807.gif

Ahhh! Good point! I had forgotten about this boy from the last time I read it, and I agree that his having a birthmark has some significance because of the way he makes a point of talking about it (perhaps for no other reason than an easy identifier for when he is discovered missing). I like your idea of it being almost foreshadowing -- the birthmark is like a "burn" across his face, just like the island will now have a burn, and him being the one to perish in it. Another thought I had was that it connected to his being the one to see the beast somehow.
For future ref. -- it is port wine stain (you learn all about these fun types of things when you become a mommy! )
And yeah, Jack's a big jerk!

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by azalea
.
For future ref. -- it is port wine stain (you learn all about these fun types of things when you become a mommy! )

Oh - I misspelled it the third time. Although I had thought I had heard it as swine stain becuase of the pinkishness almost like the skin of a pig.

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by azalea
I hope I haven't said too much! Next time I'll wait and let someone else start the chapter discussion. But I'm having fun!

I love that you make such comprehensive remarks, because you point out many things that I don't think of. Very interesting reading

What caught my attention was that in the first chapter, the crashed airplane had made a deep scar through the trees. And now in this chapter, the kids destroy even more of the nature on the island with their fire. It makes me wonder what will happen in the third chapter. Will the kids ruin the island even more and sink it into the ocean?

When they said they were going to light a fire and all the children were overjoyed, I remembered how I used to be when I was little. I loved fires. I didn't care what kind of fuel we used to light a fire, as long as it was lit. I didn't care about the purpose of the fire, as long as I could just sit there and look into it and relax.
The kids in the book seem to be a bit like I was, even though they have in mind that green branches make more smoke, and smoke is what they need.

[wahine]

I suppose I will go ahead and give a summary/opinion of both chapters at once (hope I dont SPOIL anything, I already finished chapter 4)

I caught the symbolism, because I read the preface. Piggy is intelligence...and all that hoo-ha.

Although the story starts out in a most unrealistic fashion. (IE. plane crash, children survive, etc) the author does a fine job at taking up the slack with the realism and characterization of his boys.

Jack, by throwing his knife around, is asserting himself...being a peacock if you will. He's insecure. He nearly constantly has to challange things said to him with excuses, or prove himself in other manners. He likes to think of himself as a leader, but...hmmm, we'll see how well THAT dynamic works out...

Ralph...Oh boy, okay, is it just me or does it seem that Ralph is in a permanent state of perplexity? He's fascinated with the conch shell...Ralph, for me, represents the maturity of the group, though others try to make adults out of themselves at first, he just wants to explore, have fun, no adults are around anyway...yippee. Sorry, I have noticed this is all on the sarcastic side...Oh Bother. Ralph is elected chief. Ralph seems to be sort of running blind for a while.

Simon is weird. Flowers ARE NOT candles...

Piggy, one of my favorite characters--he represents the nerd in us all. He reminded me of the saying, "Behind every strong man is a strong woman." except...he isn't a woman, and the island is inhabited by boys - not men. On another rambling though, he wants to be apart of the group, but because of his seemingly superior mentality and intellect, and his body size, and his inability to partake in ANY physical labors, he's singled out. He has foresight, he worries about the -littluns-, no one else cares.

Samneric - the singular entity. They're funny, and haven't yet served much of a purpose.

Well, this is so not a chapter summary...present character summary I suppose...

Did anyone else notice that Piggy's real name is never mentioned?

The mulberry-boy plants a seed of fear inside the group, about the beastie. The fear that some of the smaller ones feel is just sort of bubbling beneath the surface.

[Jonathan]

Lord of the Flies
Chapter Three: Huts on the Beach

I figured we should continue with the next chapter.



Jack is out in the forest, hunting pigs. He can’t catch any and he eventually gives up. He comes upon Ralph, and Jack’s motives of wanting to be a hunter are somewhat revealed. Even though Jack says that the boys want meat, it seems as if he hunts for his personal enjoyment and for his urge to kill something. There is madness within Jack. Ralph notices this and insists that the building of a shelter is much more important than obtaining meat. We can see how the tension between the two boys is building up.

Ralph complains to Jack about how hard it is to control the children. When he gives them orders, they won’t complete them. Instead they will scatter and go play or bathe. Ralph had to work on building their new huts with the help of no one but Simon. Ralph says that he could blow the conch and assemble everyone for a meeting and put the kids to work, and they would work for five minutes and then just wander off. Ralph points out that even Jack’s hunters didn’t concentrate on hunting for long.
Being a leader isn’t easy, Ralph learns.

Simon has a break during the work on the shelters. He wanders in the forest and helps the ‘littleuns’ to some fruit, which they couldn’t reach by themselves. Then he finds himself a nice quiet place where he squats down and observe the Edenic nature around him.
Simon seems to feel at ease when he is out there all by himself. Jack in the other hand didn’t feel the same way at all when he was hunting. To Ralph he confesses that he got a feeling that he was not the hunter, but the hunted.
I believe that Jack thinks of the island solely as a place where survival is all that matters, whereas Simon perhaps sees the island more of a place of worship.

Originally posted by wahine
Did anyone else notice that Piggy's real name is never mentioned?

Yeah, but what’s wrong with the nickname Piggy?

[jerseydevil]

I read this chapter while I was in Indiana. The book seems much easier to read - after the first chapter.

I can see where Simon would almost be a "Christ" figure. It seems like he has the children following him - and then giving almost like communion to them with the fruit.

Jack seems pretty crazed about hunting. He has the thist for blood. The contrast between the way Simon going through the forest and the way Jack views and moves through the forest is interesting.

[azalea]

I have to say first of all that I went ahead and read ch. 4, and this is some of the absolute best fiction writing I've ever read. I had forgotten from so many years ago (and frankly, my teenage mind probably didn't appreciate it as much as I do now, either that or it's just the fact that it is richer on the second reading) how great it is, and I can see that this had to be Golding's masterpiece, it is genius writing, practically flawless, very succinct yet gripping. I'll have to read one of his other books and see if it's as good.

Anyway, this is a ch. where not much happens, and yet so much happens. It could be summed up in three sentences: Jack has a failed attempt at hunting solo, Ralph and Jack have a rift, and Simon visits his favorite place on the island. But the action we see is only a vehicle for the emotional drama taking place.
I love the descriptions of Jack as he hunts: "dog-like," "ape-like." The descriptions serve to show him as being animalistic in his hunting fervor, and the descriptions of the forest make it seem a scary place. This is for two reasons, I think -- one being that the act of hunting is shown as a scary thing. Jack is tense, the reader can feel the fear that they might experience if they were being hunted by one such as Jack, and Jack even gets the willies, he has a sense that HE is being hunted at one point. (Here we can see a glimpse of the parallel symbolism that will manifest itself later in the book.)
How can you not love a story that spends three sentences describing pig droppings?
Jack does not want to catch the pig. He DOES, but in his heart, in a place he does not acknowledge, he doesn't want to kill. He has not been brought up that way, and more importantly, he has a deep down knowledge that when he does kill, something (he doens't know what, but what it is is the civilization within him, his id will have won out over his superego) in him will be changed, he will be throwing away a part of himself that made him fit into English society. He knows he doesn't have it in him, but he WANTS to have it in him. Something is still there preventing his inner savage from emerging.

(I'll continue this on the next post, I'm afraid this one will be too long).

[azalea]

The next sequence is great -- Ralph, with Simon's help, is trying to do what is necessary to survive on the island until they are rescued. The main thing (aside from the rescue smoke signal) is shelter, but no one will help. The funny thing is that Jack has made his hunters exempt form helping because they are needed for the hunting. But hunters aren't really what are needed at this point. It kind of played as an appeasement situation: Ralph allows them to be exempt because that's what Jack wanted, but when it comes down to it, who would be better fit to build the huts than the very ones that aren't helping? They are the ones who are most inclined to work under leadership, and they are the bigger and stronger ones. Likewise, Piggy isn't helping, and although he wouldn't be able to do the manual parts, he would be helpful in directing what would work to make a sturdy shelter, I'd think, which would make it go quickly and more easily.

I love the line about how they talk at the meetings and "say we ought to build a jet, or a submarine, or a tv set." It is a microcosm of government right there: so many talk of what should be done rather than roll up their sleeves and do it, and then look to others to solve the problems, and blame others when things go wrong. And although intellect is good at saying what should be done, it is useless when it comes down to physically completing the task -- there must be those willing to do the work.
Very interesting is the conversation Jack and Ralph have, where the first wedge is stuck in between them. Ralph is resentful, and wants to tell Jack that hunting is not an important task right now, that they should wait until the shelters are made. He calls him on the fact that with all the time taken up with hunting, no meat has been gotten, time that could have been spent building and organizing. And also that the hunters hadn't even been hunting for a while, they've been goofing off with the rest.
The leader needs a lesser leader to make the work get done. If Jack had been involved, the work would have gotten done. It's like the government needs the law to enforce the system, in a way.
Jack doesn't get it. His quest for meat is personal, and he means to work on it until realized.
There's more talk about the fear that everyone feels, they get scared at night because they feel "as if it wasn't a good island." It is just what Jack felt while hunting, it is the uneasiness that Ralph feels, but pushes away.
Ralph must keep reminding Jack that their goal is rescue. Jack doesn't seem to care. He is intent on killing a pig -- and I love the part where he tries to justify it by saying he is working, too, and Ralph yells "But you like it!" (That gets to the heart of a lot of disagreements I think. People say, "but look, I did this," something not completely necessary, and the others get resentful because they have done the necessary work, which was something they didn't want to do but knew they must.)
Another great line (about Jack and Ralph, after they've resigned to go back to their tasks) "They looked at each other, baffled, in love and hate." They need each other, but can't meet each other in the middle, they are on different planes.

The final segment describing Simon's venture in the forest is a richly detailed description of his character, as shown through his actions and experiences. The glimmering white candle flowers, their heavy sweet scent in the air, the droning bees, it all evokes a very idyllic, beautiful, relaxing image (as well as some religious symbolism). There is no fear present, even when the darkness falls.

[jerseydevil]

Azalea - you bring up a lot of good points - especially the way jack was hunting on all fours. Much more animalistic than a "civilized" hunter.

[azalea]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
... a lot of... points...

Long-winded, as usual.
So can we go to chapter 4 now, huh, can we, huh, huh?

[jerseydevil]

Lord of the Flies
Chapter Four: Painted Faces and Long Hair

There you go and your posts aren't long winded. You add a lot to the discussion. Like 90%

[cassiopeia]

Great post azalea.

One thing I noticed in this chapter is when the author mentions that Piggy is different in accent. Maybe this is why Ralph teases Piggy about his ass-mar. The other boys are English (I think), so perhaps Piggy is American. To my ear, Americans would pronounce asthma a little like ass-mar.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
To my ear, Americans would pronounce asthma a little like ass-mar.

Well then you don't have a very good ear - because we pronounce it - as-muh.

[Sheeana]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Well then you don't have a very good ear - because we pronounce it - as-muh.

Yes, but to us, it sounds like you draw out your vowels, so yeah, it sounds like -mar to me as well.

Um. Nothing further to add. Just following the discussion.

[cassiopeia]

Thank you, Sheeana.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sheeana
Yes, but to us, it sounds like you draw out your vowels, so yeah, it sounds like -mar to me as well.

Um. Nothing further to add. Just following the discussion.

Maybe if they have a hick slang. But I have NEVER heard an an American say ass-mar. maybe you are confusing it with other english speakers. Maybe it's Canadian.

I'm going to refrain from making any remarks about the New Zealand and Australian accent - this is about the Lord of the Flies discussion. How many of you have been to the United States to know how we would say it? Granted you may get it from our movies or tv - but how do you know that is the way the MAJORITY of americans would say something? We're a LARGE country. The way something is pronounced is different depending on where you are. The Massachusetts's accent - they barely pronounce the "r" even in words that it occurs in - they say cah for car.

By the way - I think it is more likely that Piggy has a lisp or Ralph is just being a jerk to him. As far as I'm concerned Ralph wasn't very nice in the beginning.

For the majority of Americans who speak proper American-Englsih - it's az-muh.

[Sheeana]

We don't have to travel to the US to hear an American accent. We get more than enough coming to NZ and Aussie funnily enough. I can't believe you're arguing over how WE hear the US accent. Sheesh.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sheeana
We don't have to travel to the US to hear an American accent. We get more than enough coming to NZ and Aussie funnily enough. I can't believe you're arguing over how WE hear the US accent. Sheesh.

I'm not arguing over it - but we don't say ass-mar. For your information - when I read Ralph saying "ass-mar" I was thinking - "Who pronounces it like that?" I have NEVER heard anyone pronounce it with an "ar" sound, which is MORE than drawing out the vowels (as you claim) - it's a mispronounciation by adding an "r" in the word which doesn't exist. You guys were the ones who said is was most likely an AMERICAN accent - when it's not. So sheesh yourself. By the way - it's not a matter of how you hear something - it's how it is SAID and we do NOT say it like that.

We have a different pronounciation than british english - but the way Ralph claims Piggy pronounces asthma is NOT one of them.