Banned Books

Laurelyn · 02-06-2002, 11:06 PM

We're dicussing book banning in my langauge arts class, and I thought I'd open a discussion on the Moot to see what you folks thought about it.
For instance, what are your views on book banning? Do you support it, think it's ridiculous, what?

I am very strongly against banning books. I think kids and their own families should be the people to decide - for themselves- what they are capable of reading and comprehending. I see no reason why kids should be sheltered from "sex 'n drugs 'n rock and roll" untill they're 18 or so, and then simply plunged into the real world, head first. I think it's very stupid and pointless to attempt to decide for other people what they can and cannot read.
And anyway, age is an unreliable thing to go by too - "When you're so- and -so age you can read this book." BS! People mature at different rates, and age has nothing to do with what their minds can be able to handle!

There, my two cents . . .

Twilight · 02-06-2002, 11:25 PM

I very much agree that it is the parent's responsibility for what a kid reads or does. Certain things shouldn't be sold to kids under 18 (like dirty magazines), but I see no reason to ban anything altogether. Once a person is considered an adult, they should be able to decide what is best for themselves. It isn't the government;s job to interfere in domestic affairs like that.

FrodoFriend · 02-06-2002, 11:46 PM

I don't think books should be banned. Sheltering people only makes them ignorant. It's better to know things, even if they are objectionable or immoral, so that you can make your own decisions about them.

mirrille · 02-07-2002, 03:00 PM

What are your views on things like hate literature? In my world, this sort of thing would not even find an audience and there would be no need to ban it. But it's obvious that the real world doesn't work that way

and so what to do about it is a problem. I mean, innocent people die when there is too much of this stuff around to fool silly vulnerable people (usually young people) into committing acts of violence. If you were in charge of policy, what would you do? Personally, I hold freedom of expression very highly, but I'd be lying if I said that stuff like this doesn't make me question it once in a while and think that maybe there should be some limits. Not big limits, but there should be something. On the other hand, banning just makes these people go underground, and that makes them even more dangerous...
As for writings or movies with sexual content, a warning should be sufficient so that people who aren't into that stuff will know and don't have to see it if they don't want to. If it's really something younger people shoudn't see, then making it less accessible, like a higher movie rating, should also be fine. I'm actually amazed that stuff like Cosmopolitan magazine sells without any kind of wrapping (to seal the contents) at supermarket checkouts. It's not exactly hardcore, but it is actually pretty explicit. It's fine probably even for people in their late teens, but mothers bring their 6year old kids through those checkouts! ai!

Pornography is a little bit different. But in the main, I object mostly to child pornography. That really should be, and in most cases is, banned. If an adult chooses to be in pornographic material, so long as they were not coerced, it's their choice. But anyone who takes advantage of children in that way deserves the worst punishment possible.

Laurelyn · 02-07-2002, 06:37 PM

Well said, FrodoFriend.
And Mirille, I am also surprised that they leave Cosmopolitan in the checkout lines with the headlines they put on that magazine. "101 ways to make yourself sexier . . ." Ack! And you're right, a checkout line is an awful place to put it.
But that's just bad judgement on where to put something.
And child pornography is awful . . .but I think that's another story and/or thread right there.
Twilight: When exactly is a person considered an "adult?" When they have celebrated their eighteenth birthday, or when they can drink, or when they're 64? Many "kids" are perfectly able to make good decisions for themselves. Their minds have simply matured faster than some other people's their same age (that sentence didn't turn out grammatically correct . . .sorry).
That, to me, is the catch. If people's minds were all the same, then that would be great: As soon as you're such and such you can read this and this.
I think that age, in this and many other matters, is irrelevant.

I'm trying to say what I think here w/o telling you that you're wrong and I'm right . . . because it's not that simple. It's a matter of opinion, and opinion can't be decided easily whether something is right or wrong.

Twilight · 02-07-2002, 06:51 PM

You are right. There is no objective way of determining when somebody truly is an adult. I am over 18, but I don't consider myself an adult yet. I still have a long way to go.
My sense of morality is what my opinons are based on. I feel that some things are wrong no matter what way you look at it. I don't like banning things because I don't trust others to make such an imporntant desision as to what is good and what isn't.
As for the age of purchasing things, all that I can say is that it saddens me that there is such a market for those things in the first place. I believe in parental responsibility. If a parent is okay with a child being exposed to things, then the parent can buy it for the child.

FrodoFriend · 02-08-2002, 12:48 AM

I agree that child pornography is awful and should be banned. However, it would hardly call that literature. I don't think books with sexual content should be banned; sex is perfectly natural and nothing to be ashamed of anyway.

Violence, to me, is much more serious. I've never been influenced by violent books or media, but other people might be. I think something that is written purely to glorify violence . . . well, the author should probably be locked up, but the book shouldn't be out either. But then, who's going to write something like that?

Aragorn · 02-08-2002, 05:21 PM

Judging people by their age is bull ****. I wouldn't be suprised if some young person went to a message board or chat room, lied about their age, succeeded, the people all like them, so the kid decides to reveal his real age, then everyone starts making fun of the kid. Heh, same thing with this. I know some kids that aren't even out of Middle School and have read LotR! Banning books is idiotic and a bad move.

Starr Polish · 02-08-2002, 08:42 PM

Quote:

But then, who's going to write something like that?

You'd be surprised!

Laurelyn · 02-09-2002, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aragorn
Judging people by their age is bull ****. I wouldn't be suprised if some young person went to a message board or chat room, lied about their age, succeeded, the people all like them, so the kid decides to reveal his real age, then everyone starts making fun of the kid. Heh, same thing with this. I know some kids that aren't even out of Middle School and have read LotR! Banning books is idiotic and a bad move.

Aragorn, what you have just said describes me exactly, save for I don't know whether or not people like me, and until now nobody on the Moot know how old I am.
I am 11 years old, in the sixth grade.
Actually, I first read LotR in the third grade, but that's kinda irrelevant.
But I get along better w/ people older than me . . . b/c most folk my age can't carry on an intelligent conversation. Notice I said "most." That doesn't mean all; I've met many who can. No offense to anyone who's my age out there and who's reading this.
I read banned books. If there's sexual stuff in them, I'll keep reading the book only if it's a good book otherwise; something that just rambles on about sex w/ no real storyline gets put back on the shelf, permanently. The characters and their story is what matters to me.
And I hate the phrases "too young," and "inappropriate for my age group." They're pathetic . . . as I have said before.

FrodoFriend · 02-09-2002, 06:47 PM

Laurelyn - wow, you read all of LotR in the third grade! I remember trying when I was in 2nd, not getting through TTT, then trying again, only to give up again! I didn't read the whole thing until 5th. You must be extremely persistent.

I agree about the age thing. I hate it when people assume that I only think about guys and make up (neither of which I am really interested in!) just because I'm a teenager! Every person is different, you can't just assume that a 10 or 15 year old will have a certain level of maturity. Besides, if violent or sexual books influence somebody enough to be a problem, they were probably leaning that way to begin with.

Laurelyn · 02-09-2002, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FrodoFriend
Besides, if violent or sexual books influence somebody enough to be a problem, they were probably leaning that way to begin with.

Yep, most likely they were.

Renille · 02-09-2002, 07:21 PM

You all made really really great points. (And WOW... you guys read LOTR in third and fifth grade?? I didn't finish them until seventh!!! I tried before that, but could not get beyond the council of Elrond... I guess I'm just stupid.)

But back to the topic. I think people should be able to be able to judge for themselves what they are able to read. Their age doesn't matter. But at the same time, literature with graphic sexual or violent material may NOT be best for growing minds, and so should be kept away from it whenever possible. But banning books just takes away freedom of the press and freedom of speech.

BTW, Frodo-Friend, I can relate on the age thing. I'm 15, never wear make-up, and have never had a boyfriend. It's just not my thing, and I don't like it when people call me weird for not fitting into that stereotype. As long as people are respectful and nice, I don't care how old they are...I try to accept them.

Starr Polish · 02-09-2002, 08:01 PM

Hello, I'm 15, I don't wear makeup, I don't do my hair, and I've only had one relationship (that counted). I like it that way!

Laurelyn, wow, 11? I would have guessed older. Just stay smart

Sadly, a lot of really smart people I know changed in the transistion from elementary to junior high, or junior high to high school. THey do it just to be cool. (Lemming syndrome, I call it) Stay smart, I say!

Laurelyn · 02-09-2002, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Starr Polish
Hello, I'm 15, I don't wear makeup, I don't do my hair, and I've only had one relationship (that counted). I like it that way!

*grins*
I jump onto a lot of bandwagons, but not the makeup-wearing-hair-doing-boyfriend-playing-act-cool thing. And unfortunately, it's creeping back to the sixth grade, too . . . ACK! Save me!Heeelp!
As for relationships, I wish I'd never had any, but love is blind . . .*scowls at cupid, and sticks tongue out at his bow and arrows*
Yes, I did read LotR in third grade . . . I started reading it and then got really sucked in, then became a fan, and now, three years later, I'm posting on Entmoot. Tolkien-aholics anonymous here I come.

And starr polish:
By "stay smart" I'mm hoping that means you think I am smart?

Thankies. . . .

Alright, now on topic:

Is there anyone out there on the Moot who thinks banning books is a good idea? If so . . . I'd kind of like to hear the "devil's advocate" speak up here. The other side of the argument often has a ponderable point, and anyway, I need some excuse to quit repeating myself.
"I like to repeat, repeat myself, I like to repeat, repeat . . ." ~Shel silverstien, I think

So, any pro-book-banners?

Starr Polish · 02-09-2002, 09:17 PM

You may not be some super genius kid, but you ARE smarter than a lot of eleven year olds I know, at least from what you write here (I have an eleven year old stesister). I believe you definately SOUND smarter than my 13 year old stepbrother.

Watch out for those bandwagons!

I believe some books should be banned, yes,but not the books that have been banned. I was reading books with violence and sex in them when I was eleven (including V.C. Andrews, which get VERY old) and I am not a particularly violent or 'sexual' person.

Hmm...perhaps books that have severely mature themes in them (incest and the like) should have some sort of warning system. ::shrug::

Laurelyn · 02-09-2002, 09:40 PM

Warning system . . . sure, something saying that "maybe so-and-so shouldn't read this" is a good idea.
However, if you make something forbidden, most kids and/or the people who you didn't want to read that material in the first place will become curious, and want to read it even more.

Starr Polish · 02-09-2002, 09:43 PM

True, very true.

DARN YOU HUMAN NATURE!

Anyway...I don't know, I think parents should be allowed to monitor what their kids read, but I know mine will be allowed to read whatever I read at their age

Laurelyn · 02-09-2002, 09:53 PM

Yes, parents of kids should know what their kids are reading, and if they feel uncomfortable with some of that material, they probably should be able to do something about it. They are, after all, the parents of the kid.

But what never ceases to amaze me is that they ban and censor and whatever to books, but they start no such attacks on movies and TV. Teen movies and whatnot, and TV shows, are lots of times worse than the books that are challenged and banned.

I don't watch TV and I'm proud of it . . .

Starr Polish · 02-09-2002, 09:56 PM

I watch T.V. but only when I'm extremely bored (like right now). It's amazing what kind of **** is on it...bleh.

02-06-2002, 11:06 PM	#1
Laurelyn Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Valinor, right next to Telperion . . . what did you expect, Michigan? Posts: 1,315	Banned Books We're dicussing book banning in my langauge arts class, and I thought I'd open a discussion on the Moot to see what you folks thought about it. For instance, what are your views on book banning? Do you support it, think it's ridiculous, what? I am very strongly against banning books. I think kids and their own families should be the people to decide - for themselves- what they are capable of reading and comprehending. I see no reason why kids should be sheltered from "sex 'n drugs 'n rock and roll" untill they're 18 or so, and then simply plunged into the real world, head first. I think it's very stupid and pointless to attempt to decide for other people what they can and cannot read. And anyway, age is an unreliable thing to go by too - "When you're so- and -so age you can read this book." BS! People mature at different rates, and age has nothing to do with what their minds can be able to handle! There, my two cents . . . __________________ The Third Age of Entmoot has begun. Angel of music, guide and guardian! Grant to me your glory! The country I eat and spend the day in is by no means the country I sleep and dream in. Define patriotism. Hold the boat, you spastic monkey! ~ Elenka

02-06-2002, 11:25 PM	#2
Twilight Elven Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wilmore, KY Posts: 269	I very much agree that it is the parent's responsibility for what a kid reads or does. Certain things shouldn't be sold to kids under 18 (like dirty magazines), but I see no reason to ban anything altogether. Once a person is considered an adult, they should be able to decide what is best for themselves. It isn't the government;s job to interfere in domestic affairs like that. __________________ Sometimes I wonder how many monkeys with typewritters it would take to reproduce what I just wrote.

02-06-2002, 11:46 PM	#3
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	I don't think books should be banned. Sheltering people only makes them ignorant. It's better to know things, even if they are objectionable or immoral, so that you can make your own decisions about them. __________________ Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears

02-07-2002, 06:37 PM	#5
Laurelyn Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Valinor, right next to Telperion . . . what did you expect, Michigan? Posts: 1,315	Well said, FrodoFriend. And Mirille, I am also surprised that they leave Cosmopolitan in the checkout lines with the headlines they put on that magazine. "101 ways to make yourself sexier . . ." Ack! And you're right, a checkout line is an awful place to put it. But that's just bad judgement on where to put something. And child pornography is awful . . .but I think that's another story and/or thread right there. Twilight: When exactly is a person considered an "adult?" When they have celebrated their eighteenth birthday, or when they can drink, or when they're 64? Many "kids" are perfectly able to make good decisions for themselves. Their minds have simply matured faster than some other people's their same age (that sentence didn't turn out grammatically correct . . .sorry). That, to me, is the catch. If people's minds were all the same, then that would be great: As soon as you're such and such you can read this and this. I think that age, in this and many other matters, is irrelevant. I'm trying to say what I think here w/o telling you that you're wrong and I'm right . . . because it's not that simple. It's a matter of opinion, and opinion can't be decided easily whether something is right or wrong. __________________ The Third Age of Entmoot has begun. Angel of music, guide and guardian! Grant to me your glory! The country I eat and spend the day in is by no means the country I sleep and dream in. Define patriotism. Hold the boat, you spastic monkey! ~ Elenka

02-07-2002, 06:51 PM	#6
Twilight Elven Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wilmore, KY Posts: 269	You are right. There is no objective way of determining when somebody truly is an adult. I am over 18, but I don't consider myself an adult yet. I still have a long way to go. My sense of morality is what my opinons are based on. I feel that some things are wrong no matter what way you look at it. I don't like banning things because I don't trust others to make such an imporntant desision as to what is good and what isn't. As for the age of purchasing things, all that I can say is that it saddens me that there is such a market for those things in the first place. I believe in parental responsibility. If a parent is okay with a child being exposed to things, then the parent can buy it for the child. __________________ Sometimes I wonder how many monkeys with typewritters it would take to reproduce what I just wrote.

02-07-2002, 03:00 PM	#4
mirrille Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 479	What are your views on things like hate literature? In my world, this sort of thing would not even find an audience and there would be no need to ban it. But it's obvious that the real world doesn't work that way and so what to do about it is a problem. I mean, innocent people die when there is too much of this stuff around to fool silly vulnerable people (usually young people) into committing acts of violence. If you were in charge of policy, what would you do? Personally, I hold freedom of expression very highly, but I'd be lying if I said that stuff like this doesn't make me question it once in a while and think that maybe there should be some limits. Not big limits, but there should be something. On the other hand, banning just makes these people go underground, and that makes them even more dangerous... As for writings or movies with sexual content, a warning should be sufficient so that people who aren't into that stuff will know and don't have to see it if they don't want to. If it's really something younger people shoudn't see, then making it less accessible, like a higher movie rating, should also be fine. I'm actually amazed that stuff like Cosmopolitan magazine sells without any kind of wrapping (to seal the contents) at supermarket checkouts. It's not exactly hardcore, but it is actually pretty explicit. It's fine probably even for people in their late teens, but mothers bring their 6year old kids through those checkouts! ai! Pornography is a little bit different. But in the main, I object mostly to child pornography. That really should be, and in most cases is, banned. If an adult chooses to be in pornographic material, so long as they were not coerced, it's their choice. But anyone who takes advantage of children in that way deserves the worst punishment possible.

02-08-2002, 12:48 AM	#7
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	I agree that child pornography is awful and should be banned. However, it would hardly call that literature. I don't think books with sexual content should be banned; sex is perfectly natural and nothing to be ashamed of anyway. Violence, to me, is much more serious. I've never been influenced by violent books or media, but other people might be. I think something that is written purely to glorify violence . . . well, the author should probably be locked up, but the book shouldn't be out either. But then, who's going to write something like that? __________________ Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears

02-08-2002, 05:21 PM	#8
Aragorn Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Anywhere but where I should be. Posts: 369	Judging people by their age is bull ****. I wouldn't be suprised if some young person went to a message board or chat room, lied about their age, succeeded, the people all like them, so the kid decides to reveal his real age, then everyone starts making fun of the kid. Heh, same thing with this. I know some kids that aren't even out of Middle School and have read LotR! Banning books is idiotic and a bad move. __________________ And they carried them to the flatlands But they died along the way And they built up with their bare hands What we still can't do today. EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMEDDCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO till the day I die.

02-09-2002, 06:47 PM	#11
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	Laurelyn - wow, you read all of LotR in the third grade! I remember trying when I was in 2nd, not getting through TTT, then trying again, only to give up again! I didn't read the whole thing until 5th. You must be extremely persistent. I agree about the age thing. I hate it when people assume that I only think about guys and make up (neither of which I am really interested in!) just because I'm a teenager! Every person is different, you can't just assume that a 10 or 15 year old will have a certain level of maturity. Besides, if violent or sexual books influence somebody enough to be a problem, they were probably leaning that way to begin with. __________________ Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears

02-09-2002, 07:21 PM	#13
Renille Elven Lady of Speed-posting Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the cheese state Posts: 988	You all made really really great points. (And WOW... you guys read LOTR in third and fifth grade?? I didn't finish them until seventh!!! I tried before that, but could not get beyond the council of Elrond... I guess I'm just stupid.) But back to the topic. I think people should be able to be able to judge for themselves what they are able to read. Their age doesn't matter. But at the same time, literature with graphic sexual or violent material may NOT be best for growing minds, and so should be kept away from it whenever possible. But banning books just takes away freedom of the press and freedom of speech. BTW, Frodo-Friend, I can relate on the age thing. I'm 15, never wear make-up, and have never had a boyfriend. It's just not my thing, and I don't like it when people call me weird for not fitting into that stereotype. As long as people are respectful and nice, I don't care how old they are...I try to accept them. __________________ Oh the thinks you can think! Think and wonder and dream...far and wide as you dare! When your thinks have run dry, in the blink of an eye, there's another world there... (from Seussical the Musical. Listen to it...watch it...really.)

02-09-2002, 08:01 PM	#14
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	Hello, I'm 15, I don't wear makeup, I don't do my hair, and I've only had one relationship (that counted). I like it that way! Laurelyn, wow, 11? I would have guessed older. Just stay smart Sadly, a lot of really smart people I know changed in the transistion from elementary to junior high, or junior high to high school. THey do it just to be cool. (Lemming syndrome, I call it) Stay smart, I say! __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

02-09-2002, 09:17 PM	#16
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	You may not be some super genius kid, but you ARE smarter than a lot of eleven year olds I know, at least from what you write here (I have an eleven year old stesister). I believe you definately SOUND smarter than my 13 year old stepbrother. Watch out for those bandwagons! I believe some books should be banned, yes,but not the books that have been banned. I was reading books with violence and sex in them when I was eleven (including V.C. Andrews, which get VERY old) and I am not a particularly violent or 'sexual' person. Hmm...perhaps books that have severely mature themes in them (incest and the like) should have some sort of warning system. ::shrug:: __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

02-09-2002, 09:40 PM	#17
Laurelyn Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Valinor, right next to Telperion . . . what did you expect, Michigan? Posts: 1,315	Warning system . . . sure, something saying that "maybe so-and-so shouldn't read this" is a good idea. However, if you make something forbidden, most kids and/or the people who you didn't want to read that material in the first place will become curious, and want to read it even more. __________________ The Third Age of Entmoot has begun. Angel of music, guide and guardian! Grant to me your glory! The country I eat and spend the day in is by no means the country I sleep and dream in. Define patriotism. Hold the boat, you spastic monkey! ~ Elenka

02-09-2002, 09:43 PM	#18
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	True, very true. DARN YOU HUMAN NATURE! Anyway...I don't know, I think parents should be allowed to monitor what their kids read, but I know mine will be allowed to read whatever I read at their age __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

02-09-2002, 09:53 PM	#19
Laurelyn Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Valinor, right next to Telperion . . . what did you expect, Michigan? Posts: 1,315	Yes, parents of kids should know what their kids are reading, and if they feel uncomfortable with some of that material, they probably should be able to do something about it. They are, after all, the parents of the kid. But what never ceases to amaze me is that they ban and censor and whatever to books, but they start no such attacks on movies and TV. Teen movies and whatnot, and TV shows, are lots of times worse than the books that are challenged and banned. I don't watch TV and I'm proud of it . . . __________________ The Third Age of Entmoot has begun. Angel of music, guide and guardian! Grant to me your glory! The country I eat and spend the day in is by no means the country I sleep and dream in. Define patriotism. Hold the boat, you spastic monkey! ~ Elenka

02-09-2002, 09:56 PM	#20
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	I watch T.V. but only when I'm extremely bored (like right now). It's amazing what kind of **** is on it...bleh. __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

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