Paris Is Burning

[Lotesse]

Why is Paris burning? Why are the muslim kids burning everything, from Paris and Toulouse now on into Germany and Belgium, and it isn't slowing down? This is a heavy topic, rife with possibility for intense debate. How did it come to this, this surreal revolution/riot of the young minority underclass of France? What really has caused it, and how should (or can) it be amended? How can this sort of thing be prevented - better immigration control?

I'm open to answers and ideas from interested and informed mooters who are up on this craziness developing lately in France.


http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/11/1781854.php

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4415574.stm

[The last sane person]

because, the little **** bunch that are these young muslims, rather then embracing the culture of the new country, want to change it to suit them and their rather ass backwards set of beliefs. Just my opinion though.

[Nurvingiel]

I think it's more complicated than you assert TLSP.

There are a number of factors involved, like France's immigration policy, racism towards people from the Middle-east and northern Africa, the terrible living conditions and poverty in the ghettos, and probably a lot of factors that I don't understand.

There's actually rioting in 300 French cities right now.

This series of events started when two young men who lived in a ghetto outside Paris were killed (they were electrocuted IIRC) when they thought the police were chasing them. They must have had a reason to believe this, and a reason to be scared, even though in this case the police were not actually involved. This tragedy set off the riots; people see the two young men as martyrs.

[Linaewen]

This may be of interest. I haven't had time to read much about this other than that editorial, which does allude to our new anti-terror laws at the end.

[Edit] *Looks at Nurv's post and nods*

[Pytt]

I just read about it on sunday, I think, and then the rioting and car-burning had already lasted a week in Paris. I haven't read much more about it, but your article was very good Lin

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by The last sane person

because, the little **** bunch that are these young muslims, rather then embracing the culture of the new country, want to change it to suit them and their rather ass backwards set of beliefs. Just my opinion though.

Their reluctance to "embrace the culture" can and should also be blamed on the society they live in. If they are alienated, they can't fit in even if they wanted to.
As Nurvingiel said, there are probably lots of other factors behind this as well.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

There are a number of factors involved, like France's immigration policy, racism towards people from the Middle-east and northern Africa, the terrible living conditions and poverty in the ghettos, and probably a lot of factors that I don't understand.

unemployment rates are staggering in that group, too.

[Earniel]

Well, Paris has huge slums where young people have almost no future. Especially young people of foreign origin. But this is more like plain vandalism. I saw an interview with one with the rioters. Said he can't get a job because everyone discriminates against young immigrants, says everyone thinks they steal and aren't worth anything. Said he was bored.

While I can understand how frustrating that can be, I can't exactly say that burning other's people property, beating an old man to death and throwing molotov cocktails at the firemen who come to put out your fires, is going to work miracles on that image.

I think this article may give a better view of the situation although I don't agree entirely with it. The comments below are interesting too.

As for the youngsters who started burning cars in Belgium, I'm pretty sure all they were just inspired by what happened in Paris and decided to have some fun.

[Nurvingiel]

Whoops, double post... nothing to see here...

\/

[Nurvingiel]

Thanks guys.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

unemployment rates are staggering in that group, too.

I was reading an article about this today, and some youth who lived in the ghettos were being interviewed. One commented that their parents came to France for jobs, ones that French people usually didn't want to do, but no one would hire the youths. The group of people being interviewed had nothing to do and, totally bored, just hung out smoking pot. It seems like a lot of young people have little or no opportunities, and rightly feel trapped in a boring, unproductive situation.

It seems, from these events, that racism is a big problem in French society. I had no idea that conditions for these riots even existed in France.

[Skip this meandering bit if you're pressed for time...]
If I couldn't work or go to school I'd probably read a variety of books. But I am lucky enough to get to study Forestry, so Ivan Illich's book "Deschooling Society" remains unread.
However, the reason I like reading so much is ever since I was old enough to sit up, my parents of read to me. Then, when I learned how to read at the age of five, they still read to me, and encouraged me to read on my own.
If my parents had been stuck in long hours in crappy jobs, they wouldn't have been able to afford the 5000+ books in our house, and they wouldn't have had as much time to spend with us kids.
Therefore, I would not have had reading to fill my days with endless pleasure. If I lived in a ghetto, the school (unlike the one I attended) would not have shown me the joys of rugby and art due to lack of funding. If no one would hire me due to racism and a lack of education, what would happen? Bored and jobless, I too would be smoking pot on the corner with my friends.
[/meandering]

The French government has expressed a desire to work towards a solution to these problems, and have condemned the violence. I applaud this attitude, but I sincerely hope this comes with a long term commitment to a solution. Short-term effort isn't going effect useful change.

If you want someone to be integrated in society, they have to feel welcome. Combating racism is difficult but workable. People are no longer horribly racist to First Nations people in Canadian society (though vestiges of this attitude still exist); it can be done. It takes long-term effort.

You can't expect a new-comer to society to shed his or her old culture and immediately and flawlessly assimilate into the new culture. France is not the Borg. France is made up of free-thinking individuals and if you want immigration to be a success, immigrants must be respected as individuals. If they practice a religion found in the minority in France? Take this as an opportunity to learn something new, and practice religious tolerance. Maybe they don't look like a typical French person, and you resent this because you want to keep France "pure". (Apparently this attitude actually exists in France. I don't know how widespread that is.) Well, what exactly does a "typical" French person look like? Racism is completely devoid of logic.

I realize I'm mostly preaching to the choir here, but I hope other people who have some influence over Jacques Chirac and Nicolas Sarkozy are saying the same things.

[Rían]

I think it goes two ways with the racism - from what I've heard, many if not most of the Muslims want to be in France, but fairly separate, and the French have allowed this to a large extent from what they thought were good motives, and this is one of the unintended repercussions. I'll see if I can find an article that expresses this better than I have.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

It seems, from these events, that racism is a big problem in French society. I had no idea that conditions for these riots even existed in France.

The French are a bunch of racist bar stewards!

Just joking: couldn't resist it.

However, EVERY time I have been to France (5 or 6) I have witnessed quite extreme yet casual racism at first hand. It seems to be considered OK to express these ideas in a way that would be unacceptable this side of La Manche. Oh, and of course, the overtly racist Jean Marie Le Pen came second in the last Presidential election.

People often make the mistake of thinking that France is some sort of welfare heaven, where people doss about all day and the state looks after them. That is utter pish. France, like the rest of Europe, is capitalist where opportunities are reserved for select groups of people. So, class in other words. As you have all noted, apart from the ironically named "last sane person", the problem is about vast swathes of people having naff all to live for.

Finally, the French police, especially the CRS, are notorious for the alacrity with which they beat the skulls of scumbags.

If the French want to stop this sort of thing from happening they need to deal with the racism and deprivation.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Why is Paris burning? Why are the muslim kids burning everything, from Paris and Toulouse now on into Germany and Belgium, and it isn't slowing down? This is a heavy topic, rife with possibility for intense debate. How did it come to this, this surreal revolution/riot of the young minority underclass of France? What really has caused it, and how should (or can) it be amended? How can this sort of thing be prevented - better immigration control?

I'm open to answers and ideas from interested and informed mooters who are up on this craziness developing lately in France.


http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/11/1781854.php

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4415574.stm

good ain't it?

course the french don't have a band as good as 'the clash' ... but the racist intolerance and heavy handed nazi style actions of the french sinister interior ministry ... ghettos, attacks on freedoms and culture - economic, cultural and practical alienation and they expect everyone to have a tea party?

bring on the belgians i say!

(although you should note Earniel that i only do as it is one of my all time favorite sayings - comes from stuart hall a tv (and now radio) commenator - does anyone remember 'it's a knock-out' or international 'it's a knock-out!' ?? there were teams from all over europe, in big inflatable costumes, trying to carry water buckets over ropes and avoid giant swinging inflatable balls etc etc ...

the classic phrase was ... 'and here come the belgians!"

and also the seminal almost legendary classic "bring on the belgians!"

don't know why but he had a thing about the belgians ..and it seemed to strike a chord with the nation ... though no one could explain why?

(forget why - is a very excitable bloke old stupot hall )

somethings rotten in the state of france ...

it needs fumigating!

[Butterbeer]

just seen your post there gaffer - you'r right!

[Tamuril Sirfalas]

Originally Posted by Pytt

I just read about it on sunday, I think, and then the rioting and car-burning had already lasted a week in Paris. I haven't read much more about it, but your article was very good Lin

i kinda just learned about it today and WOW it isn't good! i think it deals with racism and religious reasons but i cant be quite sure owning that i learned about it today but racism shouldn't be tolerated.. i think its wrong but you hafta listen to both sides of the story right? you can't just listen to one side and then be like ya you are right we dont hafta listen to the other side of the story..lets blow them up!!!does everything hafta resort to war and riots?oh and yes the french are casually racist and its un believeable i think if they want to stop all this they should listen to the muslims and get there input...they shouldn't hafta use violence against violence( i mean in the past it hasn't looked very well so why repeat?)

[Nurvingiel]

I agree that riots are definitely not the answer. But they are a symptom of aforementioned problems like racism in French society.

(I wasn't under the impression that France was a welfare haven or such like, but I sure was surprised when this happened. I have never been to France though.)

[The Gaffer]

(It should also be said that there is a heavy dose of criminality involved too.)

Unfortunately, it could be that riots ARE the answer. As in, the only way to get mainstream society to take these problems seriously is to torch the place.

How seriously do we think they would be taken if they'd had a march through Paris instead?

[Butterbeer]

well, maybe they could have had a sunday jamboree get together and a good ol' chin wag about it? ... maybe some cucumber (and garlic) sandwiches and sent a letter to the 'le monde'?

...you know the world can be VERY real ... very nasty and very prejudiced .... history teaches us Tamuril (very educational the moot ain't it?? ) ..that in fact violence and the use of arms is one of the few things that can and does bring about change ...

Nurv ... it may not be an answer we like to see, or recommend - but IF it is the only answer available; the lack of choice rather negates the whole question/answer thing ...

i say it is good because it makes the french look like idiots (always a bonus point there )

but mainly because the french need a kick up their arrogant and racist nationalisitic backsides ...

[The Gaffer]

Yes, it's kinda hard to argue that young disenfranchised people should not use violence to achieve their goals whilst bombing the crap out of whatever enemy du jour.

What surprises me is that this sort of thing doesn't happen more often.

[Linaewen]

This is a fairly good article that addresses the necessity for violence in order to be heard. Quite interesting.