LoTR Discussion Project: The Two Towers--Book III, Chapter VI & VII

[Earniel]

Summary: Chapter VI: The King of the Golden Hall

The chapter starts with Gandalf and friends on their way to Edoras, city of the Rohirrim and seat of their King. The reception at the gates of Edoras is luke-warm at best, but at their request they are allowed to meet the king. Yet before doing so they have to leave their weapons, including Gandalf's staff, at the door. Legolas obeys quickly, Aragorn only after some display of stubbornness and only after Gandalf has readily given Glamdring in the care of Háma. Now that both Glamdring and Andúril are staying at the door, Gimli sees no problem to leave his axe behind as well. Gandalf insists on keeping his harmless-looking staff and succeeds therein.

The four enter the marvellous House with the Golden Roof and come before King Théoden, as well his trusted advisor and a lady in white that goes unnamed for at least a page or two. Wormtongue, the King's advisor tries to trade insults with Gandalf. But the formerly grey wizard will have none of it and talks to Théoden directly after disabling Wormtongue with a brief but interesting show of magic. Gandalf then works a different sort of magic to arouse Théoden from his passive, depressed slumber. They take the King to the outside. Éowyn is dismissed. I wonder what she would have thought of all this.

Outside, in the fresh air, Gandalf talks with the king for a while. What he speaks of goes unsaid although we have an inkling what it’s about. After that the King seems rejuvenated and ready to take on Saruman who has been troubling his lands and people for a little too long. Éomer is released from prison and entered into the favour of his uncle again. Wormtongue rejects any sort of reconciliation and the mercy Théoden shows him. So Saruman's little spy is asked to take a hike, which he does but not before showing his true colours.

Théoden gives Shadowfax to Gandalf and weapons and armour to his companions. Yet however eager Théoden is to go and give Saruman a piece of mind, he does not want to leave his people in Edoras ungouverned during his absence, only he doesn't have a suitable replacement, or so he thinks. His people, through Háma, immediately put their trust on his sister-daughter Éowyn. With the people in Edoras in good hands, Théoden and company can finally leave. Éowyn remains behind.


Summary: Chapter VII: Helm's Deep

The weather looks ominous during their ride and they receive equal ominous words from a wounded rider who tells them the Rohirrim armies have been overwhelmed and scattered. Saruman has not only sent his orcs to plague the Rohirrim but also enlisted the help of the Dunlanders. Things look rather bad. Gandalf advises Théoden to take refuge in the Hornburg, in Helm's Deep, where most of the scattered soldiers no doubt will retreat to. The wizard then leaves alone on a non-specified errand.

At night the king's men reach the keep, but with Saruman's armies and the sound of war at their heels. They find that Erkenbrand, the lord of the Hornburg has left the fortress with ample force to defend it, while three quarters of his people hide in the caves behind the keep. (On a side note, I noticed that both Edoras and the Hornburg are right next to a river, it’s nice to see that Tolkien was well aware of the fact that people will always settle somewhere where there’s water.) Erkenbrand himself has, however, not yet returned to the Hornburg and his chances of survival are deemed small. And while the night deepens, Saruman's outnumbering forces lay siege to Helm's Deep.

At midnight the enemy makes his first move. Rain and arrows rain down from the sky on both parties. Flashes of lighting set a threatening mood.

Aragorn and Éomer finally have the chance to draw their swords together and with the help of a few troops and a secret exit, they beat off the first attack on the gate. Gimli, bored with not having enough orcs to chop to pieces, follows them and saves Éomer's life by felling two orcs. The first of a long list.

When the rain is over and the sky clears again, another attack is made through the culvert of the stream and orcs have reached the Deep behind the wall and fight the guards they find there. Gimli spots them and alerts the Rohirrim to their presence by throwing himself of the wall onto the orcs while shouting battle-cries and calling for Legolas to join in the orc-slaying fest. Eager little ankle-biter, this Dwarf. He also aids the Rohirrim to fill up the hole in the wall.

The fighting on the wall intensifies and the defenders have to go deep before they can beat off the orcs and wild men. Unfortunately they're left with little time to relax as the orcs cunningly blow up Gimli's little barrier and a large part of the wall with it. The battle seem to have reached a pivotal point as the defenders are split into two groups and forced to retreat. Many of them retreat to the citadel and Aragorn bars the door as last one in. Gimli and Éomer did not make it to the Hornburg but are said to have retreated with the rest to the caves where –unlike those in the citadel- they should be able to hold almost indefinitely. Their fate remains uncertain. And Legolas regrets not being able to inform the Dwarf of his current count of thirty-nine kills.

Things are really starting to look very grim for the defenders and Théoden has enough to sit in the keep waiting until the orcs drag him out. He decides on one last, heroic sally on horseback at dawn, now that defeat seems inescapable. Aragorn agrees to accompany him on that last ride. But before that he goes to parley with the orcs before the gate. As sunlight is slowly showing itself, he gives the orcs their last warning. The enemy, now drunk with success, jeer and take no heed, in fact they try to throw a large boulder on his head. But there suddenly is a strange faint whisper in the air and as it rises it unsettles the attackers. Was that puny man on the wall right after all? Suddenly they're not so sure of themselves anymore.

They don't have much time to ponder it because on the call of Helm’s horn, the keep opens and the cavalry of the Rohirrim rides forth and strikes down all that comes within swords-reach. The orcs are caught by surprise and are pressed back from the Dike. There the riders of Rohan are met with an interesting view: a large forest appeared out of nowhere.

Caught between the two dangers the orcs mill around until another player unexpectedly joins the battle. The White Rider has found Erkenbrand and his men and the lord of the Hornburg is more than a little wroth to find orcs in his backyard. This seems just too much for Saruman's once great army and they flee into the strange forest. Yet there are more dangerous things than the swords and spears of the Rohirrim under the eaves of these trees and those that entered did not leave it again.

The first battle of the war is finally won.

Art work

The Golden Hall by Joan Wyatt

King Théoden, Éowyn and Wormtongue by the Hildebrandt Brothers

Éowyn before the gates of Meduseld by Michael Kaluta

Helm’s Deep by the Hildebrandt Brothers

The Siege of Helm’s Deep by Joan Wyatt

Legolas and Gimli at Helm’s Deep by John Howe

[continued]

[Earniel]

Maps

Helm’s Deep

Helm’s Deep, different layout

An interesting drawing of the events at Helm’s Deep


Discussion starting points

These are only a few possible discussion points, feel free to add any you’d like.

1) Gandalf goes through a great length to keep his staff with him. Would this be significant? Would Gandalf have been unable to do what he did in Edoras without his staff?

2)

It is not clear to me that the will of Théoden son of thengel, even though he be lord of the mark, should prevail over the will of Aragorn son of Arathorn, Elendil’s heir of Gondor.

Aragorn is more than reluctant to leave Andúril behind when entering Meduseld. He is insistent to keep the sword and even calls upon his lineage from Elendil to prevail over the wish of the King of Rohan. It takes some intervention from Gandalf before Aragorn places Andúril against the wall of the Hall. This episode seems the first ‘Kingly’ display of Aragorn, yet the timing strikes me as odd since Gandalf warned them beforehand not to speak any haughty words until they met the King. Would Aragorn’s reaction as it was have any significance? Is this the start of his ‘campaign’ to reclaim the throne? Or is he just reluctant to part with Andúril which has seemingly never left his side before and which is also the only proof he bears at the moment of his royal lineage?

3)

Quickly now Gandalf spoke. His voice low and secret, and none save the king heard what he said. But ever as he spoke the light shone brighter in Théoden’s eye, and at the last he rose from his seat to his full height, and Gandalf beside him, and together they looked out from the high place towards the East.

Gandalf talks to Théoden a great deal and afterwards the King looks to the East, yet Gandalf later on admits that he has not and can not tell Théoden just where the secret hope for defeating Sauron lies. If Gandalf has not informed Théoden of the Ringbearer and his course, than what could Gandalf have said to get this reaction from Théoden?

4)

�I said not Éomer,� answered Háma. “And he is not the last. There is Éowyn, daughter of Éomund, his sister. She is fearless and high-hearted. All love her. Let her be lord to the Eorlingas, while we are gone.�

Tolkien is often accused of making LoTR women-unfriendly, yet here we have a scene where the Rohirrim immediately and without question accept Éowyn as their temporarily leader. How much do you think this is only a trait of the Rohirrim, or would this be a trait of all people in Middle-earth? Or would Éowyn be a special case and an exception to the rule?

5) Helm's Deep has an interesting lay-out with the Keep at one side of the ravine and the dike across the breadth of the space. and the caves in the back. What does this lay-out add to the battle in your opinion? Does it make it more interesting or just more difficult to keep track of what's happening? Was the lay-out deliberately different from the other sieges (that at Isengard, Minas Tirith and before the Black gate)? Would Tolkien have had a certain, existing fortress in mind when writing about Helm's Deep?

6) Gimli surprisingly seems to take more of a center stage in the battle at Helm's Deep. He saves Éomer, alerts the Rohirrim to the presence of the orcs, oversees the blocking of the River and is endearingly eager to chop something else than firewood. And yet Gimli seems to be consistently ignored by a large part of the fans. How could this be even possible? Rereading this chapter certainly gave me a new appreciation of the Dwarf. What about you?

7) What is your general appreciation of the two separate chapters? If I hadn't been won over yet by FoTR, this chapter had me hook, line and sinker as I believe the saying goes. And this why I wanted to do this chapter so badly and it is also partly the reason why TTT, book 3 is still my favourite part of LoTR . But how is everybody else's opinion on this?

8) Both chapters give us some impressive and moving scenes: Théoden taking Éomer’s sword, the lone rider that tells of the misfortune of the Rohirrim-forces at the fords of the Isen, Aragorn’s heroic guarding of the stairway until everybody has reached the citadel, Legolas and Gimli’s endearing counting game, the appearance of Erkenbrand and Gandalf and many more. What is your favourite scene in these two chapters?


Final note

Again apologies for the four day delay. I was hit with a sudden allergy attack on Friday. (Bastardly birch seeds. ) And my eyes were swollen and itchy for three day that looking at a computer screen was just too much! I really should plan these things better...

[editted for grammar mistakes]

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

nice intro earniel cant think of responses now, but rest assured! i shall return!

[The Wizard from Milan]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

1) Gandalf goes through a great length to keep his staff with him. Would this be significant? Would Gandalf have been unable to do what he did in Edoras without his staff?

It is very likely that Gandalf would have been unable to do what he did (at least in the manner in which he did it) without his staff. We know something about the relationships of the wizards with their staff from what Grima says in this scene and from Gandalf's breaking of Saruman's staff, and it looks like the wizard needs a staff to perform (at least some kinds of) magic.

Extra Discussion starting point
Did Hama knew (or at least hoped for) what happened between Gandalf and Theoden when he let Gandalf take his staff inside the Golden Hall?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by Il Milano Mago

Did Hama knew (or at least hoped for) what happened between Gandalf and Theoden when he let Gandalf take his staff inside the Golden Hall?

Yes, I believe that he hoped that Gandalf could break Grima Catburglar, ahem, Wormtongue's hold on Theoden King.

[CrazySquirrel]

I think both aragorn&Gandalf were more afraid of somebody else touching their weapons than were weak without them

[Artanis]

Lovely intro Eärniel!

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Aragorn is more than reluctant to leave Andúril behind when entering Meduseld. ....

I'm not surprised. The sword was originally forged in Westernesse and probably has some special powers against the evil. It is also an heirloom and a symbol of Aragorn's right as the heir of Isildur to be the king of Gondor. And last, Isildur once defeated Sauron with this very sword, a fact that gives hope to the Rohirrim and the people of Gondor when Aragorn takes Andúril to battle. Likewise, Sauron would know that he has reason to fear the sword and the man who wields it.

[Nurvingiel]

Great summary Eärniel! I really enjoyed your humorous quips, especially "Gimli, bored with not having enough orcs to chop to pieces, follows them and saves Éomer's life by felling two orcs. The first of a long list" and "Eager little ankle-biter, this Dwarf."

At the moment the only comment I can think of is that I was surprised at how okay Legolas seemed with leaving his bow of Lorien in the hands of strangers. In the past, he has proven to be as stubborn as Gimli, and I doubt Legolas was less attached to his bow than Gimli was to his axe.
I can certainly understand Aragorn's reluctance, as well as Gandalf's. I don't think he could have done that magic without his staff, and I think he expected to want to shut Grima up. I'm under the impression that the more obvious magic needs a staff or advanced praparation.

[Butterbeer]

quote from il mago or wizard /milan:
( prior -s as opposed to PS) how the F do you do a manual quote? i can't (ref thelogy thread : i can't see any "quote" button)

Extra Discussion starting point
Did Hama knew (or at least hoped for) what happened between Gandalf and Theoden when he let Gandalf take his staff inside the Golden Hall?

Respect to Hama: as a true man he saw truly: vast majority of the Rohirrim were true to Western, loyal honour.

re: gimli and legless's weapons not a problem - why should it be? - putting their weapons against the door or hall wall? Gandalf evidently wanted to take his staff in - but would still have had power and influence inherent within him esp as recently renewed as a spirit back to Middle earth,

aragorn's time is approaching, the blade has been re-forged, his decision has been made, he is now free of the fate of the ring, his path now lays clear before him, he has not yet decalred himself in guise via (being the rightful owner )the Palantir directly to sauron, but declares himslef openly to Eomer and before the gates of Meduesld but his purpose now before this incident or the drawing of Anduril in batle or shouting "Elendil!" at helms deep is clear and his resolve no longer disguised: should not he lord of the West, of Gondor and Anorien question the rights and will of Theodan: as he says:
were it even a woodman's cot and this no sword but Anduril ....
Gandalf has returned at the turn of the tide from death: Strider is no longer Strider he is Aragorn son of arathorn, heir of Isuldir : we begin to see this through the argonauth and the elven sight of legless the power and majesty via legolas displayed in him then: a sight of the nobility and spirit inherent in Elessar

he is not messing around when he is loath to deliver anduril even potentially to any other: the time for any such tom-foolery is past

Gandalf, as Aragorn (between the lines refers to and mentally winks at ref: staff) wants to take staff in, and it is importanet, but not IMHO totally important: gandalf could still have dealt with Worm and opened up Theoaden's soul and body to long forgotten hope and honour.

just my very off the cuff views!
best Butterbeer

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Artanis

Lovely intro Eärniel!
I'm not surprised. The sword was originally forged in Westernesse and probably has some special powers against the evil...

Actually... by Telchar of Nogrod. It apparently goes back to the first age.

Wonder just how it passed along to Elendil.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Actually... by Telchar of Nogrod. It apparently goes back to the first age.

Wonder just how it passed along to Elendil.

car boot sale?

seriously though, with regard to point 3 i've always wondered about that: inititally you think you know what Gandlaf is whispering to Theoden, but then later he says (something along the lines of) " ...verily that way lies our danger ...but there is a secret hope that even to you Lord of the mark i cannot yet speak openly..."
implying has not spoken of the key strategy in overthrowing sauron and claiming Victory in the War of the Ring: destroying it via Frodo

and fair play too it would not be safe to mention it here and now, when all hope lies in secrecy and Saruman has spies everywhere: also at this point there may still be some question marks over Theoden himself (later wiped away by deed, honour and glory etc)

therefore what is he whispering: there cold be tons of excellent things: but what do Mooters think?

Neither has he spoken of his hope that the Ents may go to war, evidently (this is obvious later that ents weren't mentioned at all)

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

gandalf is informing theoden of all the future plotlines for Eastenders

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

gandalf is informing theoden of all the future plotlines for Eastenders

Are you sure it is not about the new reincarnation of Doctor Who?

1) Gandalf goes through a great length to keep his staff with him. Would this be significant? Would Gandalf have been unable to do what he did in Edoras without his staff?

I agree with what some have said here: "Gandalf would not have been able to do all that he did in Edoras without the use of his staff."

6) Gimli surprisingly seems to take more of a center stage in the battle at Helm's Deep. He saves Éomer, alerts the Rohirrim to the presence of the orcs, oversees the blocking of the River and is endearingly eager to chop something else than firewood. And yet Gimli seems to be consistently ignored by a large part of the fans. How could this be even possible? Rereading this chapter certainly gave me a new appreciation of the Dwarf. What about you?

I considered that each of the FOTR had there own moment to shine and show there importance to the fellowship. Gandalf and Aragorn tended to shine more than others though.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Actually... by Telchar of Nogrod. It apparently goes back to the first age.

Even better.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

1) Gandalf goes through a great length to keep his staff with him. Would this be significant? Would Gandalf have been unable to do what he did in Edoras without his staff?

The clear implication is "yes", IMO; also from Wormtongue's curse that a staff in the hand of a wizard is no mere crutch.

Hama's decision is seen as yet another example of how goodly folks trust their instincts, and in doing so, bring about good things. It reminds me of (I think it was Eomer's line in an earlier chapter) how "the men of Rohan do not lie, and so are not easily deceived". I wonder if it is also tied in with Gandalf's Ring and his mission to inspire others rather than do the deeds himself.

This raises the further question: how then did Wormtongue succeed in bewitching the King?

Originally Posted by Eärniel

If I hadn't been won over yet by FoTR, this chapter had me hook, line and sinker as I believe the saying goes. And this why I wanted to do this chapter so badly and it is also partly the reason why TTT, book 3 is still my favourite part of LoTR . But how is everybody else's opinion on this?

Hear hear! The pacing of Helm's Deep is fantastic. As Saruman's army approaches, "burning rick and cot and tree" as they go, there is a palpable tension. Then we catch glimpses of their torches before we finally get a sense of the size of the force.

One of those few passages in literature in which you are truly, fully submersed and unaware that you are reading a story as it unfolds.

Superb introduction, E!

[Butterbeer]

[QUOTE=The Gaffer]The clear implication is "yes", IMO; also from Wormtongue's curse that a staff in the hand of a wizard is no mere crutch.

Hama's decision is seen as yet another example of how goodly folks trust their instincts, and in doing so, bring about good things. It reminds me of (I think it was Eomer's line in an earlier chapter) how "the men of Rohan do not lie, and so are not easily deceived". I wonder if it is also tied in with Gandalf's Ring and his mission to inspire others rather than do the deeds himself.


you raise a very good point ref gandalf and staff above: esp his ring!

imo for sure the staff is very important, but gandalf wasn't helpless without it and he had his ring and willpower: barring the lightning flash onWormtonbue and the darkness / lightness i don't recallGandalf actually using the staff to "Cure" theoden - except in the movie!!
imo it was more a battle of wills and here i think you are right the ring helped

wormtongues leechcraft and "whisperings" were darkening theoden's mind:gandalf was the west wind blowing free etc:so yeah staff v important: totally important: may be not?

[Elanor the Fair]

Fabulous introduction - very clear and well-ordered!! Now to one of the discussion points...

Originally Posted by Eärniel

4)
Tolkien is often accused of making LoTR women-unfriendly, yet here we have a scene where the Rohirrim immediately and without question accept Éowyn as their temporarily leader. How much do you think this is only a trait of the Rohirrim, or would this be a trait of all people in Middle-earth? Or would Éowyn be a special case and an exception to the rule?

I have never felt that LoTR was women-unfriendly, although I have heard this criticism levelled at it from time to time. The feeling I get from the book is that it is the traits of bravery and courage that are recognised and valued by all the peoples of Middle-earth, be they women or men. It is this understated recognition of women's strength that make the book seem so realistic.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Great summary Eärniel! I really enjoyed your humorous quips, especially "Gimli, bored with not having enough orcs to chop to pieces, follows them and saves Éomer's life by felling two orcs. The first of a long list" and "Eager little ankle-biter, this Dwarf."

Thanks. We aim to please.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

At the moment the only comment I can think of is that I was surprised at how okay Legolas seemed with leaving his bow of Lorien in the hands of strangers. In the past, he has proven to be as stubborn as Gimli, and I doubt Legolas was less attached to his bow than Gimli was to his axe.
I can certainly understand Aragorn's reluctance, as well as Gandalf's.

Yes, it's very noticible in contrast: Legolas who hands over his bow and knife almost immediatly and Aragorn who refuses almost to the point of kindling a fight. In a way I think it stresses a certain carefree Elvishness that I've noticed in Legolas. I remember in a previous chapter how, when they were trying to figure out how the Hobbits ended up in Fangorn, Legolas was nearly joking about them sprouting wings. I was reminded of a certain distance Third-age Elves seem to have of the troubles of Men, much like Galadriel after her 'test'. Distant and near. Still here but not really part of what's happening anymore.

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

seriously though, with regard to point 3 i've always wondered about that: inititally you think you know what Gandlaf is whispering to Theoden, but then later he says (something along the lines of) " ...verily that way lies our danger ...but there is a secret hope that even to you Lord of the mark i cannot yet speak openly..."
implying has not spoken of the key strategy in overthrowing sauron and claiming Victory in the War of the Ring: destroying it via Frodo

Indeed. Of late I'm starting to wonder whether it was not a slip-up of Tolkien himself. That he had at first intended for Théoden to be informed of the Ringbearer yet later reconsidered but failed to remove all elements. Because one has to admit, the scene still fits seamlessly in Théoden's road to recovery.

Originally Posted by mithrand1r

I considered that each of the FOTR had there own moment to shine and show there importance to the fellowship. Gandalf and Aragorn tended to shine more than others though.

Good point, which I think is another accolade to Tolkien's skills. It's not easy dealing with over 9 characters and giving them all -even the ones less important to the overall plot- some quality screen time.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

This raises the further question: how then did Wormtongue succeed in bewitching the King?

By starting out as a genuine councellor and friend, which IMO he really was at some point. GrÃ*ma didn't get into Théoden's good graces overnight, doubtless he was there many years before. The Rohirrim strike me as people who don't give their trust easily, but once you have it, it takes a lot to lose it again. If GrÃ*ma's change from councellor to traitor was very gradual, as I suspect it was, the Rohirrim wouldn't have seen it until it was too late and Théoden was ensnared.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Hear hear! The pacing of Helm's Deep is fantastic. As Saruman's army approaches, "burning rick and cot and tree" as they go, there is a palpable tension. Then we catch glimpses of their torches before we finally get a sense of the size of the force.

One of those few passages in literature in which you are truly, fully submersed and unaware that you are reading a story as it unfolds.

Glad to hear I wasn't the only one who was totally drawn in at this chapter.

Now people, there are still some points undiscussed. No one wanting to discuss point 5, 7 or 8? They're not so difficult, I think.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by earniel

Glad to hear I wasn't the only one who was totally drawn in at this chapter.

i have the same experience also