Lord of the Flies - Entmoot Book Club Discussion

[Sheeana]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
You guys were the ones who said is was most likely an AMERICAN accent - when it's not.

Read it again dumbo. Cass clearly prefaced her statement by saying "to my ear".

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sheeana
Read it again dumbo. Cass clearly prefaced her statement by saying "to my ear".

Maybe YOU should read it again. She said - "The other boys are English (I think), so perhaps Piggy is American."

As for the dumbo comment - I won't come DOWN to your level on that one.

All I did was tell her - "Well then you don't have a very good ear - because we pronounce it - as-muh." YOU then had to throw your 4 cents in as always. We don't pronounce the beginning like "ass" and we don't add an "r" to the end of the word either.

[Sheeana]

Since when did 'Perhaps' = 'Most Likely'?

Yeah, don't come down to my level, cos I don't want you here. [FLAME DELETED].


Last edited by Sister Golden Hair

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sheeana
Since when did 'Perhaps' = 'Most Likely'?

That was after YOU added your comments to it. So don't act like all my responses were only directed at her after you came out of hiding.

Yeah, don't come down to my level, cos I don't want you here. [FLAME DELETED].

Just leave the lord of the flies thread. Your personal feelings about me have nothing to do with this discussion.

If you want to discuss this - take it to IM or e-mail. All I did was say that we do NOT pronounce it that way and then you had to come on.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Okay, this thread is not going to turn into another flame war. If you have nothing to say on the subject of the "Lord of the Flies. then don't post. Stay on topic

[cassiopeia]

Jeez, I didn't mean to start a freakin' flame war. I'm sorry I said anything at all. Good day.

And thanks again, Sheena.

Sorry to be OT, SGH. Leaving now.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
Jeez, I didn't mean to start a freakin' flame war. I'm sorry I said anything at all. Good day.

And thanks again, Sheena.

Sorry to be OT, SGH. Leaving now.

I don't know if you are aware of this - but one of the things that upset me about Sheeana throwing her two cents in - is that it is common knowledge that she has a severe hearing problem. It's ironic that you think she just came out of hiding to stick up for you when she can't hear how we sound. I consider her less than a reliable authority on accents and sounds.

[cassiopeia]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I don't know if you are aware of this - but one of the things that upset me about Sheeana throwing her two cents in - is that it is common knowledge that she has a severe hearing problem. It's ironic that you think she just came out of hiding to stick up for you when she can't hear how we sound. I consider her less than a reliable authority on accents and sounds.

I didn't know Sheeana had a hearing problem. Maybe we need the opinion of some other Aussies/Brits here. I've done a little research on the web, and I can't find any mention of where Piggy is from, so perhaps I'm wrong.

[azalea]

Please be nice, everyone. Like SGH said, let's keep this strictly on topic.
I don't happen to think that discussion of that pronunciation is off topic, so here's my take. The "ar" ending is a common British one for words that end with the "ah" sound in some regional dialects. I imagine Piggy was from the country and the others were from town (Think about Eliza Dolittle, too. I'm trying to think of one of Sam's lines from LotR -- ah, wait, the trolls! Look at my sig -- "mutton again tomorrer." "Can yer cook 'em," and so on).

But I would like to mention that while they do say "cah" for car and "draw" for drawer in Mass., they do say "drawr" for draw (as in "I'm gonna drawr a pictcha and put it in the draw." It gets very confusing. ).

I have to post on ch. 4 later (read: tomorrow) because my husband MUST get on the computer now.

[jerseydevil]

I think they're either all British - or of countries under the British Crown. I do not think that Piggy is American, for one thing - the term auntie is VERY unusual in America and seems to be much more common in Britain. We definitely don't say "ass-mar". As far as I think - Ralph is just being mean or Piggy has a lisp - I do not think it has anything to do with a particular accent.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by azalea
But I would like to mention that while they do say "cah" for car and "draw" for drawer in Mass., they do say "drawr" for draw (as in "I'm gonna drawr a pictcha and put it in the draw." It gets very confusing. ).

I used to know someone in college from Boston - used to be able to do the Massachusetta accent pretty well.

[Sheeana]

OT again, but I have to address this.

Yes, I have a hearing problem. It's about 65% hear loss. With my hearing aids I hear fine. And technically, it's not severe.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sheeana
OT again, but I have to address this.

Yes, I have a hearing problem. It's about 65% hear loss. With my hearing aids I hear fine. And technically, it's not severe.

As you know - my brother has a hearing problem. I would not trust him to tell me how people were pronouncing things - even with his hearing aids.

[azalea]

Okay.
I love the first few paragraphs describing the days. It seems that they are permeated with bad feelings, a sense of menace, something that always makes them feel uneasy and restless. I LOVE the line "the sun gazed down lie an angry eye." Genius.
We also get a short and seemingly out of place description of the "littlun Percival," who is a miserable creature who we are certain to see later (and then is described as "not even attractive to his mother"). I see him as a manifestation of the mood of the entire group. He *appears* like everyone feels inside (and are inside, according to Golding), but they mock him nonetheless, as we know they would. They don't like to acknowledge their homesickness and weakness. We see a glimpse of Golding's satirization of the "proper Englishman," able to be in a bad situation, but act as if nothing extraordinary is happening, and seem to adapt nicely.

He describes the look of the group, and I love the "dubious region inhabited by Simon and Robert and Maurice." Golding, you see, has also given each character either a symbolic role or an archtypal (in terms of this story) role. And each one falls somewhere on the spectrum of the life of a man: the oblivious little ones are the boys, the "dubious region" ones are still boys, but ones who have become "aware" of themselves, then the older ones, who are on the verge of manhood. Although the littluns display traits associated (on a smaller scale) with mankind as a whole, the big ones are the ones who cause the problems that are arising, as they arise in larger scale society as a result of the actions of men. And so the growing of boy into man gradually reveals the evil within.

We see the progression played out in this chapter, with three littluns playing in the sand peacefully, when Roger and Maurice "assault" them. We are to see two key things here: the first is the way the older boys' upbringing/ prior socialization is the ONLY THING holding them back from complete savagry toward the weaker. (Maurice "still felt the unease of his wrongdoing," and Roger's misses when throwing stones at Henry are SOLELY because of the conditioning of civilization, we are told: "invisible yet strong...Round the squatting child was the protection of ...a civilization that knew nothing of him [Roger] and was in ruins." How fascinating!)
The other thing we are shown is how the younger learn from the older how to act toward their fellow man -- after sand is kicked in Perciaval's face (Percival equalling "weakness") by the older boys, one of the other littluns, seeing his reaction, does not display sympathy, but THROWS SAND AT HIM in his turn! The one that does NOT throw sand is then pursued by Roger -- again praying on the "weak."
I love the descriptions of Roger -- his hair and complexion, and his reaction when Jack finds him.
Jack has found a new tool to use in his quest. He loses himself. It is the only way he can make a kill, to paint his face, so that he is no longer Jack. (Of course, he CALLS it camouflage).

[Grrr.]

[azalea]

Meanwhile, we see Piggy continuing to plan, but not implement, and Ralph says his "and an airplane and a tv set" line again. But Piggy doesn't get that he's being sarcastic. Gaolding states what we already know, that Piggy is an outsider.
So they see a ship, but alas, Jack has engaged all of his hunters in hunting, and no one is minding the fire -- it is out. Unfortunately, Piggy cannot leap up the mountain like Ralph can, so his specs don't get there in time to restart the fire before the ship is gone.
The hunters arrive back at the fire, "victorious." What a nice bit of irony. Jack doesn't really care about getting rescued, his victory lies in killing his pig at long last. But Ralph has failed, hasn't he?
The savages with painted faces exulting in the violence they have finally allowed themselves to express ("taken away its life like a long satisfying drink," "'You should have seen the blood!'")come back to an irate Ralph, who finally has it out with Jack about his hunting. Piggy almost gets Jack's hunters to agree with him about the fact that getting the "meat" was a failure in that it took the chance for rescue away, when Jack's bloodlust empowers him to perform an act of violence against Piggy (the buffer imposed by civilization being removed), which breaks one of the lenses on the specs, symbolizing the first major break of the group as a whole from reason. It also makes Piggy even weaker, because of the inability to see as well as before.
But Jack is not off the hook, and has to apologize for his failing, but he is not sincere, it is a way for him to retain his leadership role. And despite the fact that the meat was the very barrier to their rescue, they all devour it hungrily, even Ralph. Jack gets his satisfaction. None is given to Piggy, until Simon makes the sacrifice (don't you all hope you'd be Simon of you were in this situation?) and gives his to Piggy. This annoys Jack greatly, and because he wants his satisfaction ("I got you meat!" = I am the one who holds the power in this situation, and you must come under my control. I insist.)
Lastly, we see the hunters re-inact the kill with glee. Not "Oh, we regret having to do the dirty deed of taking the life away from another living thing," nor a matter of fact "We were able to get some meat," but a thing of joy, passion, glory, "we took it's life, and I'm so glad, I so enjoyed spilling its blood and guts!"
"Ralph watched them, envious [interesting!] and resentful...'I'm calling an assembly...Now."
Brilliant.
[/babble]

[jerseydevil]

Again you bring up great insight Azalea.

As you said - we get the first turning in th book. Jack is reverting to the savage animal. He is disguising his human face - making it more animal like - so he doesn't suffer from the guilt he feels as a civilized human.

I think the book is much better as it goes on. It does follow rather closely to the movie. This scene in the movie is very powerful - where they dance around the fire and where Maurice pretented to be the pig. It's a frenzied atmosphere, as Ralph just looks on at the madness.

Half the group is reverting to animal instincts and the other half is retaining it's humanism.

In the end - Ralph basically declares he is going to try getting control of this out of control animal by calling a meeting. The thing is - it's too late. Jack has got everyone worked up into a savage frenzie.

Jack is only filled with savage emotion now. He doesn't even comprehend that if they had the fire and got off the island - they would have had all the meat they wanted. That they would have been saved. All he is interested in is the killing of the pig and his success - his one and only goal since chapter one.

The breaking of Piggy's glasses - is almost like the fracturing of the group. There is also something about his glasses - if the other lens breaks - they have no way of making a fire. They would most likely never get rescued then. Their rescue lies in the balance of Piggy's glasses - and jack has fractured the group and broken one lens.

[azalea]

Ooh, yes, I love your point about how they could have all the meat they want if they were rescued! I'd never thought about that -- too bad Ralph hadn't either, that might have been a really effective argument! Then again, maybe not. What they (esp. Jack) REALLY want is not meat, but to hunt. The act of hunting and killing is a goal within itself to them, the meat is really just a byproduct, and eating it is like a symbol of their success. (Kind of like cannibalism was to primitive tribes, who would eat their conquered enemies as a way of physically showing how they had "consumed" them in battle. Yuck!)

Out of curiousity, which movie version is the one you've seen? I saw the black and white one from 1963 (again, that was in high school after we'd read the book), but I know there was a version done in '89, which supposedly wasn't nearly as good.

(BTW, I'm ready to move on to the next chapter whenever you are. I wish we had more people participating. Oh, well.)

[jerseydevil]

Azalea - I didn't read all of your second post - because I was trying to get my post out there - but we basically said the same thing about the lens. It's really odd how much our terms matched - like fractured the group.

Originally posted by azalea
Out of curiousity, which movie version is the one you've seen? I saw the black and white one from 1963 (again, that was in high school after we'd read the book), but I know there was a version done in '89, which supposedly wasn't nearly as good.

I haven't seen the 1963 version actually. I have the 1989 version and I like it. It does match rather closely to the book - at least up to this point. There are some things different of course. I haven't watched it since I started reading the book - because I want to read the book on it's own. The frenzied scene in chapter 4 - is almost exactly like the scene in the movie.

After we finish the book discusion - we;ll open this up to everyone and we'll include discussion about the movie as well.

(BTW, I'm ready to move on to the next chapter whenever you are. I wish we had more people participating. Oh, well.)

I agree - I wish more people were participating. It would be better with more discussion. Jonathan has been busy with tests and getting his drivers license. We'll move onto the next chapter and he can include his chapter 4 and 5 discussion together. I know he's still interested - just busy right now.

[jerseydevil]

Lord of the Flies
Chapter Five: Beast from Water

[azalea]

Here we have Ralph finally achieving a certain level of understanding. He's learning how to be a leader. There are several references in this chapter to the lock of hair in his eyes (and the foreheads of others, as there were in previous chs., but in this one it is very noticable). I think this has a symbolic meaning, I THINK it has to do with the level of clarity involved in the thought or communication; for instance, when he flicks the lock off his forehead, it symbolizes his clarity of thought, and ability to effectively convey that thought to the group. Also, the fact that in the beginning, the hair of all of the boys is short, but then as they are there longer, it gets longer, symbolizing not only their physical separation from civilization, but also their gradual loss of clarity (as a group, aside from Piggy's whose hair "never seems to grow," as mentioned in the last ch.) in terms of group behavior, working toward a common goal, etc. I'm also thinking of Roger described as having his hair down in his eyes when he throws the rocks at the one boy -- not only does it again evoke the "animal" within, but also a growing "filter" through which the boy can no longer "see" civilization.

Golding spends a long segment here describing the shape of the triangle where the assemblies take place. This is where I do wish we had an in depth commentary on the book, because I'm sure there's some symbolism in having the hunters to his right, the rest on the left, etc. We see through Ralph's eyes how he is starting to understand things, but cannot completely understand them yet ("...again he lost himself in deep waters," etc.). The part about how the littluns keep falling off of that log (representing deviation from the matters of importance, going off on a tangent completely unrelated to the rescue, etc.) where it states that for some reason none of them think to wedge it so that it doesn't happen, I think is a way of saying that none of them really wanted to discuss the important matters really, they welcomed comic relief, an excuse to go off topic, and render the leader ineffective. Also, the fact that this assembly will be held in the late afternoon, so that their faces will look differently to Ralph is a way of saying he is looking at both them and the situation differently now. But alas, he says, "I can't think. Not like Piggy." He acknowledges his limitations and also the fact that Piggy has a certain importance and power that neither he nor the others possesses. "Ralph was a specialist in thought now, and could recognize thought in another." What a great line. We are also seeing the boy becoming a man. No more do we see the headstands, the silliness that used to define him. He is becoming like Piggy in another way (Piggy being like the "grown-up" of the group. We have Ralph growing up in one way, very differently from the "base" man-like behaviors of Jack, no longer a choir boy [again, a bitingly funny irony that Golding has made the epitome of innocence and purity the group that ends up displaying the behaviors epitomizing the very worst in mankind!], but an expert aggressor.
Ralph takes control of the meeting, and is determined to say what must be said before it gets off topic and out of his control, as it always has in the past. Golding has Piggy outside the circle at first, "as a gesture of disapproval" -- I didn't quite get what he was diapproving of, but again, I'm sure there's symbolism there.
I love the wresting back of control after he says "if you're taken short" meaning if you're out of range of the proper place to "go," and everyone takes that as a way to "stop" the meeting, but he brings them back in. We see more of what's going on, more animalistic, uncivilized and frankly stupid behavior ("going" where your food is, starting fires whereever).
Then Ralph brings up the "fear," the "beast." He is trying to tell them there is nothing there to fear. This fear represents something they cannot put their finger on, but can feel. What it is is that parallel symbolism I've spoken of: not only is Golding making a statement on the structure of society, but also the psyche of man, the inner self, what makes up a human being (which relates back again to society -- man's interaction with other men).
I'd better post this, and continue it on the next one, or else it'll be too long for this one, so hold on...