Lord of the Flies - Entmoot Book Club Discussion

[jerseydevil]

This is reserved for Entmoot Book Club participates.
Anyone is welcome to join - please see the The Entmoot Book Club for details.

A few rules...

1) Please do not post anything related to chapters beyond the current one we are reading.
2) If you have any suggestions in how to run the book club - please make them in the meeting thread - The Entmoot Book Club. This thread is solely for the discussion of the Lord of the Flies.
3) Please specify the Chapter you are talking about in the subject line of the post. There will also be a large heading post that will seperate each chapter.


Since this is the first book and this concept is just experimental right now - I'm sure there will be changes to the format. Don't hesitate to make suggestions.

Right now everyone should be on Chapter One - "The Sound of the Shell". We'll work on chapter 1 for 3 - 7 days. This should give everyone enough time to read the chapter and hold a discussion about it.

Again none of this format is etched in stone. We'll make changes as we see how this works.

[jerseydevil]

Lord of the Flies
Chapter One: The Sound of the Shell

[azalea]

It looks like no one wanted to be the first to post!

Using what I already know about the book from having read it in high school, and also using the notes in the back of the book (by E. L. Epstein), I'll go ahead and bring up the symbolism in the book. This may help those for whom this is the first reading of it.

The reader has to pick apart the dialogue a little to determine what the situation is (it isn't told to us outright, but we can glean that the boys were being transported somewhere due to an atomic war being waged in England and elsewhere (we aren't told the details, but I happen to think that it is to be inferred due to circumstances during the time of the writing of the book that it's a result of Cold War hostilities -- the USSR vs. the Western world). The "men with megaphones" are intriguing, I assume they are part of the military or something, similar to the people who organized the train transports of Londoners' children during WWII. The plane has crashed on an uninhabited island, leaving only about, what would you say, 30 boys?

Ralph, the main character, is supposed to represent civilization (and in a kind of parallel symbolism, a typical boy).
Piggy represents intellectualism/ reason. His guidance of Ralph (but inability to take on the leadership role himself) are indicative of the way society depends on sciences and reason in the formation of effective government. Without them, effective government is impossible, but alone they cannot govern, they must have a conduit to buffer themselves from those being governed. An effective leader must be able to relate to the people and vice versa, and for "the masses," it takes one of their own.
The conch represents order. The boys are thrilled that someone has taken charge, they all come immediately to answer the call, and because it was Ralph that had the conch, he was the one they wanted for their leader. Piggy knew he would make a better leader in terms of knowing what needed to be done, but conceded to Ralph, since no one wanted him. He contented himself with being the advisor.

The funny thing is how Ralph was not seeking the leadership role, and was happy to go about his business, but Piggy's relentless pursuit of him from the "scar" (such an odd term for the path the crashing plane made through the forest), and how he urged him to blow the shell to call the boys together forced the situation on him.
Jack's gang almost seems military, and he wants to be the leader as well, but since the majority votes for Ralph, he too assigns himself a supporting role, to be sure that he can assert some influence on what is to happen.

The island itself is Paradisic (is that a word?), and Ralph, Jack, and another boy, Simon (who faints a lot, and ends up representing a couple of different things, depending on how you look at it -- one being morality/ religious spirituality [particularly Christian -- this is hinted at when he sees the flowers and calls them candles -- the other two boys find no use in them] and also the boy growing into man, as we'll see later) go off to explore it completely. It is small, and they return at the end of the chapter. As they return, they discover that there are wild pigs on the island. A baby one runs out and Jack thinks to kill it for food, but can't bring himself to actually slaughter the thing. This is his civilized restraint, and it is clear that he regrets that he was not able to do the task. He covers up his weakness by making excuses as to why he didn't kill it, and is determined to go through with it the next time. He doesn't like that weakness in himself. That is the beginning of what leads to later events.

Okay, your turn!

[jerseydevil]

Wow - I didn't get all that. But I didn't read the back of the book for the symbolism.

The dialogue is a little confusing keeping track of who is talking. Also - the descriptions - like Ralph all of a sudden standing on his head for apparently no reason while start walking down the beach to the mountain. Some things just seem to come out of no where.

[azalea]

Have you read it before? If not, you'll see the symbolism stand out more as the book progresses. Of course, much of what I said was babbling.
I think more people will join in the discussion as we get further into the book, because really, there's not much to say about the first chapter; it's mostly introductory. But it is engaging reading, IMO.
Standing on the head -- yes, seems a little out of place, but it is just a device to give the reader a deeper impression of his "boyishness." He is relatively carefree at this point, despite what he's just come from (war, plane crash, realization that he's stranded).

[cassiopeia]

I didn't realise even the conch had some type of symbolism, although the jacket of my copy says there is allegory and parable in the book.

This is the first time I've read the LOTF, so these are my first impressions. I found it a little hard to get into -- and I've still only read the first chapter. I was a little confused about the characters -- who's who, but their situation (being stuck on an island) was clear enough. I'm curious about where the adults are: did they all die, or were there no adults on the plane? Or maybe I missed something in the first chapter.

I certainly will be reading the next chapter with symbolism in mind.

[jerseydevil]

I found this site that I thought might help with our discussion. There is a summary for each chapter.

Lord of the Flies: Information, Analysis, and Discussion

[azalea]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
I didn't realise even the conch had some type of symbolism, although the jacket of my copy says there is allegory and parable in the book.

This is the first time I've read the LOTF, so these are my first impressions. I found it a little hard to get into -- and I've still only read the first chapter. I was a little confused about the characters -- who's who, but their situation (being stuck on an island) was clear enough. I'm curious about where the adults are: did they all die, or were there no adults on the plane? Or maybe I missed something in the first chapter.

I certainly will be reading the next chapter with symbolism in mind.

There was a pilot on the plane who we can presume is dead, and it is left ambiguous about adults in the world outside. It is unclear if they mean the "men with megaphones" were on the plane or what.

BTW, careful about the site that JD posted, it has major spoilers.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by azalea
There was a pilot on the plane who we can presume is dead, and it is left ambiguous about adults in the world outside. It is unclear if they mean the "men with megaphones" were on the plane or what.

I think they were on the plane. I think they were like chaperones or something. I have to try seperating the book from the movie. I think I'm going to reread the first chapter again.

BTW, careful about the site that JD posted, it has major spoilers.

Yeah - it does. I was going to add that, but I thought people would be careful with it.

[sun-star]

I thought the first chapter was pretty hard to get into, but I liked it. I liked the way it set up a typical Boy's Own, stranded-on-a-paradise-island scenario (as that site says, it's like RM Ballantyne’s The Coral Island), which is clearly going to turn badly wrong.

What genre would you call this novel? Maybe it will become more obvious as I read more (I know the basic story, though not the outlines), but I can't fit a name to it at the moment.

[azalea]

I'm not sure about the exact genre: it could be realistic fiction or maybe sci-fi. Later it has a little element of fantasy, too, depending on how you read it.

[Jonathan]

I think that the first chapter was comparatively easy to get into, though it annoyed me that I couldn't alkways keep track of who was talking.

How many are the boys? I got the feeling that there were about 20 of them. They are stuck on this beautiful paradise island.
The crashed plane and the "scar" that it made through the forest are undoubtedly symbols of man's destruction. When Man comes to Paradise, Man has to leave a path of destruction behind him. That is a little sad, Golding didn't think high of the human race

Does Simon suffer from narcolepsy, or why does he have a habit of fainting like that? What does that symbolize?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Jonathan
The crashed plane and the "scar" that it made through the forest are undoubtedly symbols of man's destruction. When Man comes to Paradise, Man has to leave a path of destruction behind him. That is a little sad, Golding didn't think high of the human race

You are right about the scar and the fact that Golding really didn't think highly of the human race.

Does Simon suffer from narcolepsy, or why does he have a habit of fainting like that? What does that symbolize?

The site that I presented doesn't tell what the fainting means - but here is the symbolims of what is introduced in the first chapter...

Piggy (and Glasses): Clear-sightedness, intelligence. Their state represents the status of social order.
Ralph, The Conch: Democracy, Order
Simon: Pure Goodness, "Christ Figure"
The Island: A microcosm representing the world
The "Scar": Man's destruction, destructive forces

I'll leave off Ralph and Jack - because they haven't really been as introduced as those things.

Some things I question in regards to the symbolism of stories. How much of it is just people putting things between the words and really what the author was thinking (oh - I'll have this represent democracy". I find it hard to think that authors really think like that. I think the majority of time symbolim just develops through interpretation by others. The author may have wanted to present a certain idea - but did they really consciously think of all these meanings in their stories while writing?

And here is the artist rendering of the island....

http://www.rit.edu/%7esjg2490/lotf/m...slandsmall.jpg

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I think the majority of time symbolim just develops through interpretation by others.

Could be. But at least in the first chapter of this book, I found some symbolism quite obvious (like Piggy representing reason). And Azaela said that the symbolism will "stand out more as the book progresses".

Does Piggy's asthma symbolize anything? Perhaps one will understand its symbol later in the book.

Originally posted by jerseydevil
And here is the artist rendering of the island....
http://www.rit.edu/%7esjg2490/lotf/m...slandsmall.jpg

Wow, it looks very much like the island that I had imagined

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Jonathan
Does Piggy's asthma symbolize anything? Perhaps one will understand its symbol later in the book.

If anything - I would think that the asthma represents the weakness of just having intelligence. Also - I think it may have a meaning because Ralph seems to purposely be condescending toward it by calling it "ass-mar". Does that indicate that he doesn't think too highly of intelligence - if that is what Piggy represents?

[azalea]

I think it does two things -- it points to his being ineffectual -- asthma representing someone who isn't able to physically exert himself -- IOW, he's not a "survivor" in the physical sense of the word. He wouldn't last long on the island without the others who can do the heavy lifting and hunting. The brain can't exist without the body, and the body must be able to keep itself alive. Secondly, and obviously, he's a nerd, guys, c'mon! Isn't it typical that both "normal" and "tough" boys pick on the weak and nerdy ones? There's that survival thing again. Ralph ("common Man") shows that he has a disdain for Piggy (Intellectualism), probably because he doesn't completely understand it (him), and doesn't fully realize it's (his) importance to him.

I know what you mean JD, about did Golding really think about each symbol as he wrote it, that it seems that would get in the way of writing a story, and why would he set out to purposefully write each symbolic element? To me it just speaks to his genius, that he was such a good writer that it came naturally that he was able to write a good story that included all the rich sybolism automatically. He wanted it in there to speak to the reader and make him think. That's why we all (most of us) had to read it in school: it's a textbook example of the use of symbolism in writing. What better way to allow young students to practice literary analysis?
But it is true that you can read so much into any story, and this one especially you can come up with symbolism that the author may not have intended. You could say:
Island = Eden
Ralph= Adam
Piggy = Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil
When Ralph, like Adam, interfaces with Piggy (bites the fruit), his paradise is lost, and human conflict begins.
I don't know if that's really something that I was intended to see, but I can see it. All the symbolism one sees may not be intentional, but it is clear that he did want the basic symbolism that is there.
[I always think of Chaucer's Wife of Bath and her gap teeth when I talk about symbolism in literature -- that the gap, among other things, was to tell the reader that she was wealthy. The modern reader has to be told that, but in those days, it would be obvious. Just like when we read about Piggy talking like a grown up, fiddling with his glasses, physically inept, we are supposed to read him as the stereotypical nerd. Two hundred years from now, those things may not represent the same thing they do now -- people then may not understand, and have to be told in commentary what those things meant to a contemporary reader. I think that's funny to think about. ]

Simon's "spells" are supposed to be another trait that identifies him as a religious figure -- it is supposed to hearken to the mystics that received divine messages. But like Piggy, he is physically weak, and this doesn't bode well for his survival -- he must rely on the strong.

Edit: Oh, and I definately have a much more optimistic view of humanity than Golding! I think the world events at the time really affected him and others -- it seemed that things were quickly going downhill and were out of control. As we have come out of the Cold War, we have seen that things can be resolved, and we have a more optimistic view. I also happen to truly think that most people are good, and want to support their fellow man.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by azalea
I think it does two things -- it points to his being ineffectual -- asthma representing someone who isn't able to physically exert himself -- IOW, he's not a "survivor" in the physical sense of the word. He wouldn't last long on the island without the others who can do the heavy lifting and hunting. The brain can't exist without the body, and the body must be able to keep itself alive. Secondly, and obviously, he's a nerd, guys, c'mon! Isn't it typical that both "normal" and "tough" boys pick on the weak and nerdy ones? There's that survival thing again. Ralph ("common Man") shows that he has a disdain for Piggy (Intellectualism), probably because he doesn't completely understand it (him), and doesn't fully realize it's (his) importance to him.

I agree - that's why I find it hard to believe that an author would necessarily consciously think - "oh I'll have Piggy represent intelligence". As you said - it is very nerd like behavior - the thick glasses, the asthma, even to some extent the being picked on and overweight. So is it really symbolism or is it just that Piggy is the cliched intelligent person who others don't like. He's the person that always gets picked on and made fun of and has no friends and who is the "goody goody". He is the real "momma's boy" with his "My auntie..." comments all the time.

To me it just speaks to his genius, that he was such a good writer that it came naturally that he was able to write a good story that included all the rich sybolism automatically. He wanted it in there to speak to the reader and make him think. That's why we all (most of us) had to read it in school: it's a textbook example of the use of symbolism in writing. What better way to allow young students to practice literary analysis?

I actually don't think it takes that much to write a symbolic book. All books are written to get a point across and can - with enough analysis from the reader - mean anything. I'm currently reading the Janet Evonovich books Ruinel recommended to me. I can go through there and pick out all the characters and probably come up with symbolism for each one. But I seriously doubt that Evonovich even attempted to write a story with "morals" or a "message", yet we can analyze it and come up with all different kinds of meanings. I've always questioned so called literary experts who declare the symbolism of a book.

But it is true that you can read so much into any story, and this one especially you can come up with symbolism that the author may not have intended. You could say:
Island = Eden
Ralph= Adam
Piggy = Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil
When Ralph, like Adam, interfaces with Piggy (bites the fruit), his paradise is lost, and human conflict begins.
I don't know if that's really something that I was intended to see, but I can see it. All the symbolism one sees may not be intentional, but it is clear that he did want the basic symbolism that is there.

That is very true. Depending on the point of view of the reader - you can get many different interpretations. You can easily look at it from a religious view point - Piggy is the one who gets the Conch for Ralph and shows him how to use it - leading Ralph into his position.

As for your other points - it would be interesting to see how people two hundred years from now deal with our literature. For one thing - chances are they won't even have glasses - everyone will get surgery to correct bad eyes.

I also don't have as down a view on the world as Golding does or anywhere near that. The world I feel is going through a rough time right now - but I think the future will get better.

As an aside - although I haven't seen it mentioned - the nudity can have meaning to it. Ralph stripping off his clothes and being free of the old civilization and being reborn - and then cleansing himself in the pool. When he puts his clothes on - it's back to reality and conformity. I also can't picture a 12 year old doing some of the things he does while he is naked - they seem too carefree and uninhibited. For instance - standing on his head and pretending he's an airplane and then "crashing" in front of Piggy.

[azalea]

It's hard to explain, but I think Golding didn't have to conciously think of what would represent what while writing -- I think he (and authors like him with their stories) sees it that way already. His visualization of the story already includes the symbolism. I agree with you that it can ruin a story (esp. in a class) to have it picked apart, with the so-called expert telling you what you're supposed to see when you read it. I was always annoyed at school when you were tested on your knowledge of what such and such meant. But in this case I am positive the basic symbolism was intentional, one reason being that it was widely analyzed at the time of its publication, when the author himself was still alive, and could discuss his motivations for the different elements of the story. I think there are other authors like him, who use symbolism, and it isn't something they have to formulate, it is already a part of the story they wish to write, before they even start.
There is one part of the book the symbolism of which is discussed in the commentary in the back that I won't mention right now, because we'll be discussing it when we read that ch., but I'll be interested to hear what everyone thinks of that when the time comes. It isn't the kind of thing we discussed in our high school class!

The nudity: I agree, when I read it I think "wow, that sure is unabashed of him." But I think partly that it is a fifty year old book, and skinny dipping and that kind of nudity wasn't uncommon. I think I remember Tom Sawyer and his pals doing something like that, and then there are the hobbits after the Barrow Downs. I think it's the same type of thing, I guess. [And also, like you said, there is some symbolism, or a "message to the reader" if you prefer , that was to show the free, unrestrained aspect of the situation]. But still, I know what you mean, about all the nude acrobatics!

[jerseydevil]

Lord of the Flies
Chapter Two: Fire on the Mountain

We can still talk about Chapter One - but I thought we should move onto Chapter Two now.

[azalea]

Yay!
I just finished reading it, so I guess I'll make some comments.

Here we see Jack asserting himself in a power position more, and his choir boys taking on not only the role of hunters, but also of fire-tenders (a job of importance) and "peace-keepers." (Interesting contrast -- choir boys vs. "military force"). Seehow eager they are (esp. Jack) at the prospect of being able to use force, whether it be killing pigs or "doinking" rule-breakers.

The conch takes on an even more important role -- Ralph decides that it will determine who has the "floor," in the intrest of establishing order, and yet giving everyone a voice.

While the boys are engrossed in their setup of governance, Piggy reminds them of the most important matter -- gettting off the island. He has the foresight to see that their resources cannot last indefinately, and that they nood to have a plan.
The others focus on how they'll be living as if in an adventure story, and I think Ralph plays this up a little, the good leader diverting the People from getting too worked up about a major problem, in the interest of avoiding pandamonium.

The small boy and his tale of the "beastie" -- this will figure prominantly later on, as you might have been able to tell.
The others try to explain it away, but when the boy is so adamant about it, they begin to half believe him. Ralph, however, insists "there isn't a beastie!" Again, the good leader trying to keep everyone calm, but also some of that alternate symbolism coming into view -- the typical boy trying to deny the existence of ... but I can't say or it'll give away too much.
Jack's solution is of course that if there is one, they'll kill it.
Ralph turns the talk back to the rescue, and puts a positive slant on it by saying how his dad's in the Navy, etc., we're sure to be rescued. Esp. interesting the line ".."Jack who was smirking and showing that he too knew how to clap." While Piggy's admiration is genuine, Jack is just demonstrating support of what was said because it was popular with the people and he wants to show he's a team player.
Ralph suggests a fire, and to Piggy's chagrin, instead of formulating a plan for this, the whole group takes off into the forest to gather wood "like a crowd of kids," a description that is especially funny to the reader, because that is just what they are! A bit of foreshadowing -- they take off AFTER JACK even though Ralph, the leader, is still standing there holding the conch. Just how seriously do the rest take that symbol of order? We see earlier in ch. 2 how it is a struggle for Piggy to "have the floor" when he has it, because everyone keeps talking.
He understands what needs to be done and how, but cannot effectively communicate it to everyone, even to Ralph, who ends up going ahead after the rest.
(Continued...)