Lord of the Flies - Entmoot Book Club Discussion

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by azalea
I'm not sure what you mean by this. What are you refering to?

The part of the island with the land bridge. It just seems strange that after all this time - they wouldn't have explored that part. I know I used to explore the woods all the time and if I was on the island - I would have been there in the first couple of days. I would have known all the parts of the island.

I'll try to explain in my long-winded and not so eloquent way what I think of this passage:...

Well do you think that Ralph was physically hit? Do you think that Piggy tried to poke him? I understood everythign that you said - but it seems like "violent swing to Ralph's side" comes out of no where.

[azalea]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
The part of the island with the land bridge. It just seems strange that after all this time - they wouldn't have explored that part. I know I used to explore the woods all the time and if I was on the island - I would have been there in the first couple of days. I would have known all the parts of the island.

Oh, yes, I see. Most surprising is that Jack hadn't explored it, since he had explored most of the island. Maybe he just hadn't gotten around to it, or didn't bother since he could see no pigs were there, and because he got spooked on occasion he decided not to go anywhere else if there weren't pigs. As far as the others, my guess is that it was the fear (both of a beast and of the falling dark) and the afternoon heat that kept them from going thus far.

Well do you think that Ralph was physically hit? Do you think that Piggy tried to poke him? I understood everythign that you said - but it seems like "violent swing to Ralph's side" comes out of no where.

No, I'm quite certain Golding means an immediate, perceptable, extreme swing of the "masses" back to Ralph's "side" of the battle between he and Jack (the battle of leadership). The particular use of the word "violent" makes it seem physical, but I think you're supposed to see it as almost physical, a reference to the way the masses are so willing to be swayed one way, then so far back around to another viewpoint, political sympathy or what have you. I have found as I proceed through the book that Golding seems to use these ambiguous phrases, and I can't tell if he's doing it intentionally, or if it's an area of weakness in his skill as a fiction writer. There were a couple of things like this that were confusing to me (I wish I could remember at the moment what they are, but they might be in later chapters -- as I mentioned I have started reading ahead).

Yeah, when I keep rereading the quote you posted, it does make it seem like a very physical fight, but I'm sure that he wouldn't just drop that in there, and then leave it, and it's clear to me from the sentences leading up to and away from that that he's talking about the "will of the crowd." I think it may be a glitch in the narrative, where he was trying to evoke the image of a physical fight in the case of a very subtle non-physical "battle," but it ends up sounding somewhat awkward.

I better post this before my stupid ISP kicks me off line for being "idle." Good grief.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by azalea
Oh, yes, I see. Most surprising is that Jack hadn't explored it, since he had explored most of the island. Maybe he just hadn't gotten around to it, or didn't bother since he could see no pigs were there, and because he got spooked on occasion he decided not to go anywhere else if there weren't pigs. As far as the others, my guess is that it was the fear (both of a beast and of the falling dark) and the afternoon heat that kept them from going thus far.

See I think that it might have something to with the situation, The new changes taking place. Maybe again - finding the unknown - like they are going into an unknow with no society. It's hard to explain - but there are passages like this...

He (Ralph) was surrounded on all sides by chasms of empty air. There was nowhere to hide, even if one did not have to go on. He paused on the narrow neck and looked down. Soon, in a matter of centuries, the sea would make an island of the castle. On the right hand side was the lagoon, troubled by the open sea; and on the left ---

Ralph suddered. The lagoon had protected them from the Pacific: and for some reason only jack had gone right down to the water on the other side. Now he saw the landman's view of the swell and it seemed like the the breathing of some stupendous creature....Down, down, the waters went, whispering like the wind among the heads of the forest... Then the sleeping leviathan breathed out, the waters rose, the weed streamed, and the water boiled over the table rock with a roar. There was no sense of the passage of waves; only the minute-long fall and rise and fall.

It just seems very desolate, very removed from anything they have experienced. On one side calmness - no the other side violent seething waves. Almost like society without laws. The emptiness of air and the fact that there is no where to hide is almost like the situation Ralph is in with the group. He's the leader and can't hide from his responsibilities - but in some ways I think he wishes he wasn't in charge. I just think this passage has a lot of symbolism with it.

Yeah, when I keep rereading the quote you posted, it does make it seem like a very physical fight, but I'm sure that he wouldn't just drop that in there, and then leave it, and it's clear to me from the sentences leading up to and away from that that he's talking about the "will of the crowd." I think it may be a glitch in the narrative, where he was trying to evoke the image of a physical fight in the case of a very subtle non-physical "battle," but it ends up sounding somewhat awkward.

With this - I can see what you are saying. And it is sentences like these that seem to come out of nowhere. It's hard to picture what is going on sometimes. But I agree that it is probably the wave of the crowd.

[jerseydevil]

Lord of the Flies
Chapter Seven: Shadows and Tall Trees

I figured we would move on. It seemed like chapter 6 was finished.

[azalea]

Yes! I was going to post on it today, but didn't have time. I'll hopefully do it tomorrow, I have to get off line soon.

[azalea]

I'm going to post my commentary notes on ch. six, then my thoughts about ch. 7. After you guys post, I'll post my ch. 7 commentary notes. Would anyone mind if I went ahead and did ch. 8 on Friday? I feel we need to move a little more quickly. If you haven't had time to post on ch. 7 by then, you could still post on it even if I've done my ch. 8 impressions. Let me know if that's okay.

Here are some notes I gathered from the commentaries on ch. 6:
(This might be a little redundant)
The dead parachutist is their sign from the world of adults, a result of the war. The sign is saying "we, too, are the beast." Golding stated that he symbolized the past. The legacy of the older generation is passed down to the younger generation, who are expected to accept and follow.
The parachutist is also seen to represent "fallen man" (he is literally a man who has fallen, meant to represent the man who has spiritually fallen from grace, more about this in a later ch.). The evolution of parachutist from man to monster illustrates fear's effect on the human mind. Golding holds the view that fear and evil spring from the same place in man's soul. He again uses crisis to measure the strength of each character:
Jack's temper furthers him in the facist role, he believes in division of the ruler and the ruled, there are those who make the decisions and those who must accept them. This is illustrated in the part where he says everyone knows who the leaders are without the conch.
Ralph seeks for there to be harmony in the group (voting the beast out of existance -- if the majority rules that it doesn't exist, everyone must accept that it doesn't.)
Also, at the rock, Jack sees possibilities, whereas Ralph is repulsed, which gives us some foreshadowing.
Simon's view of the beast as "a man both heroic and sick" is the most accurate answer as to whether the beast exists or not. Man (according to Golding) is heroic, as shown by Ralph's faith in man's power to survive and remain civilized, but that faith won't hold sway over the less noble of the group (the ones personifying the "sick" part).

I also have in my notes a couple of things I thought of when going over this again -- the boys are like the "masses" sinking into placidity -- they don't want to have to DO anything, which goes back to the whole duty vs. pleasure thing -- they only want to do what they WANT to do, rather than doing what they ought to do, and they make up justifications to make what they want to do seem important, so they have an excuse to do it, and not what is really the important work.

And now my comments on ch. 7:

Ralph is growing increasingly dissatisfied with his own unkemptness. His acceptance of it as normal, as well as the other boys not noticing or caring about their own state of cleanliness, disgusts him. This shows both a growing weariness of this adventure "game," and his growing menatl awareness, that we discussed in the previous ch. He longs for civilization in a way he didn't before, showing also his transformation from boy to adolescent. He also views the other side of the island as scary and much different from the lagoon side where they dwell. It makes him feel hopeless to look out over the harsh waves. Simon tries to reassure him by telling him he thinks Ralph will get back to where he came from.

(I'm breaking this up just in case I go over the limit)

[azalea]

The next part is crucial to the book as a whole. We see Jack bending down over the pig droppings "as though he loved them." How gross, but what is it like? A fly.
So Jack's on a hunting bent again, and Ralph allows this so that he can temporarily relenquish his leadership a bit, and daydreams about his former life in England. This is in stark contrast to the next scene, when the pig runs through and he hits him in the nose with his spear, which EXCITES him. He feels what they have felt, he feels a part of them. They start to do their ritual dance and chant, with Robert as the pig. They, INCLUDING RALPH, our innocent, civilized boy, are jabbing at Robert with their spears for real. It states that along with the others, Ralph's "desire to squeeze and hurt was over-mastering." He cannot help it, the desire to hurt is so strong. It stops, and Robert says they should use a real pig so they could really kill it. Jack then says they should "use a littlun," which is chilling because we know how he feels about them. And just as chilling, everyone laughs.

Then they proceed with their search (there's a line I like about the birds hovering over some fruit "like insects," which evokes a parallel image of flies hovering over their food like these birds hover over theirs). They realize they won't get back to the shelters by nightfall, and Ralph says Piggy needs to be sent a message. No one wants to go because of their fears (and Jack makes a snide comment about Piggy), but of course Simon goes because of his different view of it.
(AGGHHH I have to go! I'll get back on later and finish; in the meantime if anyone wants to post it, go ahead. )

[azalea]

So we come to some really good writing here, as first Ralph confronts Jack, adult-style ("Why do you hate me?"), which of course Jack doesn't know how to respond to. Then they reach the mountain, but it's dark, and no one wants to go up (too bad Simon wasn't there -- that's probably why Golding had him go back to Piggy, because he would have gone up but not run away like these guys do). They say they're "tired," but I doubt they'd have gone up there even in daylight, so great was their fear. But Jack and Ralph have a little childish face-off, with the great line: (Jack) "'I'm going up the mountain to look for the beast -- now.' Then came the supreme sting, the casual, bitter word. 'Coming?'"
I can almost hear his voice as I read that, and can sense Ralph's reaction. And I love how he describes the boys who had set off for the shelter turn back when they hear that, to see what Ralph will do, because you know that's what would happen. So the two of them and Roger set off up to see the beast, and all the way up there's back and forth between Ralph and Jack about going up to where the beast sits (You chicken? I'm not chicken, are you?...). Finally Jack goes up and gets spooked, so Ralph has to have a look, and says they'll all go, at which Jack hesitates, but goes anyway. Then when they spot it, they all run away down the mountain, freaked out by what they think they saw, in a very childish way (but I could see myself doing the same thing! ). [Very interesting analysis about this scene, but I'll wait till you guys make your comments. ]

[jerseydevil]

In this chapter I can see where the "christ-like" figure of Simon comes in. It is especially evident in the "You'll get back to where you came from." to Ralph. He gives comfort to Ralph - while Piggy gives Ralph brains, Jack gives Ralph the human animal. It's like all these seperate people represent different parts of Ralph - with Ralph being "leader". When Ralph goes hunting with Jack - all he does is hit the snout of the boar and is so excited. He feels what jack has felt the whole time. When he needs to figure out and think something through - he thinks of Piggy.

Maybe I'm off on this - but I look at it as if Ralph represents man and Simon, Piggy, Jack and even Ralph all represent different parts of man. Together they make a full human. Right now - Ralph is fighting with his "Jack" side and his "piggy" side. When he partakes in the hunting ritual - it is the first sign that maybe his "Jack" side is winning out. But then later in the chapter the "Piggy and Ralph" side start to come to the forefront again. His Piggy side is vey evident when he says "Why do you hate me?"

Jack and Ralph are starting to have a battle of wills. Both are scared - but neither wants to admit it. In order to gain the upperhand - they need to make everyone else think that the other person is the one who is scared. Jack wants the power and resents Ralph for being the leader.

By the way - maybe this is almost out there - but the lagoon seems almost like "mother's womb" type of symbolism. The lagoon protects that part of the island from the dangerous, violent outside, while the other side of the island represents the outside world. The violent waves, the uncertainty. On the lagoon side Ralph is positive he will be rescued, he feels protected, he feels safe. On the other side of the island, he feels dispair and loss of hope and a sense of loss of his childhood.

I'm interested in what you have to say Azalea. I don't know if my feelings are way out there. But analysis to me - has always been an individual thing. It's interesting to see what others think - but even the "experts" analysis isn't necessarily correct.

[azalea]

Agreed. That's why I have really been trying to wait until we've had a chance to voice our own thoughts before reading then posting what the "experts" say. I will say that in the analysis in the back of the Cliff's Notes, it describes SEVERAL very different interpretations, each of which is valid. It so happens that your "all of them representing the different sides of man" is one of them. That's something that hadn't occured to me beforehand, but it's cool that you saw it that way as you were reading it, since I had just been reading about that interpretation in the commentary.
I also LOVE your "mother's womb" view of the lagoon! (Of course as the mother of two young children, anything to do with that kind of thing makes me all gushy. ) I agree, I love to see what others think of when they read a text, because it usually allows me to see something there that I hadn't seen, and also lets me mesh that with what I saw, and the whole thing becomes even richer.
[I have really been enjoying this even though only a few of us are participating. I do want to go ahead and post about ch. 8 soon, because I think it would be okay to speed things up a little. I will probably have some time this weekend. Maybe in the meantime Jonathan will have had a chance to post, too.]

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by azalea
Agreed. That's why I have really been trying to wait until we've had a chance to voice our own thoughts before reading then posting what the "experts" say. I will say that in the analysis in the back of the Cliff's Notes, it describes SEVERAL very different interpretations, each of which is valid. It so happens that your "all of them representing the different sides of man" is one of them. That's something that hadn't occured to me beforehand, but it's cool that you saw it that way as you were reading it, since I had just been reading about that interpretation in the commentary.

To me it's seemed like it's been an on going theme - but with this chapter - just seemed to be stressed a lot more.

I also LOVE your "mother's womb" view of the lagoon! (Of course as the mother of two young children, anything to do with that kind of thing makes me all gushy. ) I agree, I love to see what others think of when they read a text, because it usually allows me to see something there that I hadn't seen, and also lets me mesh that with what I saw, and the whole thing becomes even richer.

I don't read what you say before I post for this reason. That way I'm not influenced in my thoughts and I can say what I think first. Then we can discuss.

[I have really been enjoying this even though only a few of us are participating. I do want to go ahead and post about ch. 8 soon, because I think it would be okay to speed things up a little. I will probably have some time this weekend. Maybe in the meantime Jonathan will have had a chance to post, too.]

I enjoy it too. It is too bad others aren't doing it. Hopefully Jonathan wil post. He was upset because he had to read it for his English class and he thought they were going to analyze it and talk about it. Nope - didn't do any of that - they just read it and handed in their books. He was disappointed because he thought he had learned a lot and would have been able to really talk about the book in class. Hopefully he will post - I'm going to try bugging him tomorrow about it.

Ans we can go to chapter 8. Sorry for being slow - it just takes more for me to do the Lord of the Flies than the other threads. I'll try picking up the pace though.

[Jonathan]

I'm sorry I haven't posted. It feels like I'm slowing down our reading
As JD said, I had to hand in my LotF book to my English teacher but I hope I still have the book fresh in my memory so that I still can post and comment it. I'll read through some summaries on the web if I need to refreshen my memory. Or I might just go and buy a copy of the book for myself


In this chapter we see how the boys more and more lose their humanity, their superficial gloss of civilisation is about to be scratched away. Even Ralph’s behaviour is getting more animalistic.
When the hunters go into a “kill the pig” frenzy Ralph joins them and actively participates. They have the boy Robert play the pig and they actually start hurting him. After the hunting chant Roger suggests that they should have a real pig. I guess he wants to be able to get an outlet for his desire to hurt and kill. Then Jack says something disturbing, namely that he could just use a littlun. In the beginning of the book Jack even had problems with killing a pig. Now he’s able to hurt and kill his fellow beings.

You can see the hunting chant as forewarning of what to come. As the chant becomes more violent, so will the boys.

Then the boys are to climb the mountain to look for that beast. Simon says he can go back and look after the littluns so that Piggy doesn’t have to do it all by himself. What a nice lad Simon is . Besides, why should he climb the mountain when he knows that there is no real beast? He knows that the ‘beast’ is part of them and not a separate being.
Simon was being a nice lad in the beginning of the chapter too when he reassures Ralph that it is his belief that they will be rescued someday. If I was in Ralph’s position, there would have been nothing I’d like more than to hear those words. That I will leave the island someday.

Originally posted by jerseydevil
By the way - maybe this is almost out there - but the lagoon seems almost like "mother's womb" type of symbolism. The lagoon protects that part of the island from the dangerous, violent outside, while the other side of the island represents the outside world.

Interesting thought. The lagoon is their 'home', their sanctuary, a mother they can run to when the outside world is too cruel.

[Lady Tinuveil]

Hello Friends!
I would like to say that In this book, the casual writing style and clever discriptions make each chapter more interesting than the next.
I like how the author writes of their feelings, and each of their thoughts, through-out the novel.

It makes you understand their position, and their troubles. The pig-run troubles me, although you think they are just boys, playing, there is more in their minds. As I read on to chapter 8, I shall post more of my thoughts.

And Jonathan, I suggest the hardback edition, It is put together very well, and I enjoy its size, and the cover.

[azalea]

WElcome to the discussion, Lady Tinuviel! Glad to have someone else on board.
That being said, I'm sorry I haven't posted here the last few days. I've been busy, and here it was ME suggesting we should pick up the pace! You guys can go ahead to ch. 8 whenever you want to. I actually had to take my copy back to the library, and didn't get a chance to take notes. I'm going to visit my parents Saturday, so I'll borrow their copy and be back to my regularly posting self. I can still respond to your posts without the book anyway.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by azalea
WElcome to the discussion, Lady Tinuviel! Glad to have someone else on board.
That being said, I'm sorry I haven't posted here the last few days. I've been busy, and here it was ME suggesting we should pick up the pace! You guys can go ahead to ch. 8 whenever you want to. I actually had to take my copy back to the library, and didn't get a chance to take notes. I'm going to visit my parents Saturday, so I'll borrow their copy and be back to my regularly posting self. I can still respond to your posts without the book anyway.

I took a break this weekend from entmoot. I shoudl be able to post shortly. I'm just glad you haven't given up on us Azalea.

[azalea]

Chapter Eight: Gift for the Darkness


Well, I can't find my commentary notes for ch. 7, but I can just post them when I find them (if we haven't already finished, that is).

It's been so long since I read the ch., but I'll go through and just give my thoughts as I remember them.

It opns with Ralph, Piggy and Jack discussing the Beast. They have to decide what to do about it, because otherwise they can't have the fire. Jack is mainly concerned because he wants to hunt it. He calls an assembly (there is a little exchange between Ralph and Jack about who had called the meeting), where the beast is said to be a "hunter." Jack and Ralph begin to argue, because Ralph's earlier comments about the hunters' ineffectivness angered Jack, and Jack tries to discredit Ralph in the eyes of the group by criticising him. He then tries to get the group to vote Ralph "out of office," but no one does. So Jack stomps off and says he's not going to "play any longer."

So Jack has separated from the group. Simon suggests to Ralph and Piggy that they should climb up to the Beast to find out about it, but of course no one wants to do that. Interesting is Piggy's "derisive" look, and retort that if Ralph and the other two couldn't do anything, why should anyone else be able to. The idea that there might be other approaches or options besides the "brave and mighty" doesn't occur to him. This is a bit of "blindness" on his part, an interesting parallel since we know about his eyesight. Piggy is pleased that Jack is no longer a part of the group, and suggests that a fire be built there by the beach, since they can't restart the one on the mountain.
After it's built, they realize that the hunters have left, presumably to join Jack. The only ones that remain are the twins. They also notice that Simon is missing, and surmise that he has gone to climb the mountain, which he has.

The next section is an extremely graphic and we see the origin of the Lord of the Flies. Jack and the hunters are going to get some meat. They find a group of pigs and sneak up on them, with the intention of killing a sow, who is nursing her piglets. This is telling in that these "brave hunters" don't go after the big strong boars, or even a young adult pig, but instead opt for a cowardly type kill, a mother in the very act of nursing her young, in a position of defenslessness. The sow can also be seen as a symbol of domesticity, the very thing these hunters have flung away. They attack her right there, and she runs away. They follow her trail of blood, and surround her. The description of the act of killing her is described in terms that are quite sexual. It sounds more like a gang rape in some ways. Roger pushes his spear up her anus, they stab at her, taking pleasure in torturing her until finally Jack cuts her throat. They are rejoicing at their accomplishment, when they realize they don't have the means to make a fire to cook with. Jack says they'll raid the camp. Then he says to sharpen a stick at both ends, with the intention of leaving part of the kill as a kind of sacrifice to the beast. This is both symbolic in that it points to the heathenistic ways they've adopted, and concrete in that they do believe they can avoid dealing with the beast by giving it some of the meat. The reader, however, already knows the nature of the beast, that it is inside of them, not something on the outside that can be appeased and avoided. The head of the pig is put on the top of the stick, which is stuck in the ground. The moment this is done, the mood changes, and instead of the fluttering of butterflies, they hear the buzzing of the flies that are drawn to the head, and there is a sinister feeling. On the surface, they might think that it's fear of the beast, but I think it's the fact of what they've done and how they've acted, although they don't have adult clarity about it, and they are trying to "run away" from their cognizance regarding their actions. Plus, I bet that pig looked pretty nasty up there.

We find that Simon has been watching, and he has a kind of mental battle with the head. It is a symbolic realization coming to him that he was right, an "inescapable recognition" that the beast is within each of them.

Ralph is attempting to voice the reason for his fears to Piggy regarding the fire, and something he can't quite put into words, a fear that he might also become complacent about getting rescued, like the others have. Then Jack (naked) and two hunters come to "invite" the remaining group to a feast, and Jack makes the two hunters say "The chief has spoken" after he has his say, as a way of confirming his authority. In that we see an example of his dictatorial style of leadership, as opposed to the democratic one symbolized by Ralph. They have left with a branch of fire, and everyone in the group is rattled. We get another hint of the symbolism of long hair in that Ralph can't remember what he was going to say until the clarity comes when he "pushed the idiot hair out of his eyes and looked at Piggy." Sam and Eric voice what the others are thinking when they express that they'd like to go and get some meat.

We then have a very deep scene in which Simon "battles" the Lord of the Flies. The pig's head seems to speak to Simon, telling him there's no way he'll be able to make the other boys understand the truth about the Beast. He has kind of a premonition, with the head telling him that the boys don't want to hear the truth, and will avoid hearing it at all costs.

That sums up the chapter. I don't expect too much response about it, but I just feel I need to complete this little project, as I hate to leave things unfinished, and I do love this book. I'll wait a few days, and then I'll go ahead and post on the next chapter, whether anyone has responded or not. It may not be much of a discussion, but I feel that it will have some value for people who might come along in the future and be interested. I'd just hate to have it stop four chapters shy of completion.

[azalea]

Found my commentary notes. Here's what I wrote down for ch. 7 (remember, this is what the Cliff's Notes had to say about it. I am just typing what I wrote, so it may be choppy and/or repetitive -- it's been a while since I wrote them!):
Ralph's metamorphosis into a representative of adolesence in that he has a new awareness (has an awareness of larger issues than own enjoyment of the adventure) and ability to analyze events, but is still unable to use it effectively, ie, fear of the beast.
Ralph's daydream is a device to embellish his role of well-bred English boy, so that when we "cut back to real time" and Jack's blood lust, we are prepared to rationalize that while some are like that (prone to violence), there are good people who don't succumb (Ralph). But instead, Golding shows us that "every individual has the seeds of violence and the urge to kill within him," as evidenced by Ralph's enthusiastic participation in the hunt.
The ritual dance (Robert acting as the pig and they get carried away so that he is hurt) makes the point that "evil in society can be traced back to the individual, ANY individual."
Foreshadowing in Jack's statement re: the littluns (showing his contempt for the weak) AND in the boys' reaction to it -- laughter.
Simon's feeling of oneness with the forest in contrast with the horror of it felt by the others shown by his happily volunteering to get the message to Piggy.
Childlike bickering = adult fear of the unknown
Beast = gorilla or mutant in their eyes. The child's mind transforms it because of their horror. But it is human, but NOT human as they thought of it -- it symbolizes their wish to avoid the knowledge of what it really is/ what they really are/ are becoming.
Approaching what they think is evil incarnate, "they are vexed with the results of the true source of evil," specifically, their own irresponsibility, shown as the forest they burned. They are blinded by the ashes, which symbolizes their blindness to the actual source of evil.