Gandolf, Moria and Durin's Bane

[Insidious Rex]

Ok get ready for a shot gun question attack: First off, what did Gandolf know already about the dangers of moria? Did he know there was a Balrog in there? I mean Durins Bane was a known term to everyone at that point. And how could Gimli have been so clueless about Moria being such a great place to go when it was obviously a tomb for so long? Was he really that out of touch with his cousin? I mean if this Balrog had basically brought the downfall of the greatest dwarf kingdom on earth wouldnt it be fairly common knowledge and gandolf could say hey theres a freaking BALROG in there we aint goin that way. And why did he tell Frodo to choose the way anyway? Somehow i got the idea that gandolf sensed something (doom? the presence of another maiar?) but didnt know for sure excatly in what form it would take.

Oh and the orcs that attack them in the mines are they agents of sauron or just some native nasties who now lived there?

[Dunadan]

Maybe this should be in the Movies forum; you can find most of the answers in the book. In particular, the Appendices have lots of stuff about the war of Orcs and Dwarves in Moria. The main enemy was Orcs rather than a balrog; Balin returned to Moria after the Battle of the Five Armies in the hope that they had all been wiped out and he'd be able to re-establish their kingdom.

Basically, it was Gandalf's idea to enter Moria; it was Aragorn who had misgivings about it. The company were divided on whether to attempt it after the snow storm on Caradhras and Frodo kind of had the casting vote. In the book, it seems that Gandalf had no expectation of running into Durin's Bane.

Which, come to think of it, is a subtle but significant deviation from the book. Not sure if this has been discussed elsewhere.

cheers

d.

[Insidious Rex]

Oh Im sure Im mixing up some movie stuff here with some book stuff but the fact is I was already confused about the whole Moria issue even before I saw the movie and seeing the movie just made it worse for me. Heres what the BOOK tells you about the situation (mostly from the appendix):

-The balrog escapes into the misty mountains; sleeps for some 5,000 years and is awoken either by the dwarven mithral miners or by the presence of sauron in nearby Dol Guldur. Or both.

-The Balrog rampages through Moria, killing Balin the king.

-Náin I becomes king and they are at war with the Balrog for about a year but lose and Náin is killed.

-The remaining dwarves flee Moria spreading word about the creature and the terror of the Balrog is even well known enough to cause the Silvan Elves at Lórien to leave their home and escape to the south.

-For 500 years Moria is deserted and haunted by the Balrog. 500 years!

-Balin (Gimlis cousin) tries to recolonize Moria but is unsuccesful. Although Im not sure if we are ever told how long Balin and company remained in Moria before the Balrog (and the orcs that have moved into the area) wipe them out. Certainly long enough for Gimli to think hey my cousin has a great place there we will be treated with a royal welcome.

-The Fellowship passes through some 30 years after Balin and company attempt to colonize Moria and find a tomb untouched for decades.

See now from this I just cant understand how none of the company (especially gandolf or gimli) can be aware of what they may encounter in the mines. Are we to believe that a creature that almost destroys an entire civilization and scares off elves and others that live nearby can be completely forgotten? I guess so. And doesnt Gimli have any kind of contact with his cousins kin that would at least alert him that no one is alive there nor have they been for a long time?

Finally, does the Balrog come after the company because he heard them? Because he heard the orc activity caused by them? Or is does he sense the ring nearby and comes out to investigate?

[Arien the Maia]

[
Finally, does the Balrog come after the company because he heard them? Because he heard the orc activity caused by them? Or is does he sense the ring nearby and comes out to investigate? [/B][/QUOTE]

Okay I can't really answer your first questions but here are my thoughts on this one.

I always thought that the orc activity is what caused the Balrog to come ofafter the company. I don't think that he is really concerned with the Ring, or perhaps he doesn't really even know about it...after all Balrogs served Morgoth...I don't think that any ever served Sauron seeing as how they are both Maiar....I hope I didn't confuse you more!

[Fingolfin_1st]

and your question about are the orcs servants of sauron- in my opinion no as he would have used them to a greater purpose like attacking lorien or something.and the balrog deffinately wasnt under his command as somebody already said they were both maiars and the balrog had no need to serve sauron and if he did sauron would have used him a long time ago to lead an attack against lorien or mirkwood.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Dunadan
The main enemy was Orcs rather than a balrog; Balin returned to Moria after the Battle of the Five Armies in the hope that they had all been wiped out and he'd be able to re-establish their kingdom.

hey i just noticed you said this here. and that makes me wonder did Balin encounter the Balrog at all? Or was it JUST orcs that wiped him out? You would think that the sound and activity of dwarves and orcs fighting would certainly attract the attention of the Balrog so it MUST have encountered the dwarves if not been directly responsible for their demise.

[Ulmo]

The Dwarves tell no tale; but even as mithril was the foundation of their wealth, so also it was their destruction: they delved too greedily and too deep, and disturbed that from which they fled, Durin's Bane. Of what they brought to light the Orcs have gathered nearly all, and given it in tribute to Sauron, who covets it.

The last line ('Of what they brought to light the Orcs have gathered nearly all, and given it in tribute to Sauron, who covets it.') indicates the orcs were in allegiance with Sauron. They might not have been so directly under his control as the orcs in Mordor were, but nonetheless they were part of his cause.

Gandalf was just like everyone else - knew that something terrible was down there; something terrible enough to take over Durin's kingdom. This was a combined effort of the orcs and the balrog.

If you have read The Hobbit and the appendices with The Return of the King, you are familiar with Dáin Ironfoot. The fall of Durin's kingdom happened when Dáin was a relatively young man. In this Battle of Azanulbizar, Dáin slew Azog, chieftain of the orcs of the Misty Mountains. He saw the worst of that battle, and saw the balrog, Durin's Bane, himself. He, more than anyone, knew the terror that was in Moria. (Of course, he didn't know it was a 'balrog.') Note Dáin's comments:

Then Thráin turned to Dáin, and said: 'But surely my own kin will not desert me?' 'No,' said Dáin. 'You are the father of our Folk, and we have bled for you, and will again. But we will not enter Khazad-dûm. You will not enter Khazad-dûm. Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria.'

Dáin refused to go back to Moria, though Thráin wanted to. Later on, Dáin was lord of the Iron Hills. Being the descendent of Durin, he became King Under the Mountain after the Lonely Mountain was taken back (and Thorin fell). Balin, too, was of Durin's royal line, though not as directly as Dáin. Balin requested to go and repopulate Moria, but Dáin was very resistant. Balin eventually went though.

[Ulmo]

Just after that in the appendices is something that gives a hint as to why Balin felt it was necessary to return to Moria:

Of this Ring something may be said here. It was believed by the Dwarves of Durin's Folk to be the first of the Seven that was forged; and they say that it was given to the King of Khazad-dûm, Durin III, by the Elven-smiths themselves and not by Sauron, though doubtless his evil power was on it, since he had aided in the forging of all the Seven. But the possessors of the Ring did not display it or speak of it, and they seldom surrendered it until near death, so that others did not know for certain where it was bestowed. Some thought that it had remained in Khazad-dûm, in the secret tombs of the kings, if they had not been discovered and plundered; but among the kindred of Durin's Heir it was believed (wrongly) that Thrór had worn it when he rashly returned there. What then had become of it they did not know. It was not found on the body of Azog.

None the less it may well be, as the Dwarves now believe, that Sauron by his arts had discovered who had this Ring, the last to remain free, and that the singular misfortunes of the heirs of Durin were largely due to his malice. For the Dwarves had proved untameable by this means. The only power over them that the Rings wielded was to inflame their hearts with a greed of gold and precious things, so that if they lacked them all other good things seemed profitless, and they were filled with wrath and desire for vengeance on all who deprived them. But they were made from their beginning of a kind to resist most steadfastly any domination. Though they could be slain or broken, they could not be reduced to shadows enslaved to another will; and for the same reason their lives were not affected by any Ring, to live either longer or shorter because of it. All the more did Sauron hate the possessors and desire to dispossess them.

One of the Seven Dwarven Rings of Power was given to the King of Khazad-dûm, Durin III, and the Ring had been lost. At the Council of Elrond, Glóin confirms that part of the reason for Balin's return to Moria is to find this Dwarven Ring, but Gandalf tells us what really happened to it.

'Still it might be well for all,' said Glóin the Dwarf, 'if all these strengths were joined, and the powers of each were used in league. Other rings there may be, less treacherous, that might be used in our need. The Seven are lost to us – if Balin has not found the ring of Thrór which was the last; naught has been heard of it since Thrór perished in Moria. Indeed I may now reveal that it was partly in hope to find that ring that Balin went away.'

`Balin will find no ring in Moria,' said Gandalf. `Thrór gave it to Thráin his son, but not Thráin to Thorin. It was taken with torment from Thráin in the dungeons of Dol Guldur. I came too late.'

Being of Durin's royal line, Balin also probably felt it was his responsibility to try to reinhabit the former kingdom of the great Durin, and to reign as one of his heirs (though Dáin was highest in rank).

The main reason for Balin's return to Moria is given by Glóin at the Council though. They felt they were losing the greatness of their fathers, and that they needed to expand their kingdom outside of the mountains in the northeast where the Lonely Mountain and Erebor left. They *thought* they had enough power and numbers to hold out on any attacks they may encounter.

`It is now many years ago,' said Glóin, `that a shadow of disquiet fell upon our people. Whence it came we did not at first perceive. Words began to be whispered in secret: it was said that we were hemmed in a narrow place, and that greater wealth and splendour would be found in a wider world. Some spoke of Moria: the mighty works of our fathers that are called in our own tongue Khazad-dûm; and they declared that now at last we had the power and numbers to return.'
Glóin sighed. `Moria! Moria! Wonder of the Northern world! Too deep we delved there, and woke the nameless fear. Long have its vast mansions lain empty since the children of Durin fled. But now we spoke of it again with longing, and yet with dread; for no dwarf has dared to pass the doors of Khazad-dûm for many lives of kings, save Thrór only, and he perished. At last, however, Balin listened to the whispers, and resolved to go; and though Dáin did not give leave willingly, he took with him Ori and Óin and many of our folk, and they went away south.
"That was nigh on thirty years ago. For a while we had news and it seemed good: messages reported that Moria had been entered and a great work begun there. Then there was silence, and no word has ever come from Moria since.'

[Ulmo]

The last portion indicates part of why Glóin came to the Council in the first place, which he also mentioned earlier (the other part was that Dain had encountered Sauron and wanted Bilbo to know he was been sought after by Sauron):

'And what has become of Balin and Ori and Óin?' asked Frodo.

A shadow passed over Glóin's face. `We do not know,' he answered. 'It is largely on account of Balin that I have come to ask the advice of those that dwell in Rivendell. But tonight let us speak of merrier things!'

Gandalf knew of the terror, but he didn't know what kind of terror it was, or if they would even conquer it. He might've felt the presence of one like him, or something of such great power, but he obviously did not know it was a balrog:

'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. `Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. `What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'

In all likelyhood, this is partly why the balrog was disturbed. Apart from the noise from all of the scurrying of orcs and the fighting going on, the balrog would've felt Sauron's presence.

Part of Sauron was in the Ring, and he would've been able to sense such a strong evil power when nearby. Whether or not the balrog was in direct allegiance with Sauron then, he was very familiar with Sauron, as Sauron was Morgoth's second-in-command during the great wars of the First Age.

As to whether or not the balrog was under the direct control is debatable and could go either way, really. Just because Sauron is now the Dark Lord does not automatically place the balrog under his authority. It's possible that the balrog would acknowledge Sauron as Morgoth's heir, but not definite. From 'Myths Transformed':

Sauron is just another (if greater) agent. Orcs can rebel against him without losing their own irremedable allegiance to evil (Morgoth).

That quote means *even* orcs could disobey Sauron, so a balrog definitely could. That doesn't necessarily mean he would have. Anyway, the most likely scenario (as it seems to me) is that Sauron left the balrog in Moria as a pawn A) to prevent dwarves from reinhabiting Moria and B) possibly to combat Rivendell or Lorien when his armies began to move. This is never given the chance (as Sauron fell before he expected to, I'd imagine) to be carried out, so we don't know.

[Insidious Rex]

whew. quite impressive. so let me get this straight. the dwarves never actually knew what this thing was (the Balrog) even when it haunted their mountain kingdom and killed many of them. they just knew it as this unspeakable horror that they could not defeat. now if the Balrog was active for 500 years in Moria and it was known even by the local elves why wouldnt it quickly become common knowlege throughout the land? and sooner or later someone old enough and/or wise enough could put two and two together and realize holy god its a Balrog for gods sake! even if the dwarves didnt know what to call it. certainly the survivers came out with stories that made it clear what ever it was it was horribly powerful. not to mention they could probably describe its appearance well. and how many things are cloaked in fire and shadow.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Ulmo
*even* orcs could disobey Sauron, so a balrog definitely could. That doesn't necessarily mean he would have.

i was under the impression that it was the ring that basically kept the orcs so dedicated to Sauron at all costs. it was the power of the evil in the ring that bound them and gave them strength. when the ring is finally destroyed suddenly the mindless creatures (like the trolls and such) wander off immediatly and no longer focus on the battle at hand. the orcs panic and break like mice losing any courage and determination they had through the power of the ring. Im guessing Sauron could probably have had some serious influence over the balrog in this same way despite the fact that he is a fellow maiar. so the presence of the ring must have really been a beacon to the balrog. that certainly makes sense. now that leads to the question of why did gandolf take so long to recognize what the ring was. if the balrog can be drawn to it just by its presence why wouldnt gandolf figure this out when he actualy held it?