Why wasn't Gollum turned into a wraith?

[CAB]

Is the reason Gollum didn’t become a wraith after possessing the Ring for nearly five hundred years explained solely by the Hobbits’ natural resistance, or is there something more?

I think one important point to consider is Gollum’s appearance compared to other mortal ringbearers. Bilbo and Frodo seem simply to be ageing very slowly. We don’t have much of a description of what the Nazgul looked like, but what we do have suggests that they appeared to essentially resemble very old men. While admittedly in one scene (The Stairs of Cirith Ungol - The Two Towers) Gollum is said to basically resemble an old Hobbit, this is the exception. More often Gollum is described in terms more similar to descriptions of Orcs than Hobbits or Men. (Actually I think Gollum may have been essentially been an Orc made from a Hobbit specimen by the time of the Lord of the Rings. No, I am not suggesting that Morgoth or Sauron used rings to make Orcs. Rather I think the twisting and cruelty of the process and the end result were much the same.)

One might argue that the One Ring wasn’t intended to create wraiths since Sauron never planned on another holding it. Yet it seems the evil power of the One and Nine are very similar, probably due to their connection. Why would the One give the holder a view into the Unseen world? Surely Sauron already possessed this power. Why would the One extend it’s holder’s life? Sauron was immortal. I am not sure how the Seven and Three fit in here. My guess is that the Seven at least were basically (if not exactly) the same as the Nine and that the Dwarves simply reacted to them differently than Men or Hobbits would. The Three may have been the exception due to the fact they remained “unsullied” or perhaps their holders reaction was different due to the Elves immortality and strength.

I personally don’t believe that Sauron originally intended for any of the rings to make their holders wraiths. It would make sense that the rings were meant to bring groups of people, rather than only individuals, under Sauron’s control, and so were given to leaders or potential leaders. Why would Sauron want these leaders, who presumably would be coaxing or forcing their followers to serve Sauron, to become wraiths?

My guess is that, in spite of Sauron’s intentions, mortals, or at least Men (and Hobbits are, I believe, a branch of Men) began to age rapidly at a certain point after holding a great ring. Perhaps at this point Sauron must act, probably via the One Ring, creating the “fading” process to cause the ringholder to become a Ringwraith and thus somewhat salvage and retain his servant. If he doesn’t act then the ringholder is relatively quickly twisted into an Orclike/Gollumlike creature. If this were true it would help explain the nature of Gollum’s existence. Obviously, Sauron couldn’t change Gollum to a Ringwraith via the One since Gollum was holding it.
I have no doubt that this theory has some flaws. There is certainly a lot of conjecture in my conclusion. However the original question seems quite intriguing and doesn’t seem to have been discussed here before. I would be very interested to hear what others think about it.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by CAB

I personally don’t believe that Sauron originally intended for any of the rings to make their holders wraiths. It would make sense that the rings were meant to bring groups of people, rather than only individuals, under Sauron’s control, and so were given to leaders or potential leaders. Why would Sauron want these leaders, who presumably would be coaxing or forcing their followers to serve Sauron, to become wraiths?

I disagree. That was probably part of the lure to the Nine Kings, the promise of mortality.

As for Gollum my guess would be that it is because he didn't wear it all of, if any of the time. The Nine most likely wore their Rings all of the time, as a sign of their Kingship. Yet in the Hobbit it says Gollum only wore his Ring when he went hunting for stray goblins.

[The Gaffer]

Interesting question.

In The Shadow of the Past, Gandalf connects Bilbo's lack of apparent ageing with his possession of the ring, not his wearing of it. The possessor then becomes a withered creature - "stretched" in Bilbo's words - like Gollum.

The "fading" to the "other side" is connected with wearing it. And with the Morgul-knife of course. Notice how the wraiths could not physically seize Frodo until he was "on the other side".

I think that we are explicitly told that Gollum used to be a hobbit many times in The Hobbit and LOTR.

[Gordis]

Most interesting thread, CAB! Thank you so much for starting it!

Originally Posted by CAB

Is the reason Gollum didn’t become a wraith after possessing the Ring for nearly five hundred years explained solely by the Hobbits’ natural resistance, or is there something more?

There are several factors, IMHO
1. Hobbits' natural resistance
2. Gollum used the Ring very little (as TD says), and only for invisibility (which I believe was the most innocent use), NOT for dominating other Rings (or other wills), or for some sorcery.
3. Third factor would be good vs evil intent at the beginning. But Gollum came into the possession of the Ring through murder, and used it for spying on his relatives and for stealing, so the third factor worked against him.

Originally Posted by CAB

I think one important point to consider is Gollum’s appearance compared to other mortal ringbearers. Bilbo and Frodo seem simply to be ageing very slowly.

I have to disagree, I am not aware that Bilbo and Frodo were ageing AT ALL, while in possession of the Ring. There are several quotes to back that up:

And if that was not enough for fame, there was also his prolonged vigour to marvel at. Time wore on, but it seemed to have little effect on Mr. Baggins. At ninety he was much the same as at fifty. At ninety-nine they began to call him well-preserved, but unchanged would have been nearer the mark. There were some that shook their heads and thought this was too much of a good thing; it seemed unfair that anyone should possess (apparently) perpetual youth as well as (reputedly) inexhaustible wealth. - LOTR

Frodo has grown fat, while living in the Shire, but in Rivendell, looking into the mirror, he saw again the young (33 year old) hobbit he once was.

Looking in a mirror he was startled to see a much thinner reflection of himself than he remembered: it looked remarkably like the young nephew of Bilbo who used to go tramping with his uncle in the Shire; but the eyes looked out at him thoughtfully.

Bilbo, I believe, was biologically still 50 years old when he gave the Ring to Frodo. Without the Ring, he continued ageing normally, so when Frodo met him again in Rivendell Bilbo was 67, looked slightly older than at the Party. Drastic thing has happened to Bilbo, when the Ring had been destroyed. He immediately found himself very old - 129 years - as old as the Old Took himself:

‘It is true that I wish to go back to the Shire,’ said Frodo. ‘But first I must go to Rivendell. For if there could be anything wanting in a time so blessed, I missed Bilbo; and I was grieved when among all the household of Elrond I saw that he was not come.’
‘Do you wonder at that, Ring-bearer?’ said Arwen. ‘For you know the power of that thing which is now destroyed; and all that was done by that power is now passing away. But your kinsman possessed this thing longer than you. He is ancient in years now, according to his kind; and he awaits you, for he will not again make any long journey save one.

Now Gollum. Let us suppose, that he found the Ring at 20 (TA 2463). He had it for 478 years (till 2941). When he lost the Ring, the ageing returned, so, in 3018, biologically Gollum was 20+77 = 97 years old, definitely growing old. Now with the Ring destroyed, Gollum would have suddenly turned 575 years old - that means he would have died immediately, even without falling into the chasm.

Originally Posted by CAB

]We don’t have much of a description of what the Nazgul looked like, but what we do have suggests that they appeared to essentially resemble very old men.

CAB, what makes you think so? Here is the quote from LOTR:

In their white faces burned keen and merciless eyes; under their mantles were long grey robes; upon their grey hairs were helms of silver; in their haggard hands were swords of steel. Their eyes fell on him and pierced him, as they rushed towards him. Desperate, he drew his own sword, and it seemed to him that it flickered red, as if it was a firebrand. Two of the figures halted. The third was taller than the others: his hair was long and gleaming and on his helm was a crown. In one hand he held a long sword, and in the other a knife; both the knife and the hand that held it glowed with a pale light. He sprang forward and bore down on Frodo.

Here we have two things: grey hairs and haggard hands. The WK was also described as "haggard King" later, at the bridge of Minas Morgul. I believe if Tolkien really wished to describe very old men, he would have been more explicit.

First of all, VERY old men have white hair (or no hair at all ), not grey. Secondly, perhaps, that was just the way the nazgul looked in the spirit world, where all seems to be in shades of grey. (Note also that the WK's long hair was gleaming). After all, when Frodo was suffering from the Morgul wound and Sam was wearing the Ring in Mordor, everything was gray and cloudy.
So, really, we only have to deal with "haggard":

"haggard" 1567, "wild, unruly," from M.Fr. haggard, probably from O.Fr. faulcon hagard "wild falcon," lit. "falcon of the woods," from M.H.G. hag "hedge, copse, wood," from P.Gmc. *khag-. Sense perhaps reinforced by Low Ger. hager "gaunt, haggard." Sense of "with a haunted expression" first recorded 1697, that of "careworn" first recorded 1853. Sense infl. by association with hag (q.v.)."

It is interesting this association with "wild" falcon then "gaunt", "haunted" and only finally, a century before Tolkien, the first appearance of a meaning "Worn and exhausted" influenced by a wrong association with "hag"... Tolkien was a linguist, he must have known all that. Also I highly recommend this article from Barrow-Downs site about the word:
http://www.barrowdowns.com/tt-haggard.php

I think, the nazgul still physically had the same age when they were given their Rings. They have become wraiths while wearing them, so, later, even without their rings, the wraiths didn't age.

But that doesn't mean the nazgul looked as flourishing and healthy as they did before the Rings. They were gaunt and haggard. I think all these changes happened when their natural lifespan ended, and their lives became stretched. Bilbo at 111, only just entered into this period (hobbits lived to around 100): he complained he recently felt tired, old, needing a holiday, restless and stretched like little butter over too much bread. Also he felt the Eye and the need to have the ring closer and closer to him: keeping it in his pocket.

The nazgul must have endured all the horrors of this long transitional period, before they turned wraiths. Perhaps they lived more than a hundred years like that, still alive, but completely exhausted mentally ("until at last every minute is a weariness"-LOTR). That is when they became gaunt and haggard, IMHO: probably they stopped eating and sleeping. And, for Men, this period was longer and even more torturous if the ringbearer "was strong or well-meaning to begin with"-LOTR. (So basically the more haggard a nazgul looks, the better man he had been in life, while the healthy-looking ones were weak and evil when alive ).

Originally Posted by CAB

While admittedly in one scene (The Stairs of Cirith Ungol - The Two Towers) Gollum is said to basically resemble an old Hobbit, this is the exception. More often Gollum is described in terms more similar to descriptions of Orcs than Hobbits or Men. (Actually I think Gollum may have been essentially been an Orc made from a Hobbit specimen by the time of the Lord of the Rings. No, I am not suggesting that Morgoth or Sauron used rings to make Orcs. Rather I think the twisting and cruelty of the process and the end result were much the same.)

Gollum (because of hobbit endurance) had an extremely long transitional period, it seems, about 400 years, more than any nazgul. He became all bones and sinew, gaunt spidery creature. And it was not from lack of food, IMHO: he could get fish aplenty, and some goblins for a better diet. Moreover, he lived in a lightless cave, that will account for his bulging luminous eyes and spidery attitudes. More like "evolution through adaptation" .

Originally Posted by CAB

One might argue that the One Ring wasn’t intended to create wraiths since Sauron never planned on another holding it. Yet it seems the evil power of the One and Nine are very similar, probably due to their connection. Why would the One give the holder a view into the Unseen world? Surely Sauron already possessed this power. Why would the One extend it’s holder’s life? Sauron was immortal. I am not sure how the Seven and Three fit in here. My guess is that the Seven at least were basically (if not exactly) the same as the Nine and that the Dwarves simply reacted to them differently than Men or Hobbits would. The Three may have been the exception due to the fact they remained “unsullied” or perhaps their holders reaction was different due to the Elves immortality and strength.

I agree. Invisibility was not the main power of any ring, it was more like a side-effect. Perhaps a wielder of a ring had to have access into the Spirit world to be able to do sorcery. Elves never meant any of the Rings for Men; I think Sauron also had little idea about the effect it will have on a mortal.

Originally Posted by CAB

My guess is that, in spite of Sauron’s intentions, mortals, or at least Men (and Hobbits are, I believe, a branch of Men) began to age rapidly at a certain point after holding a great ring. Perhaps at this point Sauron must act, probably via the One Ring, creating the “fading” process to cause the ringholder to become a Ringwraith and thus somewhat salvage and retain his servant. If he doesn’t act then the ringholder is relatively quickly twisted into an Orclike/Gollumlike creature. If this were true it would help explain the nature of Gollum’s existence. Obviously, Sauron couldn’t change Gollum to a Ringwraith via the One since Gollum was holding it.

I can't agree with it, because I disagree with your initial points: that the ringbearers aged, and that the nazgul looked like very old men.

Moreover there is this quote from letters:

Longevity or counterfeit 'immortality' (true immortality is beyond Ea) is the chief bait of Sauron – it leads the small to a Gollum, and the great to a Ringwraith.-L # 212.

The process was similar: the difference was only in the original person the Ring acted upon.

What sayest thou, CAB?
And I will be grateful for other Mooters' comments as well!

[Sam]

I think that the reason why gollum wasn't turned into a wraith was because he never came into direct contact with Sauron or the Nazgul (while in posetion of the ring of corse).

Maybe to fully become a servant of Sauron, you would need to first be directly in the presence of Sauron (or a Nazgul).

But then again, how do we know that the nine ever came face to face with Sauron

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I disagree, as the power of Sauron was in the One. They wouldn't need to come into contact with SAuron or the Nine.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Most interesting thread, CAB! Thank you so much for starting it!
There are several factors, IMHO
1. Hobbits' natural resistance
2. Gollum used the Ring very little (as TD says), and only for invisibility (which I believe was the most innocent use), NOT for dominating other Rings (or other wills), or for some sorcery.
3. Third factor would be good vs evil intent at the beginning. But Gollum came into the possession of the Ring through murder, and used it for spying on his relatives and for stealing, so the third factor worked against him.

To add to those:
4. Remember that it took a very long time for the bearers of the Nine to become Wraiths. Over 500 years I believe. Consider this with #'s 1 and 2 above.
5. Gollum was never stabbed by a Morgul blade - which might have immensely speeded the process, if it reached the heart or otherwise caused death (as was nearly so for Frodo).

So... Gollum was a Wraith in the making, but hadn't arrived yet.

[CAB]

Thank you to everyone for your replies. Sorry I am just now getting back. It has been a busy week for me.

I think what you all (except Sam) are saying is basically in line with the reasons Gandalf gave. I can’t really argue much with this line of reasoning. Still, I think it may be a bit more complicated than this. While Gandalf’s explanation may tell us why Gollum wasn’t turned into wraith, it doesn’t necessarily tell us how the Nazgul were. These ideas from the first post haven’t been discussed yet (reasonably enough since they aren’t entirely concerned with the original question).

And if that was not enough for fame, there was also his prolonged vigour to marvel at. Time wore on, but it seemed to have little effect on Mr. Baggins. At ninety he was much the same as at fifty. At ninety-nine they began to call him well-preserved, but unchanged would have been nearer the mark. There were some that shook their heads and thought this was too much of a good thing; it seemed unfair that anyone should possess (apparently) perpetual youth as well as (reputedly) inexhaustible wealth. - LOTR

This is kind of funny Gordis. It was this exact passage and especially the word “unchanged” that I first thought of while considering this question. Upon rereading though, I was struck by “much the same as at fifty” and “unchanged would have been nearer the mark”. Also there is the description of the Nazgul. I did somewhat misunderstand the word “haggard”. Thank you for the link. How ancient they look isn’t really important to what I was trying to say though. Maybe I shouldn’t have said “very” old. My point was that they almost certainly appeared (at least a little) older than when they first received the rings and that, in contrast to Gollum, still looked pretty much human rather than creature/Orc. These things made me think that maybe there was some very slow physical aging process occurring. You put forth a very good ring/aging theory Gordis. It may explain the appearances of the ringbearers. I have to ask you this though. Does it say anywhere that Bilbo looked any older when Frodo and Co. first came to Rivendell? I don’t remember seeing this. Also Gandalf says that Gollum felt old when he left the mountains but I don’t recall anything about differences in his appearance.

Originally Posted by Sam

I think that the reason why gollum wasn't turned into a wraith was because he never came into direct contact with Sauron or the Nazgul (while in posetion of the ring of corse).

Welcome to the Moot Sam. Thank you for your reply.

We seem to (somewhat at least) agree. I don’t think direct contact with the Nazgul or Sauron was needed but I do think that Sauron had to be aware of the ringholder (via the One Ring) and cause the “wraithing” process (again via the One Ring).

If the great rings were meant to make wraiths, why would it take so long? The morgul knife can apparently accomplish this in just days. Yes the knife causes a wound and leaves a splinter but the rings have to be much more powerful. Should the difference in the efficiency in wraith-making between the two be that great?

Would anyone like to comment on these points from the first post about how the Nazgul were created?

1. Sauron must be holding the One Ring for the other rings to make wraiths.
2. Sauron causes “fading” process rather than this being a result of the ringholder’s extended life.
3. The reason Sauron created the Nazgul was to make the best of the situation. The ringholders would eventually turn into Orclike/Gollumlike creatures if he didn’t act. He preferred to have nine ringwraiths to having nine (probably exceptional) Orclike creatures.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by CAB

We seem to (somewhat at least) agree. I don’t think direct contact with the Nazgul or Sauron was needed but I do think that Sauron had to be aware of the ringholder (via the One Ring) and cause the “wraithing” process (again via the One Ring).

I disagree. If this was true then Gollum, Frodo and Bilbo would have become wraiths.

Originally Posted by CAB

If the great rings were meant to make wraiths, why would it take so long? The morgul knife can apparently accomplish this in just days. Yes the knife causes a wound and leaves a splinter but the rings have to be much more powerful. Should the difference in the efficiency in wraith-making between the two be that great?

I disagree that the One was meant to make wraiths. IMO only the seven and the nine had the ability to do that as Sauron had touched them, but because of the dwarven nature they did not become wraiths. The thee could not have done either for Elrond was not made a wraith, and he did not exist in both worlds as Galadriel and Gandalf did, as he had not seen Valinor. It has been said by someone else on the Moot, (maybe it was you CAB) but why would the One make wraiths. Sauron was a Maia, and he did not intend on losing the Ring, or any other possesing it.

[Earniel]

Personally I always thought that wraith-dom wasn't determined by how long a ring is worn or by Sauron' s control over it. I always thought the determining factor was trying to master and/or use the power of the rings. Gollum wore the ring for long but didn't try to use it. The invisibility was standard when wearing it, Gollum didn't have to bend the One Ring to his will to become invisible. (I doubt think Gollum would have been strong enough for that anyway.)

The Nine rings surely must have had some strengths or powers and I'm sure thei bearers were able to use them to that capacity.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I disagree. If this was true then Gollum, Frodo and Bilbo would have become wraiths.

What I mean by “via the One Ring” is that Sauron himself must be wearing the One. His awareness of the other ringbearers and power over them and their rings is due to the connection between all the rings and the dominating power of the One. Sauron had no such awareness or power over Gollum, Frodo, or Bilbo because he didn’t have the One, they did.

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I disagree that the One was meant to make wraiths. IMO only the seven and the nine had the ability to do that as Sauron had touched them, but because of the dwarven nature they did not become wraiths. The thee could not have done either for Elrond was not made a wraith, and he did not exist in both worlds as Galadriel and Gandalf did, as he had not seen Valinor. It has been said by someone else on the Moot, (maybe it was you CAB) but why would the One make wraiths. Sauron was a Maia, and he did not intend on losing the Ring, or any other possesing it.

I somewhat agree with you here. As I said before, I don’t think any of the rings were meant to make wraiths. However if the other rings were supposed to make wraiths then you are right, it would be odd that the One would also have this power. But then, as I said in an earlier post in this thread, why does the One give extended life and vision in the Unseen world? Sauron already has these things. It would seem that the rings all shared these affects, probably due to their deep connection. And yes, that was me who made the remark about Sauron not intending to ever lose the One. I was using this point to show the similarities between all the rings’ powers because it seems that Gollum may have been on his way to becoming a wraith. At least some sort of unhealthy process was happening to Gollum that Sauron probably wouldn't want to happen to himself. But you could certainly look at it the other way and say that Gollum wasn’t made into a wraith because the One Ring and only the One (ok maybe the Three also) wasn’t intended for this purpose.

You are right, I think, that the Dwarves weren’t changed to wraiths due to their nature, but I think this also applies (in a different way) to the Elves and Gandalf. When speaking with Frodo, Gandalf implied that only mortals fade (become wraiths). It is also possible that the Three, being “unsullied” didn’t have the power to make wraiths.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Personally I always thought that wraith-dom wasn't determined by how long a ring is worn or by Sauron' s control over it. I always thought the determining factor was trying to master and/or use the power of the rings. Gollum wore the ring for long but didn't try to use it. The invisibility was standard when wearing it, Gollum didn't have to bend the One Ring to his will to become invisible. (I doubt think Gollum would have been strong enough for that anyway.)

The Nine rings surely must have had some strengths or powers and I'm sure thei bearers were able to use them to that capacity.

Your opinion seems to be close to Gandalf’s explanation and so is quite possible. Actually my theory only works if we assume that the rings were not intended to make wraiths. If this isn’t true, it falls apart.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by CAB

What I mean by “via the One Ring” is that Sauron himself must be wearing the One. His awareness of the other ringbearers and power over them and their rings is due to the connection between all the rings and the dominating power of the One. Sauron had no such awareness or power over Gollum, Frodo, or Bilbo because he didn’t have the One, they did.

Sorry, I misunderstod you.

But then, as I said in an earlier post in this thread, why does the One give extended life and vision in the Unseen world? Sauron already has these things.

I think that is the reason. Sauron put much of his own power into the One, that would be my guess.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Sam

I think that the reason why gollum wasn't turned into a wraith was because he never came into direct contact with Sauron or the Nazgul (while in posetion of the ring of corse).
Maybe to fully become a servant of Sauron, you would need to first be directly in the presence of Sauron (or a Nazgul).
But then again, how do we know that the nine ever came face to face with Sauron

Welcome to the Moot, Sam!

I think these are two different things: becoming a wraith and becoming Sauron's servant.
Gollum wasn't turned into a wraith mostly because he was a hobbit - uncommonly resistant creature.
And he didn't become a servant of Sauron, but only a servant of the Ring, because Sauron had no real hook for him.

The nazgul in the Second age wielded the Nine Rings which were controlled by the One, held by Sauron. Thus he had direct access to their minds - and must have used the link a lot for brainwashing. Remember when Sauron first put on the One and uttered the Ring-Spell (Ash nazg drabatuluk etc..), all the Elves who had the Ring of Power heard it immediately. And Sauron was in Mordor, while they were far away in Eregion. So, there was a strong mental link between the Wielders of the Nine, Seven and Three and the wielder of the One - Sauron. No doubt, gradually, the future nazgul had become Sauron's servants - at the same time or before as they became wraiths.

Now with Gollum, Sauron had no communication whatsoever. Gollum became slave to the Ring, and to the Master of the Ring (that hold on him Frodo used), but hated Sauron all the more. Even when captured and tortured in Mordor, even questioned by Sauron himself, he didn't tell all he knew - not a small feat!

Look at Frodo - he advanced greatly towards wraithdom (aided by the Morgul wound) but he showed no signs of becoming Sauron's servant.

I am sure, if Sauron gave one of the Nine Rings to a Man again, but not in the Second Age when he had the One, but in the Third Age, when the One was lost, the man would have become a wraith, but NOT Sauron's servant.

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

but why would the One make wraiths. Sauron was a Maia, and he did not intend on losing the Ring, or any other possesing it

It is evident from the text that making men into wraiths was connected with the property of a given Ring to confer invisibility. The nine and the One surely could confer invisibility - so they were making wraiths. For the One it was surely not intentional, but a side-effect.

Originally Posted by CAB

While Gandalf’s explanation may tell us why Gollum wasn’t turned into wraith, it doesn’t necessarily tell us how the Nazgul were. These ideas from the first post haven’t been discussed yet (reasonably enough since they aren’t entirely concerned with the original question).

I think the Nazgul were turned into wraiths not intentionally. It was just a side effect of wielding a thing designed for the immortal elves. Their fëar became Elvish in a way - in that they were now bound to the Circles of the World and denied the Gift of Eru. But the fading process that was naturally affecting Elven hroar, instead of being a very slow one, became catastrophically fast. Indeed, Men's hroar were never meant to endure for millennia.

Originally Posted by CAB

My point was that they almost certainly appeared (at least a little) older than when they first received the rings and that, in contrast to Gollum, still looked pretty much human rather than creature/Orc. These things made me think that maybe there was some very slow physical aging process occurring. You put forth a very good ring/aging theory Gordis. It may explain the appearances of the ringbearers. I have to ask you this though. Does it say anywhere that Bilbo looked any older when Frodo and Co. first came to Rivendell? I don’t remember seeing this. Also Gandalf says that Gollum felt old when he left the mountains but I don’t recall anything about differences in his appearance.

I reread the passage in Rivendell but found no description of Bilbo's appearance. I don't think there were any drastic changes, or it would be noted by Frodo. Bilbo said he felt old, though, but that is understandable. Gollum felt the same when he lost the Ring. But feeling old mentally is not the same as actually growing old physically, is it?

Originally Posted by CAB

I don’t think direct contact with the Nazgul or Sauron was needed but I do think that Sauron had to be aware of the ringholder (via the One Ring) and cause the “wraithing” process (again via the One Ring).

I think the wraithing process was NOT caused by Sauron, it was Ring's side effect, and most likely undesirable one. What Sauron caused via the One Ring, was to make the nazgul turn "evil" and become his servants.

If the great rings were meant to make wraiths, why would it take so long? The morgul knife can apparently accomplish this in just days. Yes the knife causes a wound and leaves a splinter but the rings have to be much more powerful. Should the difference in the efficiency in wraith-making between the two be that great?

Again a rieason to think that the wraithing wasn't intentional in the case of the Rings, while it was in the case of the Morgul knife.

Now your points, CAB.

" 1. Sauron must be holding the One Ring for the other rings to make wraiths."
I disagree. I put it thus: Sauron must be holding the One Ring for the other Rings to make their wielders evil and his servants.

"2. Sauron causes “fading” process rather than this being a result of the ringholder’s extended life."
Again, I don't think so. Men wielding the Rings of Power (at least the 7 and the 9) become wraiths anyway.

"3. The reason Sauron created the Nazgul was to make the best of the situation. The ringholders would eventually turn into Orclike/Gollumlike creatures if he didn’t act. He preferred to have nine ringwraiths to having nine (probably exceptional) Orclike creatures"

Gollum was turning into a slimy spidery creature only because he spent 500 years in a cave. Had a future nazgul chosen to live in a cave, he would have mutated the same way, but not so much, as he would have become a wraith and stopped changing earlier. Frodo and Bilbo showed no signs of turning "orclike" or Gollumlike", at least physically. The nazgul, kings or high lords, most likely lead their usual life up to the end, so they showed no "gollum-like" features, only became gaunt and haggard from long mental suffering before the end.

That is my POV on the matter. I thank you again, CAB, for starting this most interesting discussion.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

I think one important point to consider is Gollum’s appearance compared to other mortal ringbearers. [...] While admittedly in one scene (The Stairs of Cirith Ungol - The Two Towers) Gollum is said to basically resemble an old Hobbit, this is the exception. More often Gollum is described in terms more similar to descriptions of Orcs than Hobbits or Men. (Actually I think Gollum may have been essentially been an Orc made from a Hobbit specimen by the time of the Lord of the Rings. No, I am not suggesting that Morgoth or Sauron used rings to make Orcs. Rather I think the twisting and cruelty of the process and the end result were much the same.)

Re: Gollum's appearance and mindset.

I think we all failed to consider another factor: Shelob.

Already, years before, Gollum had beheld her, Sméagol who pried into all dark holes, and in past days he had bowed and worshipped her, and the darkness of her evil will walked through all the ways of his weariness beside him, cutting him off from light and from regret.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Re: Gollum's appearance and mindset.

I think we all failed to consider another factor: Shelob.

I suppose you are right. Shelob must have had some influence over him. Still, this is only very late in his life. Maybe you had some of his spider-like qualities in mind? I hadn’t thought about that connection before.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

I suppose you are right. Shelob must have had some influence over him. Still, this is only very late in his life. Maybe you had some of his spider-like qualities in mind? I hadn’t thought about that connection before.

I haven't thought of the connection before as well . Gollum first met Shelob in 2080, so she had about 40 years to "work" on him. And those were yours when he already had no Ring, so he was able to age and to change his appearance normally. I guess his sliminess and his bulging luminous eyes date from his time in the cave, while his spider-like qualities and the "darkness" of his mind are due to Shelob.

[Zilbanne]

Gollum, does certainly seem to be a wraith in the making. Here is something I'm considering though... Would Gollum have to have been wounded or stabbed by Sauron himself or a Nazgul in order to completely become a wraith?

I wonder though did Sauron stab or wound the nine kings who eventually became ringwraiths himself, while they were under the power of the rings, in order to speed the process of becoming wraiths along?

Frodo was stabbed by one of the nine ( was it Angmar?) and so began to turn into a wraith. Was this potential wraithing (sorry) of Frodo happening quickly because he was wearing the ONE ring when he was stabbed with the Morgul blade. Would anyone stabbed with a Morgul blade become a wraith?

I guess what I'm considering is would Gollum have to be wounded by either Sauron or one of the Ringwraiths in order to become a wraith?

As far as we know he was questioned and tortured but would he need something other than the power of the one ring working on him to be a wraith?

[ecthelion]

Great points worth discussion, CAB!
IMO, turning into a wraith requires some specific spell.
The morgul blades were probably wound about with such a spell, so getting stabbed would automatically do it.
The nine ring-beares were under the influence of their rings, so also under the influence of the one, and so under the influence of Sauron, who could have put on them a very nasty and torturous spell at his leisure.
Evil always delights in doing evil, both small and big. So even if the nine were less useful as wraiths than as humans, the great evil done in the process would be worth it.
Finally, since Sauron never expected to lose the one, it was always intended for him alone, maybe it did not have such a spell of becoming a wraith. And maybe all its effects and powers we see on gollum and the hobbits, are all side effects, and a mortal wearer would not become a wraith.
I think Sauron also didn't have power over the bearer, and could not put the wearer under a spell of "wraithing" as he did for the nine...

[Gordis]

Welcome to the Moot, Zilbanne!

Originally Posted by Zilbanne

Gollum, does certainly seem to be a wraith in the making. Here is something I'm considering though... Would Gollum have to have been wounded or stabbed by Sauron himself or a Nazgul in order to completely become a wraith?

Nobody knows with those hobbits, whether a Ring could or couldn't turn them into a wraith, given sufficient time. Dwarves were the most resistant - they never became wraiths and the Rings didn't even prolong their lives, it seems. But it looks like that, as hobbits lives are prolonged, they would eventually turn wraiths, only it takes far longer than with Men. Men (future nazgul) all turned into wraiths in less than 500 years - I am basing on Gandalf's words:
"Among the Wise I am the only one that goes in for hobbit-lore: an obscure branch of knowledge, but full of surprises. Soft as butter they can be, and yet sometimes as tough as old tree-roots. I think it likely that some would resist the Rings far longer than most of the Wise would believe.".

Surely stabbing Gollum with a Morgul-Knife would have turned him into a wraith. But the Morgul poison/spell was made just for wraithing people, while with the Rings, turning the wielders into wraiths might have been an undesired side-effect.

Note, that Gollum had been to Mordor, even in Barad-Dur. If the Dark Lord wished him to become a wraith, he would have dispatched him to the other side speedily. But Gollum was more useful when still in this World.

Originally Posted by Zilbanne

I wonder though did Sauron stab or wound the nine kings who eventually became ringwraiths himself, while they were under the power of the rings, in order to speed the process of becoming wraiths along?

I am almost sure he didn't. I think the "wraithing" effect was undesired. And then it is stated unambiguously that the rings ALONE turned their wielders into wraiths.

Originally Posted by Zilbanne

Frodo was stabbed by one of the nine ( was it Angmar?) and so began to turn into a wraith. Was this potential wraithing (sorry) of Frodo happening quickly because he was wearing the ONE ring when he was stabbed with the Morgul blade. Would anyone stabbed with a Morgul blade become a wraith?

The Witch-King stabbed him, yes. The wraithing of Frodo was happening far slower than normal, because he was a hobbit, not a man:

Frodo shuddered, remembering the cruel knife with notched blade that had vanished in Strider's hands. `Don't be alarmed!' said Gandalf. `It is gone now. It has been melted. And it seems that Hobbits fade very reluctantly. I have known strong warriors of the Big People who would quickly have been overcome by that splinter, which you bore for seventeen days.'

Originally Posted by Zilbanne

and maybe also because he had the One Ring in his possession.

As for the One Ring, it is an interesting question. On one hand, I think that if Frodo put the Ring on while still having the Morgul shard in his body, he would have become wraith immediately (sort of cumulative effect). On the other hand, perhaps, the Ring helped its master somehow to bear the wound? I don't know.

Originally Posted by Zilbanne

I guess what I'm considering is would Gollum have to be wounded by either Sauron or one of the Ringwraiths in order to become a wraith? As far as we know he was questioned and tortured by would he need something other than the power of the one ring working on him to be a wraith?

I think he could be turned into a wraith by a Morgul-blade - the fastest way, or he could be turned into one by the Ring - but it might have taken several more centuries.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by ecthelion

IMO, turning into a wraith requires some specific spell.
The morgul blades were probably wound about with such a spell, so getting stabbed would automatically do it.
The nine ring-beares were under the influence of their rings, so also under the influence of the one, and so under the influence of Sauron, who could have put on them a very nasty and torturous spell at his leisure.

I have no proof, but I believe that the mechanism of "wraithing" via Rings and via the Morgul-wound was different. The blade dispatched one speedily, and having made enough knives, a nazgul could "wraith" as many people as he wanted. As for the Rings, I certainly favour your second idea that the "wraithing" was an undesired side effect, an intrinsic property of this type of ring.

Originally Posted by ecthelion

Evil always delights in doing evil, both small and big. So even if the nine were less useful as wraiths than as humans, the great evil done in the process would be worth it.

I think I disagree. Sauron, especially in his earlier days as Annatar, was a very RATIONAL being. He wouldn't do something against his own interests just because of his 'evilness".

Originally Posted by ecthelion

Finally, since Sauron never expected to lose the one, it was always intended for him alone, maybe it did not have such a spell of becoming a wraith. And maybe all its effects and powers we see on gollum and the hobbits, are all side effects, and a mortal wearer would not become a wraith.

I think, here is a very interesting observation. Indeed, the One was meant for Sauron, and not to ensnare anyone else. But it is said, that in order to rule all the other 19 Rings, the One had the power exceeding that of all the 19 combined.
I think, it also had all the powers, properties and side-effects contained in the other rings, including invisibility (because really why would Sauron need invisibility himself?). The One Ring, when wielded by Sauron to its fill power, could "kindle hearts" as Narya, preserve large territories from fading, like Nenya, transfer a physical body into the Spirit world as the 9, could make people greedy as the 7, and so on. So a mortal wielder of the One would become a wraith, but not much faster than one wielding one of the 9.

Originally Posted by ecthelion

I think Sauron also didn't have power over the bearer, and could not put the wearer under a spell of "wraithing" as he did for the nine...

The first part of your idea is very true. Sauron gained practically no power over Gollum. The wretch, when questioned by Sauron personally, could even feed him some lies undetected ("and what he knew, he falsified" - UT) and hated Sauron's very guts instead of becoming a faithful servant.

For the same reason, Sauron couldn't bestow the Nine he has gathered to himself to men again, to make more nazgul, while he had NO Ruling ring in his possession. The wielder of one of the Nine in the Third Age would have become a wraith, but not Sauron's servant.