Were the Nazgul incapable of suicide? (Even though it wasn’t such a bad idea)

[CAB]

I would think it is very likely that at least one of the Nazgul wished to end his existence in Middle Earth. Aside from all the considerable disadvantages to living as a wraith, there is the fact that in Tolkien’s universe Men’s spirits sought to leave the world after a certain amount of time. Whether or not one believes that he would like to live forever in the real world, in Tolkien’s it is a given that Men do not, even if they don’t know it.

Early in the Third Age the Nazgul had the opportunity to end their “lives”. Sauron’s spirit was very weak and he didn’t have either the One or the nine rings. Any of the Nazgul who wished could have traveled to Orodruin and cast their rings into the fire. But there is the catch. I would guess that, just like Frodo, they were entirely incapable of destroying their rings (I guess this part is pretty obvious). It is even possible that Gandalf knew that Frodo would be unable to even attempt to damage the Ring because of rumors concerning failed Nazgul suicide attempts (a little unlikely, I think) or maybe just by reasoning that since the Nazgul were all still “alive” they were unable to willingly destroy their rings.

Any thoughts?

[Jon S.]

This might interest you:

http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q79-SauronHeld(last revised 21 July 2002 )

Were the Nazgûl wearing their Rings at the time of The Lord of the Rings?

Though this question does occasion perennial controversy on r.a.b.t, the great weight of the evidence supports the conclusion that Sauron had them.

Evidence that Sauron had them
Most importantly, Tolkien says so in a lot of places:

“... Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control. ...” [L #246 (331), also on the Web]

Gandalf tells Frodo, “the Nine [Sauron] has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed.” [LotR I 2 (65)]

Galadriel tells Frodo that, looking in her mirror, “You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine.” [LotR II 7 (386)]

In “The Hunt for the Ring”, we read of Sauron’s “mightiest servants, the Ring-wraiths, who had no will but his own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held.” [UT: HR (338)]

In another version of “The Hunt for the Ring”, again we read that the Ringwraiths “were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which [Sauron] now himself held”. [UT: HR (343)]

(Thanks to Conrad Dunkerson for pointing out several of the above.)

From these quotes it seems fairly clear that Tolkien conceived that Sauron had direct physical possession of the Nine Rings, not indirect possession through having the Nine on the fingers of his slaves. I really don’t see any other way to read the quotes from Letters and the two versions of “The Hunt for the Ring”. Furthermore, the two quotes from The Lord of the Rings link the Seven and Nine as “held” in the same way, and we know for certain that Sauron had physical possession of those of the Seven that were still in existence.

Beyond quotes, some physical circumstances suggest that the Nazgûl did not wear their rings. These are merely suggestive, not conclusive in themselves:

The Nazgûl’s black robes were visible. If they were wearing Great Rings, we would have expected their clothes to be invisible too.

On Weathertop, after he put on the One Ring, Frodo could see the Nazgûl’s mantles, robes, hair color, helms, “haggard hands”, and swords, as well as the Witch-king’s crown and knife. [LotR I 11 (212)] There is no mention of his seeing their Rings. Yet we know that while merely carrying the Ring in Lórien Frodo could see Galadriel’s Ring: “it cannot be hidden from the Ring-bearer, and one who has seen the Eye,” she tells him [LotR II 7 (384)]. (Those who don’t accept this line of reasoning can point out that the attack at Weathertop occurred before Frodo had seen the Eye.)

When the Witch-king was destroyed on the Pelennor Fields, no Ring was found. Since the Nine Rings had gems, it would have sparkled in the sun; though of course it could have been missed in long grass.

Evidence that the Nazgûl still wore the Nine Rings
Only one citation goes that way, as far as I know, namely Gandalf’s remark at the Council of Elrond: “The Nine the Nazgûl keep.” [LotR II 2 (267)] In a previous edition of this FAQ I tried to explain the quote away as inverted word order for “The Nine keep the Nazgûl [in Sauron’s thralldom].” But I believe a simpler and better explanation is external: Tolkien intended at one time that the Nazgûl should still be wearing their Rings, but he later changed his mind and simply missed revising that sentence.

Conrad Dunkerson supports this view with textual evidence from The History of Middle-earth: [r.a.b.t article, 17 Feb 2002, archived here]: “Tolkien wrote the ‘Nine the Nazgûl keep’ line during one of the drafts of the Council of Elrond. Then much later he wrote that the Nazgûl were increased in power before the Battle of the Pelennor Fields because Sauron had returned their Rings to them. If Sauron was only returning the Rings at that point then Tolkien could not have intended that they were wearing them at the time of the Council.”

Apart from texts, some have argued that the Nazgûl must have been wearing their Rings, or else they would have aged as Bilbo did. But the cases are not parallel: Bilbo had not become a wraith, and we have no reason to think that a wraith would age or change in any way, being no longer in the physical world. Also, Gollum was centuries older than Bilbo, but he showed no signs at all of aging in the seven decades after he lost his Ring. (For that matter, Bilbo didn’t age very much after giving up the One Ring, until after it was destroyed.)

Conclusion
While not quite one-sided, the textual evidence favors very strongly indeed the conclusion that, at the end of the Third Age, Sauron had physical possession of the Nine Rings. Physical circumstances also suggest this, though other explanations are possible. But the physical evidence is well reinforced by direct textual evidence, against a single quote that says the opposite. You decide!

(What is not known is just when Sauron took the Nine Rings back from the Nazgûl, assuming that he did. We know it was some time before the Nazgûl began hunting for the One Ring, but whether it was immediately before or much earlier we cannot tell. That Sauron, even without the One, could get the Nazgûl to give up the Nine Rings, there is little doubt, since no mortal could have withheld even the One from him.)

[Butterbeer]

people tend to forget Tolkien was writing a story , not a legal water-tight document.

What is wrong with gandalf, beleieving at the council that the nine held them?

they knew not for sure, i see no inconsitency with gandalf beleiving this. Sauron beleived they would never attempt to destroy the ring!

Tolkien would have no problem with this, whether it is or isn't a contradiction, simply because it cannot be one since his character beleived this (right or wrong )to be the case at the council - that is all, it makes not one iota of difference to anything else.... it is abundantly clear even Elrond was not 100% certain, nor Gandalf nor Galadriel what would happen on the demise of the One - how could they know for sure?




Jonathon - perhaps you should re-read the question?

We are talking about the period between the finger slicer (TM Valandil) and son's family on-location butcher business's attempted final-cut and the re-emergence of sauron up prior to the time of 'the war of the rings'

... question is, do they have the rings THEN ... presumably yes - for one look at the Witch King of Angmar.

did Sauron on his re-emergence then re-take one by one the rings from the Nine?

what i have never understood is this:

Since the one on the hand of sauron would control and bind all the other rings ... why did it not do so when he HAD it on his hand in full power before the armies of Gil-galad and Elendil popped on by for a rumble?

At the point of it's forging when Big Cele became aware of its intention - did they all, as quick as whores dropping their knickers, take off their rings???

[CAB]

Thank you for your reply Jon, but Butterbeer is right. You will notice I began the second paragraph “Early in the Third Age”.

I have seen this exact argument before, and I absolutely agree that Sauron took the Nazguls’ rings at some point. But this doesn’t really apply to the idea I posted here because the Nazgul probably kept their rings for at least a thousand years during the first part of the Third Age.

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

Since the one on the hand of sauron would control and bind all the other rings ... why did it not do so when he HAD it on his hand in full power before the armies of Gil-galad and Elendil popped on by for a rumble?

At the point of it's forging when Big Cele became aware of its intention - did they all, as quick as whores dropping their knickers, take off their rings???

I’m not sure what you mean Butterbeer. It is said that the Elves immediately removed their rings when they became aware of the One. By the time of the war they only held onto the three rings. Certainly they didn’t put them back on until after Sauron’s defeat. The holders of the seven rings couldn’t be subjugated this way, and the holders of the nine fought for Sauron.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

What is wrong with gandalf, beleieving at the council that the nine held them?

they knew not for sure, I see no inconsitency with gandalf beleiving this. Sauron beleived they would never attempt to destroy the ring!

Tolkien would have no problem with this, whether it is or isn't a contradiction, simply because it cannot be one since his character beleived this (right or wrong )to be the case at the council - that is all, it makes not one iota of difference to anything else.... it is abundantly clear even Elrond was not 100% certain, nor Gandalf nor Galadriel what would happen on the demise of the One - how could they know for sure?

I thank you for your support Butterbeer, but I didn’t really suggest that Gandalf thought that the Nazgul still had their rings late in the Third Age. The important part is that he believed/knew that they had them early in the Third age (when they would have been free of Sauron’s control), yet they all were still “alive” much later.

[Jon S.]

My name is not short for Jonathan - it's Jon.

CAB, yes, I read your original note carefully. That's why I took the time to cut and paste the FAQ excerpt here.

Did you (and Butterbeer) read this part (emphasis added)?

>> (What is not known is just when Sauron took the Nine Rings back from the Nazgûl, assuming that he did. We know it was some time before the Nazgûl began hunting for the One Ring, but whether it was immediately before or much earlier we cannot tell. That Sauron, even without the One, could get the Nazgûl to give up the Nine Rings, there is little doubt, since no mortal could have withheld even the One from him.)

If not, now that you have, do you have additional thoughts to share on the suicide question?

EDIT: P.S.

>> I would think it is very likely that at least one of the Nazgul wished to end his existence in Middle Earth.

Even accepting this as true (I have my doubts), why so soon? Why not after, say, 10,000 years? Or 6,000? Or 12,000? The point being perhaps what you're doing here is more projecting what you would think and do in a similar situation than describing accurately what the 9 ex-kings felt and wanted.

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

what i have never understood is this:

Since the one on the hand of sauron would control and bind all the other rings ... why did it not do so when he HAD it on his hand in full power before the armies of Gil-galad and Elendil popped on by for a rumble?

At the point of it's forging when Big Cele became aware of its intention - did they all, as quick as whores dropping their knickers, take off their rings???

As a matter of fact, that's precisely what they did - upon Sauron wielding the One, not literally at its forging - as explained in The Simarillion (perhaps you didn't read it carefully? ):

"But the Elves were not so lightly to be caught. As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings."

[CAB]

We know it was some time before the Nazgûl began hunting for the One Ring, but whether it was immediately before or much earlier we cannot tell.

Originally Posted by Jon S.

If not, now that you have, do you have additional thoughts to share on the suicide question?

I did consider that part (I guess I should have been more clear about that). We can’t know, but I think it is only reasonable to assume that there was more than enough time for any of the Nazgul who wished to make the journey back to Orodruin (assuming this trip was necessary, since it is said that only the One had to be destroyed only there). Even if it was at the top of his “to do list”, I personally doubt that Sauron, in his much weakened state, could have recovered the rings from the Nazgul for many years.

Originally Posted by Jon S.

The point being perhaps what you're doing here is more projecting what you would think and do in a similar situation than describing accurately what the 9 ex-kings felt and wanted.

What else can I do? We don’t know a great deal about what the Nazgul thought (before or after they became wraiths). Whenever one considers someone else’s actions or motivations, his own feelings will bias that view. I think that is inescapable no matter how objective one tries to be. At least it is for me. But you are right when you say that it might not be an accurate assessment. It is just an (educated) guess.

Originally Posted by Jon S.

>> I would think it is very likely that at least one of the Nazgul wished to end his existence in Middle Earth.

Even accepting this as true (I have my doubts), why so soon? Why not after, say, 10,000 years? Or 6,000? Or 12,000?

Again, just a (less educated, this time) guess. Apparently humans could still desire life after 400 years (see the Numenoreans). But why would Eru “design” Men to not seek escape for thousands of years? It just seems a bit excessive for people who only live for such a relatively short time.

By the way Jon, I do appreciate you cutting/pasting the FAQ. Like I said, I have seen it before (I think Gordis posted a link to it once), but maybe some of the others here haven’t. I think it is a pretty solid argument.

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Originally Posted by CAB

By the way Jon, I do appreciate you cutting/pasting the FAQ. Like I said, I have seen it before (I think Gordis posted a link to it once), but maybe some of the others here haven’t. I think it is a pretty solid argument.

I appreciate it too. I hadn't seen it before and it was a good read. Thanks.

There isn't a lot known about the Nine Rings right? Maybe some of the power that Sauron put into them was to robe them of this thought. Make them 'forget' about the desire to leave Middle-Earth. I mean, they weren't designed to be given to say.....hobbits, or dragons, or whatever, right? I don't know much about the lore of the Rings of Power. I've only read The Hobbit and the LotR series so most of what I know I've picked up here. Which I am most thankful for. You see, I'm lazy and if someone can just tell me the info without me having to do the work to look it up, I'll take it.