Swords in the Troll's Cave

[HLGStrider]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Nice bump HGLStrider. I have a theory too... what if orcs
EDIT: Bump credited to the right person.

Thanks for the credit. . but I am curious why it is so easy to call me HGLStrider. If it were just you I'd say TYPO, but half the people on my other forum used to do that too.

[Roland]

As I am sure you will recall, the sword taken from the Troll's cave had belonged to heroes. At any rate they were quite famous. Heroes, or those who wield famous swords are unlikely to be killed in a single battle. They probably escaped and were kill afterwards by marauding orks, from whom the trolls stole them.

[Findegil]

Of Gandalfs sword Glamdring it was told by Elrond in the Hobbit that it was the sword of the king of Gondolin. Gondolin had have only one king and that was Turgon. His death in the Battle that brought his city to ruin is attested, what ever version of the story you look at.
Turgon did in the end refuse to fight and died in the Fall of his tower standing un the top of it when it was crushed. But nither for Glamdring nor for Orcrist or Stich we have any text that suggests that they were take out of Gondolin by the Elves. At the conteray we have Elronds saying in the Hobbit:"... They must have come from a dragon's hoard or goblin plunder, for dragons and goblins destroyed that city many ages ago. ..."

Respectfully
Findegil

[me9996]

Now you know what I'm going to say so... I'm not!

[Mouth of the Dark Lord]

Originally Posted by Athelwinde

In the chapter called "Roast Mutton", the Dwarves and Bilbo and Gandalf go to the trolls cave and find some very ancient and interesting swords.

My question for discussion is
1. How did the trolls, of all people, get a hold of these swords from Gondolin, especially since the land of Beleriand was sunk?

The trolls probably just slaughtered the swords' wielders, being heroes, or descendants of the heroes, or whatever and kept the loot from their bodies.

[Gordis]

Sorry it is off-topic, but it is really curious how 2 swords (or a sword and a dagger) from Gondolin could have ended in a troll den in Rhudaur... Perhaps a high elf was killed there during the Angmar wars?

[Landroval]

- I could not say, said Elrond, but one may guess that your trolls had plundered other plunderers, or come on the remnants of old robberies in some hold in the mountains of the North. I have heard that there are still forgotten treasures of old to be found in the deserted caverns of the mines of Moria, since the dwarf and goblin war.

From A short rest, The hobbit.

[Gordis]

Thanks for the quote, Landroval.

Some hoard... That means still that a Gondolin elf was killed in the Second or the Third age, as otherwise the weapons would have been drowned with Beleriand.

I think my explanation is also plausible, as at the times of "the Hobbit" the conception of Rhudaur and the Angmar wars had not yet arisen.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

there is one version of the forging of the rings, IIRC, that says that Celebrimbor was an elf of gondolin, and he lived in eregion in the second age, seems plausible to me that he would have swords from gondolin...

[Gordis]

In the Second Age Celebrimbor lived in Eregion, indeed, till he was slain by Sauron around SA 1695. So whatever may have been saved from Ost-in Edil could have found ist way to Moria nearby.

But Celebrimbor was not from Gondolin, but from Nargothrond. He was a son of Curufin, son of Feanor, who decided to stay with Orodreth.

There was tumult in Nargothrond. For thither now returned many Elves that had been prisoners in the isle of Sauron; and a clamour arose that no words of Celegorm could still. They lamented bitterly the fall of Felagund their king, saying that a maiden had dared that which the sons of Fëanor had not dared to do; but many perceived that it was treachery rather than fear that had guided Celegorm and Curufin. There fore the hearts of the people of Nargothrond were released from their dominion, and turned again to the house of Finarfin; and they obeyed Orodreth. But he would not suffer them to slay the brothers, as some desired, for the spilling of kindred blood by kin would bind the cures of Mandos more closely upon them all. Yet neither bread nor rest would he grant to Celegorm and Curufin within his realm, and he swore that there should be little love between Nargothrond and the sons of Fëanor there after.

'Let it be so!' said Celegorm, and there was a light of menace in his eyes; but Curufin smiled. Ten they took horse and rode away like fire, to find if they might their kindred in the east. But none would go with them, not even those that were of their own people; for all perceived that the curse lay heavily upon the brothers, and that evil followed them. In that time Celebrimbor the son of Curufin repudiated the deeds of his father, and remained in Nargothrond; yet Huan followed still the horse of Celegorm his master.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

yes but there was never only one versionof accounts in tolkien's works, was there? i am sure there is one version somehwere (UT?) that states that celebrimbor came from gondolin (greatest smith of gondolin, IIRC), but even if he didn't he might have had weaponry etc from the hidden city

[Gordis]

Bravo, Last Child!

I checked the UT and found that you were right- there was an earlier version!

Galadriel and Celeborn had in their company a Noldorin craftsman named Celebrimbor. [He is here said to have been one of the survivors of Gondolin, who had been among Turgon's greatest artificers; but the text is emended to the later story that made him a descendant of Fëanor, as is mentioned in Appendix B to The Lord of the Rings (in the revised edition only), and more fully detailed in The Silmarillion (pp. 176,276), where he is said to have been the son of Curufin, the fifth son of Fëanor, who was estranged from his father and remained in Nargothrond when Celegorm and Curufin were driven forth.] UT - Galadriel and Celeborn

[Gordis]

I wonder where the survivors of Gondolin might have ended up in the Second and the Thitd Age.

Glorfindel made it to Imladris, but he was atypical, as he passed via Mandos.

Is it said anywhere where was Erestor from? Or Gildor?

I think, given the Mirdain's love for crafts, some elves from Gondolin may have settled in Eregion, and as the survivors of Eregon were rescued by Elrond, they naturally came to live in Imladris.

So one of them may have been slain later on (TA 1356-1400 or 1974-75?) in Rhudaur...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

IIRC correctly Gildor was from Nargothrond, or somewhere else where Finarfin's children settled but I'll get a quote in a bit.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i expect most of those that remained in ME after Beleriand was sunk ended up either with Cirdan & Gil-Galad at the Havens, or with Celebrimbor in Eregion, and so eventually ending up with Galadriel in Lorien, Elrond in Imladris or with Cirdan at the Havens

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Wayfarer, The Fall of Gondolin was published during Tolkiens life time! It is the only version we have of that battle. All what we later get are very short summaries and even the newest of that is totally outdated. So if you like to have any details you have to take them out of that version.

(...)

It is clear that you can restrict your view on the matters of Middle-Earth so that The Fall of Gondolin is not included (but since it was acctually published, it is not so easy as it seems to rule it out), but than you should stop answering any questions about it, since what you will know about it is only that there was a city named Gondolin and that it was destroyed by Dragons and Orks.

Hmm, I don't think anyone in the thread questioned this... way back when

But I don't recall that any version of The Fall of Gondolin was published in Tolkien's lifetime...

... in the spring of 1920 JRRT read a version of the tale to an Essay Club ( Exeter college), but for myself I don't consider that equivalent to publication -- not that Findegil does necessarily, but I can't find any reference to this version, or any other, being published while Tolkien was alive.

Anyone?

[john21wall]

Yes. The answer to this question was hotly debated by fans for nearly two decades, but when the Peoples of Middle-earth was published in 1996 it became possible to give a definitive answer. In The Silmarillion, Glorfindel is slain fighting a Balrog during the Fall of Gondolin. When writing The Lord of the Rings Tolkien simply reused the name, and the characteristics, of the earlier character from the as-yet-unpublished narrative.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Galin

Hmm, I don't think anyone in the thread questioned this... way back when
:
:
:

Uncharacteristic of us - especially at that time, when we had a lot of very astute and informed Tolkien fans regularly on the board and happy to speak (write) their minds.

Welcome to Entmoot - john21wall!

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by john21wall

Yes. The answer to this question was hotly debated by fans for nearly two decades, but when the Peoples of Middle-earth was published in 1996 it became possible to give a definitive answer. In The Silmarillion, Glorfindel is slain fighting a Balrog during the Fall of Gondolin. When writing The Lord of the Rings Tolkien simply reused the name, and the characteristics, of the earlier character from the as-yet-unpublished narrative.

Thinking about this a little more - I think JRRT boxed himself in with the notion that the Elves never re-used a name. That each one had a unique name unto themselves. Seems unrealistic, since the various groups of Elves were always out of contact with one another for great lengths of times. Two different Elves named Glorfindel? So what? Makes sense that a lot of Elves would name their new son after a famous hero slain in the Fall of Gondolin.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Thinking about this a little more - I think JRRT boxed himself in with the notion that the Elves never re-used a name. That each one had a unique name unto themselves. Seems unrealistic, since the various groups of Elves were always out of contact with one another for great lengths of times. Two different Elves named Glorfindel? So what? Makes sense that a lot of Elves would name their new son after a famous hero slain in the Fall of Gondolin.

This idea seems to get posted on the web now and then, but as far as I recall Tolkien didn't write that Elves never re-used a name, and in The Lord of the Rings itself we appear to have two Elves named Rúmil, for instance.

Tolkien wrote -- and only in the very late text in which he considered the case of Glorfindel -- that the name Glorfindel itself should not be repeated... but that said, to my mind his reasoning in this text (again, which was written very late and never published by the author in any case, which I think means that he should feel no great pressure to stand by it) doesn't seem all that compelling to me. Anyway, even if we accept JRRT's reasoning there, generally speaking Elves can have the same name. In the same late text JRRT notes an example that could be repeated, Galdor, and in my opinion the The Shibboleth of Feanor seems to suggest that a number of Elves named their children Argon, in honour of Arakano.

Earlier (Morgoth's Ring) Tolkien noted that certain Elves tried to keep the specific type of name known as the "Chosen-name" (which is suggested to represent a Noldorin custom) unique, but that as time went on, even the Chosen-name could be repeated [note: Christopher Tolkien wondered if this type of Chosen-name, chosen by Elf-children after their lámatyáve had kicked in, was retained in later years, as the admittedly more brief discussion of Elven-naming in The Shibboleth of Feanor does not mention it].

Again that was only one kind of name in any event.

As a side note: even earlier than the publication of The Peoples of Middle-Earth, Christopher Tolkien explained what his father had decided about Glorfindel, although yes, the actual Glorfindel essays (one of them is incomplete) were not published until HME 12...

... or The Peoples of Middle-Earth

Edit: interestingly, according to late texts Nerdanel named her last two sons Ambarussa, although Feanor desired that this should not be so, and admittedly this could be an arguably unique scenario.