Swords in the Troll's Cave

[Findegil]

Posted by Artanis:

Findegil, what is included in MM's core canon?

The last editions of every Book of JRR Tolkien about Middle-Earth published during JRR Tolkiens livetime.
I will not relock the edition numbers but basicly that means:
The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, The Adventures of Tom Bombadil and The Road Goes ever On

Posted by Maedhros:

Findegil, I think you made a very good point in your description of the various dragons/monsters in the Mechanical Monsters in the Barrows. Could you be so kind as to post the various types of monsters in this thread for clarity.

Since our discussion in Downs had gone beyond my original post, I can't simply copy it to this board. I will see if I can rework it, too make it understandable with out the discussion preciding it in the Downs and taking up the recend developments in the further discussion.

Posted by Wayfarer:

I can't imagine any Orcs being willing to steal a pair of swords the mere sight of which, three ages later, sends them into a panic.

Did they panic, when Orcrist was shown to the great Orc? I don't think so. Thes did pnaic when Glamding and later Orcrist was used against them.
And for what propose had the Orcs in The Hobbit brought the sword into the cave if not for use or hord as a booty?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Valandil]

Since it was around 6500 years between the sack of Gondolin and the discovery of these swords in the trolls' lair, and because they were recognized by the orcs (perhaps used against them in the War of the Orcs and Dwarves?), I suspect the swords shared quite a history - and probably changed hands many times.

Here's a wild one for you though: Arador, grandfather of Aragorn, was taken by trolls and killed just 11 years before Gandalf, Bilbo, Thorin & Co. had their own troll encounter in the same general area. Could these three trolls have been the trolls who killed Arador?

They sure seem kind of bumbling to pull it off - but Tolkien was using a different style when he wrote The Hobbit. And Arador obviously didn't have Gandalf along.

Could Arador and possible companions have recently "come into" the swords of Gondolin? And had THEY used them on local orcs?

Curiouser, perhaps, is why one of two such treasures would be laid to rest with Thorin - who had only carried it briefly - and though he was the direct heir of Durin's line - was he really important enough to bury that sword with?

[Rían]

Good theory about Arador and the swords, Valandil! So many fun things to speculate about ...

I always wondered what Elrond thought when he recognized his great-grandfather's sword ... he seemed rather matter-of-fact about it. I would think he would have been more touched by the sorrow of the memory of the Fall of Gondolin.

I wondered about Thorin being buried with the sword, too, but I guess it was "finders, keepers", and he DID find it.

[Valandil]

*bumping* this for a few reasons:

1. To help spur more discussion in the Hobbit forum.

2. To encourage others to look for interesting older threads to revive.

3. Because our "unofficial discussion project" is a bit stalled - and this topic fits right into about where we are.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Valandil
Could Arador and possible companions have recently "come into" the swords of Gondolin? And had THEY used them on local orcs?

Curiouser, perhaps, is why one of two such treasures would be laid to rest with Thorin - who had only carried it briefly - and though he was the direct heir of Durin's line - was he really important enough to bury that sword with?

Maybe the swords were carried by the Gondolin survivors, in the Sirion. From here you can just guess what happened to them until they got to the trolls - maybe the trolls attacked them. Which sounds likely.
About Arador... The only question is, why would he carry the Gpondolin swords, but it sounds logical, that he had them.

I think it was buried with Thorin because it was his sword, and its history doesn't matter. It is considered his sword like Glamdring considered Gandalf's sword.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I'm guessing the swords were already there as the trolls mention they had only moved down from the mountain 2 weeks before so maybe it was an elvish storage place that had been forgottan about or deserted.

[Haradrim]

I think probably what happened was that several elves came back to the battle site. They probably searched the dead to see if anyone was still alive or tosearch for anythin gof value. THey found the swords and took them . Eventually they were passed from elf to elf. Maybe at one point while an elf was roaming outside of rivendell The three trollsd pounced. COnsidering that there was an elf with a sword like those there probably was a fourth troll. The remaining three kill the elf take the swords, not caring if they used to kill orcs cuz theua re goblins and then they put it in their cave and then our little group of adventurers comes along.

[Radagast The Brown]

Why would elves look in the bodies of their dead, For profit? I think they'd burry them, with the sword - like Thorin. Also, I don't think they had time to search for other Elves - as they were running away of Morgoth's forces, and probably didn't have much time.

And, I can't see how an Elf could get back to Gondolin after it was ruined, since not many knew the way, and Morgoth ruled those lands.

[Haradrim]

Well maybe an orc went back after the fall of GOndolin after which he was kiled by a troll while traveling. That troll may have been killed by an elf. the elf recovered the weapons and on his way back to Rivendell our favorite trolls attacked him and took the swords. The swords being to small for them put them on display in their caves until our heroes came along and took them.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Haradrim

Well maybe an orc went back after the fall of GOndolin after which he was kiled by a troll while traveling. That troll may have been killed by an elf. the elf recovered the weapons and on his way back to Rivendell our favorite trolls attacked him and took the swords. The swords being to small for them put them on display in their caves until our heroes came along and took them.

It seems quite comlicated to me, and without any need - what about the Elves just taking the swords while running away, and being attacked by trolls, somewhere? Or the trolls taking the swords themselves from Gondolin?

[Haradrim]

well seveal people have said that there were no trolls in Gondolin whihc I find a little wierd. So I figured that ruled out the whole trol thing but also I didnt think the elves would take the weapons from their dead but let them keep it like thorin. Thats what someone said, cant remember who.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Haradrim

well seveal people have said that there were no trolls in Gondolin whihc I find a little wierd. So I figured that ruled out the whole trol thing but also I didnt think the elves would take the weapons from their dead but let them keep it like thorin. Thats what someone said, cant remember who.

I have. I meant - maybe the swords weren't used in the battle, as Morgoth surprised them, and the Elves took them as thye were special and inmportant.

[Haradrim]

hmm interesting theroy. It does make since. In that case they would have been beaten by trolls outside Rivendell and then those trolls put them in their cave until Bilbo. But then again why would the elves not use the sword specifically having to do with orc slaying in a fight with orcs. It just raises more and more questions! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Haradrim

hmm interesting theroy. It does make since. In that case they would have been beaten by trolls outside Rivendell and then those trolls put them in their cave until Bilbo. But then again why would the elves not use the sword specifically having to do with orc slaying in a fight with orcs. It just raises more and more questions! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Simply didn't have time to go and look for them. And, you don't really know where they were attacked - could well be in Beleriand, too.

[Haradrim]

yeah thats true. So the elves keep the swords that are specifically used for fighting orcs (s little odd) are wayleighed somwhere on their way home. Then those trolls put the swords in their caves until Bilbo comes along. Its possible except the removal of the swords from the battle. If they strike fear in orcs then why wouldnt they be used. Also didnt Elrond say that they were used in Gondolin.

[HLGStrider]

I hate to pop in just to be a fault finder who can't back info, but on the other site I'm on, the Arador and the Trolls theory was brought up and another member pointed out that the Trolls that slew Arador were one species and the trolls that had the swords were another.

Cave and Wood or Wood and Stone were something like the names he gave to them. I argued that Stone Trolls was just describing them because they were made of stone when they reappear in LotR's but he argued with a few back up quotes that there are actually two species, and Stone Troll is one of them.

Hill Troll? Something like that.

As I said, I dont' have the quotes with me, but there are quotes to that effect.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by HLGStrider

I hate to pop in just to be a fault finder who can't back info, but on the other site I'm on, the Arador and the Trolls theory was brought up and another member pointed out that the Trolls that slew Arador were one species and the trolls that had the swords were another.

Cave and Wood or Wood and Stone were something like the names he gave to them. I argued that Stone Trolls was just describing them because they were made of stone when they reappear in LotR's but he argued with a few back up quotes that there are actually two species, and Stone Troll is one of them.

Hill Troll? Something like that.

As I said, I dont' have the quotes with me, but there are quotes to that effect.

Ah yes - 'Hill Troll' sounds familiar for the chief suspects in Arador's murder. Hmmm... I wonder if they actually WERE different species, or just called by various names. Or even... *gasp*... IN LEAGUE WITH ONE ANOTHER!!!



EDIT: PS - did this 'other theory' also bring up the possibility that Arador & Co. were carrying the swords of Gondolin? Huh? Huh? Or did I getcha there??

[Nurvingiel]

Nice bump HGLStrider. I have a theory too... what if orcs looted the swords after the battle, but recognized them for what they were, and tossed them? The orcs in the Hobbit hated the swords, calling the Biter and Beater, so it seems they recognized them. Maybe the swords were part of horrible tales used to frighten orc children, and the orcs remembered the weapons.
Other looters could have picked up the discarded swords, to be eventually stolen by the trolls where Gandalf and company then obtained them.

EDIT: Bump credited to the right person.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Val didn't bump it HLGStrider did!

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally Posted by Haradrim

well seveal people have said that there were no trolls in Gondolin whihc I find a little wierd.

And some of us (particularly the most Intellignet ) Believe they were there.