Entertaining the Dwarves

[Comic Book Guy]

In the first chapter, 'An unexpected Party' we see Bilbo Baggins serving modern day food to Gandalf and the 13 Dwarves, they range from Coffee, Wine, Eggs (Thorin refers to fried and Poached eggs), Milk, cakes and scones. Did Tolkien use these foods to help create a more childish fairy tale or are they supposed to be normal in Middle-Earth and the Shire?

The dwarves also use musical instruments that seem strange and out of place to Middle-Earth, such as the clarinet, is this to help relate to the world we know?

[emplynx]

I didn't ever think about that. He probably just had that in there because it was a childrens story, I guess....

[Ñólendil]

Sure, but they can be explained. Tolkien said in a Letter once that he regretted many modernisms that came into the Lord of the Rings. Particularly, he said, he should not have given Hobbits umbrellas. But he explained it by saying that 'umbrellas' was only an Anglicization, a device to mark them out as different from other cultures. The modern food can readily be explained as Tolkien's 'translation': he used food that would be familiar to us.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
Particularly, he said, he should not have given Hobbits umbrellas. But he explained it by saying that 'umbrellas' was only an Anglicization, a device to mark them out as different from other cultures.

Not sure how to interpret your meaning here.
Did the Dwarves in fact have a totally different item than an umbrella?

[Ñólendil]

I guess you mean 'Hobbits'. Yes, that's what I'm saying. They may not infact have used anything like umbrellas, or anything with the same purpose. They should be regarded as a device to shed light on their culture, and it's difference from others. Just like the names. There was never a Hobbit named Bilbo Baggins. That's your Angilcization. The little hero's name was infact Bilba Labingi, a name belonging to the Hobbitish dialect of the genuine Common Speech of the late Third Age. Nor did a Hobbit actually call herself a Hobbit, but a 'Kuduk'.

[Comic Book Guy]

Did Tolkien invent the Common Language (or westron)?

[Ñólendil]

No one else did, that's for sure. He invented a lot of it, though naturally one man can never make enough: click here for more on Westron.

[easterlinge]

I don't have a problem with umbrellas, the Chinese had them for many centuries.

[Kirinki54]

Isn´t that rather slippery, letting characters use items that are not really there? If you push this to the logic limit, things might get rather awkward and you had no idea what anything was about really?

[Ñólendil]

I think the idea of 'translation' and 'modernization' is a useful device to explain things that don't seem to fit: such as English names and umbrellas. It shouldn't be applied where it does not seem useful. Actually it shouldn't be applied at all with certainty if we don't have evidence from Tolkien.

Here's a task for you: explain why ancient verses and poems rhyme perfectly when translated into modern English.

[ryan]

Gee. Wouldn't the book have been so much better if Bilbo busted out his brand new Fender strat and a 6-foot tall amp and blasted out music to the songs they sing in his house? Put Gimli on the bass, and maybe Gandalf can do the drums? Turn the hobbit into a punk-rock extravaganza!

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by ryan
Gee. Wouldn't the book have been so much better if Bilbo busted out his brand new Fender strat and a 6-foot tall amp and blasted out music to the songs they sing in his house? Put Gimli on the bass, and maybe Gandalf can do the drums? Turn the hobbit into a punk-rock extravaganza!

No.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
I think the idea of 'translation' and 'modernization' is a useful device to explain things that don't seem to fit: such as English names and umbrellas. It shouldn't be applied where it does not seem useful. Actually it shouldn't be applied at all with certainty if we don't have evidence from Tolkien.

Here's a task for you: explain why ancient verses and poems rhyme perfectly when translated into modern English.

Well, the two examples are hardly similar.
But, sure, I understand your point about modernisation.

So Inoldonil my dearest fella
Lets not fight over an umbrella

[Ñólendil]

You don't see the similarity between umbrellas and English names -- when seemingly presented as being used and borne by a people who lived over six thousand years ago?

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
You don't see the similarity between umbrellas and English names -- when seemingly presented as being used and borne by a people who lived over six thousand years ago?

Allright, there is a certain degree of similarity in comparing changing names and bringing in anachronistic objects to familiarise the milieu. But the the two methods are hardly the same.

[Ñólendil]

No, certainly not.

[Grand Admiral Reese]

Gods, I quoted the wrong post...don't mind this...

[galadriel]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
Here's a task for you: explain why ancient verses and poems rhyme perfectly when translated into modern English.

Ever read poetic translations of Dante, the Iliad, etc? Many of them rhyme. Of course, it's incredibly difficult to translate a poem and retain both the rhyme scheme and the meaning, especially when you're talking about Tolkien's more complex rhyme schemes. Still, it can be done.

[Kirinki54]

Stubborn on the umbrella issue!

Even in the LotR they appear:

"There were several labels of this sort: For ADELARD TOOK, for his VERY OWN, from Bilbo, on an umbrella. Adelard had carried off many unlabelled ones."

[Ñólendil]

Yes, I was mostly talking about the Lord of the Rings before. Indeed when Tolkien said that umbrellas were a mistake, and that they ought to be looked at as translations, he was referring to the Lord of the Rings. So there!