Laketown - East or West Shore of Esgaroth?

[Valandil]

For some reason - maybe proximity on a map I saw, or just early assumptions - I always thought Laketown was on the east side of the Lake Esgaroth. That is - the opposite side from which the Forest River runs into the lake.

But on my current re-read of The Hobbit, it seems pretty clear that it's on the west side - just barely down the lake from where the Forest River flows in.

Did anyone else think it was across the lake? And how did I get that impression in the first place?

[Midge]

I think the map that we all see (the map of the Lonely Mountain in the Hobbit) is turned so that the actual cardinal direction N is on the left side of the map, instead of the top. It makes it look like the mountain is north of the lake and Mirkwood is south of the lake, and Laketown, which is on the southwest corner of the lake look like it's on the East shore.

Tolkien probably did a number on every one of his fans by switching the orientation of that map.

Edit: Checked out the maps and the Lonely Mountain map doesn't actually include the exact position of Laketown - just an arrow pointing to the east that says "In Esgaroth upon the Long Lake dwell men" and the big map of middle earth puts the text "Esgaroth the Long Lake" on the east side of the lake because it would be too cramped on the west side.

Second Edit: I did always think the Long Lake was long from west to east, but it looks like it might be long from north to south.

[Valandil]

It was probably the text location that got me. In about every case, the text is shown on the east bank, whereas Laketown seems like it's actually on the west bank. I guess that makes a big difference with the Wood Elves showing up, etc.

As for the map orientations: standardization of North as "up" on maps is a fairly modern convention. Previously - I think there was no real convention.

In Middle Earth, there are some interesting linguistic cues for cardinal directions. As I recall - in Adunaic - North is derived from "left" and South from "right" - as though one is facing East. It's the opposite in Sindarin - where North is derived from "right" ("For" as in Fornost) and South is derived from "left" ("Har" - as in Harad, Haradrim, etc) - as though one is facing West.

This is significant, because it was the nature of most Men (other than the Faithful - who used Sindarin for the naming examples above) to look East, to the unconquered lands. It was the nature of the Elves and the Faithful to look West, to the Valar and their land of Aman.

[Alcuin]

I had what began as a bad summer when was a kid: I couldn’t go out and play, so I read The Hobbit and watched the Watergate hearings. In the end, that summer was great; and in the fall, I read the Lord of the Rings the first time. (Yeah, I thought the Balrog had wings.)

The map of Wilderland oriented the Long Lake north-south for me. When I realized that Thrór’s map had east at the top and north on the left, I simply turned the book 90° to the right to re-orient my perspective of the map.

As for Lake-town east or west bank, I guess I always assumed it was off the bank nearest Mirkwood: it seemed to me that it was closer to the Forest River, and later, as Thorin & Co moved north, the forest was on the near side. “East bank” and “west bank” never occurred to me until I read this thread (and it’s been decades since that lonely summer began). It was always “near [to the forest] side” / “far side” of the lake.

Originally Posted by Valandil

As for the map orientations: standardization of North as "up" on maps is a fairly modern convention. Previously - I think there was no real convention.

Medieval maps often had east at the top. I don’t immediately recall whether Roman itineraries (predecessors of modern maps) had east at top or not: I think they had north. But medieval mapmakers typically placed east at top, toward the rising sun: a bit of Christian mysticism. I suspect that is why Tolkien did, too: he was accustomed to it.

Originally Posted by Valandil

In Middle Earth, there are some interesting linguistic cues for cardinal directions. As I recall - in Adunaic - North is derived from "left" and South from "right" - as though one is facing East. It's the opposite in Sindarin - where North is derived from "right" ("For" as in Fornost) and South is derived from "left" ("Har" - as in Harad, Haradrim, etc) - as though one is facing West.

This is significant, because it was the nature of most Men (other than the Faithful - who used Sindarin for the naming examples above) to look East, to the unconquered lands. It was the nature of the Elves and the Faithful to look West, to the Valar and their land of Aman.

That’s interesting. I wonder if the maps in Elrond’s house that Aragorn, Gandalf, and Frodo consulted had west at top, then? Would the Eldar orient their maps “upside-down” from mannish mapmakers? Do you recall where you found that little gem?

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

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That’s interesting. I wonder if the maps in Elrond’s house that Aragorn, Gandalf, and Frodo consulted had west at top, then? Would the Eldar orient their maps “upside-down” from mannish mapmakers? Do you recall where you found that little gem?

No - and I just looked in what I thought the most likely spots. Hope I didn't make it up. But I'll look some more.

[Alcuin]

You are correct, Valandil.

It’s in Return of the King, “Appendix E”, “II Writing”, “(i) The Fëanorian Letters”, in the last paragraph at the end of the long “Note” just before “(ii) The Cirth”.

The [Quenya] names of the letters most widely known and used were … númen, hyarmen, rómen, formen = west, south, east, north … These letters commonly indicated the points W, S, E, N even in languages that used quite different terms. They were, in the West-lands, named in this order, beginning with and facing west; hyarmen and formen indeed meant left-hand region and right-hand region (the opposite to the arrangement in many Mannish languages).

Which means that Elves and Dúnedain proceeded counter-clockwise in their recitation.

[Valandil]

Thanks for finding that! Might have been a long time before I looked there - and very glad to know I wasn't just imagining that I had read it!