Discussion Thread number 2 Of Nazgûl-Kings-Friends-Rings Campaign

[Udukhaturz]

“So, perhaps, the worse one can do to a nazgul while the Rings existed, is to turn him into a powerless, bodiless spirit, wandering in ME for all eternity.� - Gordis

I agree with you there.

Killing Nazgûl is not easy. If they are stabbed with a blade of Westernsee, their impotent spirits retreat back to Sauron. In fact, they appear to be still living AFTER THE RING IS DESTROYED, a thing that is overlooked often times. For those of you who watched the film, you might have wondered why the Eight Nazgûl are still flying about after the Ring is destroyed, and only perished in the flames.

Gollum has just gone over the brink with the One Ring, and Barad-dûr is falling. It appears that the Nazgûl still live, bodies and all, even though the Ring has been destroyed. They only perish in the fires of Mount Doom as they fly towards it. I can get no other interpretation of it, and this conclusion is supported by Tolkien’s earlier outlines.

"Towers fell and mountains slid; walls crumbled and melted, crashing down; vast spires of smoke and spouting steams went billowing up, up, until they toppled like an overwhelming wave, and its wild crest curled and came foaming down upon the land. And then at last over the miles between there came a rumble, rising to a deafening crash and roar; the earth shook, and the plain heaved and cracked, and Orodruin reeled. Fire belched from its riven summit. The skies burst into thunder seared with lightning. Down like lashing whips fell a torrent of black rain. And into the heart of the storm, with a cry that pierced all other sounds, tearing the clouds asunder, the Nazgûl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled, withered, and went out."
-Mount Doom, Return of the King, p. 224

Here are excerpts from some of Tolkien’s earlier outlines that seems to verify this “life after the Ring� premise. This is Version I, written sometime around 1939-1941.

“Perhaps better would be to make Gollum repent in a way. He is utterly wretched, and commits suicide. Gollum has it, he cried. No one else shall have it. I will destroy you all. He leaps into crack. Fire goes mad. Frodo is like to be destroyed.
“Nazgûl shape at the door. Frodo is caught in the fire-chamber and cannot get out!
“Here we all end together, said the Ring Wraith.
“Frodo is too weary and lifeless to say nay.
“You first, said a voice, and Sam (with Sting?) stabs the Black Rider from behind.
“Frodo and Sam escape and flee down mountain-side. But they could not escape the running molten lava. They see Eagles driving the Nazgûl. Eagles rescue them.�
-The Story of Sam and Frodo in Mordor, Version I, Sauron Defeated, p. 5

Here is Version II, which is more complicated than Version I, but shows the Witch-king as still around after the Ring goes into the fire.

"Frodo puts on Ring! A great cry rings out. A great shadow swoops down from Baraddur, like a bird. The Wizard King is coming. Frodo feels him - the one who stabbed him under Weathertop. He is wearing Ring and has been seen. He struggles to take Ring off and cannot. The Nazgûl draws near as swift as storm. Frodo's one idea is to escape it, and without thinking of his errand he now flies into the Chamber of Fire. A great fissure goes across it from left to right. Fire boils in it. All goes dark to Frodo and he falls on his knees. At that moment Gollum arrives panting and grabs at the Ring. That rouses Frodo, and they fight on the brink of the chasm. Gollum breaks Frodo's finger and gets Ring. Frodo falls in swoon. But Sam who has now arrived rushes in suddenly and pushes Gollum over the brink. Gollum and Ring go into the Fire together. The Mountain boils and erupts. Barad-dur falls. A great dust and a dark shadow floats away on NE from the rising SW wind. Frodo suddenly thinks he can hear and smell Sea. A dreadful shuddering cry is borne away and until it dies far off all men and things stand still.
“Frodo turns and sees door blocked by Wizard King. The mountain begins to erupt and crumble. Here we will perish together, said the Wizard King. But Frodo draws Sting. He no longer has any fear whatsoever. He is master of the Black Riders. He commands the Black Rider to follow the Ring his master and drives it into the fire.�
- The Story of Sam and Frodo in Mordor, Version II, Sauron Defeated, p. 6-7

This explains “life after the Ring� perhaps better than I can.

"When Aragorn led his army to the Black Gate the Nazgûl were part of the host that attacked them there, but they were commanded by Sauron to fly to Mount Doom when he perceived what was about to happen. Yet despite their great speed they were too late, and perished in the inferno caused by their master's destruction." - The Lord of the Rings Weapons and Warfare by Chris Smith, p. 167

I know this is not an absolute answer, but Nazgûl are virtually indestructible.

[Udukhaturz]

Gordis,

I was going on this version for Udu’s alleged background:

“The Lord of Dol Amroth had this title. It was given to his ancestors by Elendil, with whom they had kinship. They were a family of the Faithful who had sailed from Númenor before the Downfall and had settled in the land of Belfalas, between the mouths of Ringló and Gilrain, with a stronghold upon the high promontory of Dol Amroth (named after the last King of Lórien). [Author's note.]�

But since there is a difference in texts, I could change it easily enough.

“I think, Udu, your story has another problem. The Last Alliance War was 50 years ago, and you "look middle aged". So you may be asked where exactly were you during the War? You couldn't have stayed in Belfalas through it! You also risk to meet ‘old war comrades from Isildur's army’ at the reception.�

His story - He is going to say that he went to the East as a young man, traveling extensively to study, and became ill of some wasting malady, unknown in the West (he can make up anything here on the spot). He was long in recovering. When he finally had been restored to good health, the news finally reached him about the war, it took him a while to travel back, and alas, the war was over when he got there. That way, he does not have to worry about meeting any old veterans. He might even tell them about his terrible illness, then feign getting drunk to “forget the horrors of it all.�

His whole story, of course, is a fabrication. Maybe I will change the location he alleges to Linhir.

[Lotesse]

Thank you so very much for that explanation, with all the wonderful quotes! That was so interesting. Thanx!

[Udukhaturz]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Thank you so very much for that explanation, with all the wonderful quotes! That was so interesting. Thanx!

Lotesse,

I hope it would be helpful to all. Just a very, very difficult question to answer. I enjoyed some of Tolkien's earlier versions. That statement from the Witch-king to Frodo was so good.

"Here we all end together, said the Ring Wraith."

Then this one from Sam for the punch line.

"You first, said a voice, and Sam (with Sting?) stabs the Black Rider from behind."

Can't beat that.

[The last sane person]

HURRAH UDU!! I just about to post the exerpt of the nazgul living after the ring is destroyed! YAY! I think that would be so cool, to write about the nazgul after the final fall, if they survived the lava....Man, that was such afast end statement, he didnt know what to do with 8 left over wraiths so he said...."...And then they died in the flame of Udun...." Pah!

[The last sane person]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Yes, she IS!
*bops shah on the head*
(maidens aren't dead, you know! they're just maidens )


rpg-RÃ*an subscribes to the elven thoughts about sexuality as explained by JRRT in Laws and Customs Among the Eldar, in HoME 10

*hides her elven pasties*

NO NOOKIE AT ALL!??!?!!?!! Alas for Rian.....

Thank god Marty and Ray are mortal, they'd never make it other wise!

[Rían]

rpg-RÃ*an believes that while nookie with one's spouse is the best of all possibilities, no nookie is better than nookie with a non-spouse

("nookie"?! LOL!)


Eärniel - would you please pick up nookie-less rpg-RÃ*an and take her to the reception to get her mind off her nookie-less state?

[The last sane person]

Rofl lmao!! Yes, I say nookie. I think Rian has fallen out of a few too many trees....

Anyways, last night (sort of) in hawaii, i wanna spend it with my bro, no writing for me until tommorow.

[Lotesse]

I like your new avvie, Shah! Yeah, if I were you, I'd be enjoying the last night in Hawaii. Me, I'm calling it a night early, I think. I'm going with my boyfriend to take some stuff to our new house right now, and then pretty soon I'm gonna hit the hay. 'night, all!

[Rían]

Goodnight everyone!

Be sure you get your internet connection up in the house soon, Lotesse!

Say hi to your brother from your Moot friends, Shah! And I love your avvy! I think everyone should have one - it makes it so much easier to find posts. I gotta find one for Lief.

I'm hoping rpg-Earniel will have taken rpg-Rian to the reception when I wake up, if that's ok with you, Earniel

[Udukhaturz]

Originally Posted by The last sane person

HURRAH UDU!! I just about to post the exerpt of the nazgul living after the ring is destroyed! YAY! I think that would be so cool, to write about the nazgul after the final fall, if they survived the lava....Man, that was such afast end statement, he didnt know what to do with 8 left over wraiths so he said...."...And then they died in the flame of Udun...." Pah!

Shah, that would be really interesting - the Nazgûl survive. What would be the strengths remaining to them? What would they do? Would they gradually fade, die of old age, remain the same, turn visible, what? What if each possessed his own Ring (something they did not have in LOTR)? The possibilities are endless, and I do not know if there are any right or wrong answers. This, of course, would have to be an Alternative Universe RPG/story (AU), but I enjoy them because they provide the opportunity to explore possibilities.

No, Tolkien did not know what to do with 8 left over wraiths, but it is obvious that it was not automatic death when the One Ring perished. Glad you know about that quote, too, Shah.

[Valandil]

Whew - let's see if I can remember to cover all the ground I wanted to:

First of all - Lotesse - yes, those who spoke up for me were pretty much on the mark. I read in places and skimmed in places. I had seen where some diamonds were being shared around, for instance - but must've skimmed or skipped over the actual burglary - but figured that they probably WERE Valandil's, since you had written about doing that (and Gordis - no, I don't think Valandil would count his jewels every night like a dragon would, but he might indeed 'feel' that someone had been there or that something wasn't right - and might be even MORE likely to recognize one of his own if he later spotted it one someone's person... like at a reception or something! ). Anyway - a post number would have been helpful (EDIT: found it - funny, I had noticed before the thing about the trophy, but not caught where she was and had scanned over the gems part - from this last scan, I think I've read about 80% of the stuff posted the first few days of October), for reference in working up my own next post. As for your writing - I think your's and everyone else's here is just great! But I feel a little overwhelmed when I log on after 12-18 hours away and find sometimes 20-40 posts, many of them long - and knowing I only have a few minutes sometimes to look them over (but don't stop posting over that folks - it's just me confronting my own limitations). And I admit - I should be more free in sharing compliments, etc. So I'm sorry if you or anyone else has taken that the wrong way.

Gordis - thanks, I'll check out the map again. As for the 'Dol Amroth' quote - the part I remembered was right there, where it says that it did not have that name until after Amroth was drowned (presumably) in 1981, (Third Age). So - I was just saying that nobody before then would use the term (and thanks for making the change Udu - and satisfying picky ole me! ).

Rian - I think it would be cool if Rian showed up at the reception all decked out in her Elven splendor & finery and stole the show! Then, if anyone even DID recognize her (and they may not... think of how different people can look after a 'make-over' - and even Cinderella's / Sindariel's step-sisters didn't recognize her at the Ball! ) they might be afraid to say anything - and wonder just what kind of Elven Princess they had seen working in the kitchen... or who exactly she was...

Shah - it was only when I did the game post that I settled on Ray and Marty's precise noble standing. My use of the word 'prince' though, is perhaps more of a 'noble' than 'royal' title - as I understand it from Tolkien's usage (and I could be wrong). My operative theory is that there were a handful of these princes both in Arnor and Gondor, not necessarily, but possibly related to the family of Elendil, whose title came from ruling a 'principality' - just as a duke rules a duchy, an earl his earldom, a baron his barony, etc. (I took that theory from an article by Michael Martinez where he theorizes that each Ship Captain (at least the 6 besides Elendil, Isildur and Anarion) in the flight from Numenor was established as a 'prince' of some sort - that in the south they ruled the provinces of Calenardhon, Lebennin and Belfalas, perhaps - and that in the north they possibly laid the groundwork for what became Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhudaur when the kingdom eventually divided) I thought it could be interesting to have them at a couple different levels - yet among a limited nobility, they all travel in the same circles - and didn't mind placing one of them very highly in that structure - it seems very reasonable for a close friend of a young king. I plan on more musings by Valandil later... he will probably figure that Marty is pretty well set, but that he might make better use of Ray by eventually bringing him to court and making him a royal official of some kind, and allowing another family member to take the thranedom.

As for their housing situation, you're free to do as you want, I just wanted to offer another option (esp since they wandered into his room one night). It wouldn't seem unusual to me that a king might bring some friends along and keep them close by himself for an extended stay away from home. Give him someone else to talk with besides his advisors. They would have their own separate quarters, of course.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I think, Udu, your story has another problem. The Last Alliance War was 50 years ago, and you "look middle aged". So you may be asked where exactly were you during the War? You couldn't have stayed in Belfalas through it! You also risk to meet "old war comrades from Isildur's army" at the reception.

Maybe something for Khamûl to question him about infront of people at the Reception.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

TD, I was making my post above yours with Khamul NOT being home at all - perhaps you could alter it a little, wherein Khamul comes BACK home to pick up something he forgot, perhaps, then pops in on Lil & Pen while he's there for that scene you wrote, then leaves again? Just an idea, because the scene I wrote before you makes no sense if Khamul was home the whole time.

Did your post make any emntion of Khamûl. As far as I can see it could fit in quite easily, but I'll edit if you do think it nessecary. I may be wrong but I'll check your post later and do required editing if needed.

[Udukhaturz]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Maybe something for Khamûl to question him about in front of people at the Reception.

TD, my thinking is that if Udu had a perfect, very plausible explanation that would lock his story up tight, it would not provide the opportunity for any conflict with others. Conflict is what, I think, adds flavor to an RPG. So Udu's story has certain inconsistencies built into it. This would give Khamûl bait.

Khamûl is by rights Second after the Captain. I would think that he would be able to command the allegiance of all the others. Now here is something I do not know and have wondered. There are two theories on the power of the Rings.

1. One states that Angmar is the most powerful, then Khamûl, then on down the line, with Number 9 being the least in power. So, Number 6, say, could command Numbers 7 to 9, but Number 6 would be lesser in power and under the command of Number 5.
2. The other theory is that Angmar and Khamûl have the two most powerful Rings, with Khamûl's being less than Angmar, of course. The other Seven Rings are equal in power.

Now to write a story or do an RPG, there must be an agreement. Which of the above two ideas will prevail? I am willing to accept either one for this RPG. I just want to know which we are using. I have not seen this anywhere in any of the threads or the info section. If I missed it, I am sorry.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Eärniel - would you please pick up nookie-less rpg-RÃ*an and take her to the reception to get her mind off her nookie-less state?

Sorry, last night troubles messed up my creativity. But I just posted their meeting, feel free to post some conversation and let Eärniel invite you to go with her. She'll probably want some familiar company on such an all-human event.

Valandil surely will not know what hit him. Instead of one Elf, he'll see two! He'll forget all about Eärniel quickly if he catches sight of RÃ*an, I wager. (Fickle men ) And then there is fair Aiwendis with her not-so-fair potions to be reckoned with. Poor king!

Lotesse, will we still be able to say "No frogs were harmed during the writing of this RPG." after your prank with the frog?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Udu, I'd say theory number two was the best out of those two, but it's up to the rest since it doesn't directly affect me.

[Gordis]

A VERY interesting question Udu!

I agree that the Nazgul were NOT destroyed in the same instant, when the ONE Ring melted. Udu’s quotes are quite convincing.

But why?

I think, because the Nine Nazgul were NOT DIRECTLY DEPENDENT on the ONE. Sauron was. He made his shape again, wielding the One, after his body perished in the fall of Numenor. It took about 100 years. He had great difficulties re-shaping himself in the Third age, because he could not WIELD the One. He was able to re-flesh himself in about 1500-2000 years, because the One still existed somewhere. I think, he used the remaining Dwarven rings for that, which he gradually collected sitting in Dol-Guldur.

Now, the Nazgul were dependant on the NINE rings (not the One) in much the same way. I think, IF Sauron would just go to Orodruin and throw one of the 9 rings into the Fire, the corresponding nazgul would be killed on the spot, his body falling to nothing, clothes left behind, and the spirit going to Mandos.

I think, the Nazgul existed as long as their NAZGUL RINGS existed and HAD POWER. The last part is very important. The Nine, the Seven and the Three all depended on the One. When the One was destroyed, what happened to the other Rings? Sauron had the remaining 7, and all the 9 in his physical possession at the moment of the Fall of Barad Dur. The One was melted, but the 7 and 9 were not! Most likely they were simply BURIED under the ruins of Barad Dur.
We know what happened with the Three. They lost their power GRADUALLY after the destruction of the One. Lorien, made with the power of Nenya, has not disappeared in a blast, same with Rivendell. Both gradually WANED. Bilbo, though he was now very old for a hobbit, didn’t die immediately, but started to show his age considerably, and was waning fast.
So if we consider that with the destruction of the Ruling Ring, the power of the nine gradually waned, than the nazgul were doomed all the same. Sooner or later, the Nine Rings would loose their power and that’s the nazgul end.
That’s why, perhaps, the Witch-King sounded so suicidal: “Here we will perish together�, instead of just throwing the little hobbit into the chasm and saving his own “eternal� life.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Lotesse, will we still be able to say "No frogs were harmed during the writing of this RPG." after your prank with the frog?

lol! Well, Lomi DOES have to eat, you know, being an owl & all. Owls eat frogs!

Valandil, Thank you very much for getting back to me like that. What with you & Butterbeer and everyone getting overwhelmed, it makes me think I should slow down the writing, so you all can catch up.
Gordis & Udu, thanx so much for all the Ring/ring education, I really needed it, and REALLY appreciate it!!

TD, the thing is, there is no way that Viv, Penny and Lomi would have been able to relax and feel O.K. and be comfortable, laughing, and getting presents etcetera, if Khamul were in the house. If Khamul were in the house, it would have been like a hospital intensive care unit, or a funeral home or something. Think about it.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

What about if I edited it so Penny sounded as if he was surprised that Khamûl was there. Something like. "I thought left ages ago." Would that be ok?

[Lotesse]

No because they all would have sensed his presence in the house, anyway. It wouldn't have been a surprise to them. Can he not just have gotten back to Orrodel afterbeing out for a while, on a walk or doing something in town? And have forgotten something he needed, like a dagger or something, and thought 'well, I want to check up on the others anyway, so I might as well go back & get it and while I'm there, check on Lil & Pen?' Something like that.