Swords in the Troll's Cave

[Athelwinde]

In the chapter called "Roast Mutton", the Dwarves and Bilbo and Gandalf go to the trolls cave and find some very ancient and interesting swords.

My question for discussion is
1. How did the trolls, of all people, get a hold of these swords from Gondolin, especially since the land of Beleriand was sunk?

[azalea]

Booty.
Maybe they were there and made off with it.
Or maybe they stole it from orcs who had gotten it from the battle.
(I don't really know, I'm just guessing )

My question to add to this discussion is: Isn't it interesting that Gandalf has to have Elrond tell him more about the swords? I know Elrond has been around ME longer, but Gandalf can read Elvish, right? And certainly he'd know his history! (Aside from the fact that the Hobbit stuff can't always fit exactly into later stuff, it's just fun to wonder about.)

[Spock]

Even a wizard can't be expected to know everything about everything. History of armament isn't necessary to keeping watch over the Shire, etc. As Elrond was who he was, he would have that knowledge to "fill in the gaps" of Gandalf's knowledge.
As for possession of the swords, Orcs dwelt underground alot and pillaged where and when they could. Whether as a result of battle or luck, they could have come across these swords and then the Trolls just took them when they stompped the Orcs into oblivion.

[Wayfarer]

Let's see if we can form a hypothetical history:

Gondolin was destroyed by an army that was mainly orcs, although the Balrog Wing Corps seems to have put in an appearance. If what happened in Nargothrond is any indication, then a lot of stuff would have just been left there. I can't imagine any Orcs being willing to steal a pair of swords the mere sight of which, three ages later, sends them into a panic. It's more likely that it was stolen by men or dwarves, or perhaps taken by elves which returned after the enemy had withdrawn. From there, it probably made its way through numerous hands across middle earth until it ended up with Bert, Tom, and Bill.

It's quite possible that whoever was carrying them had been heading towards rivendell when they were *ahem* apphrehended.

[durin's bane]

I agree with Wayfarer. The Orcs stole the swords from the battle, but upon realizing they were Elvish swords, they hid or buried them. Then some Elves came to recover them or some Dwarves looking for treasure found them, but later on were ambushed by the trolls and the swords stolen and the previous holders dead.

[Spock]

....ahem.....WMD......I can't believe I said that.

[azalea]

You're right, I like that version of their history.

[Athelwinde]

I may (or may not) have an answer to the question asked by azalea.

Elrond had lived on ME longer, and before Gandalf ever came to ME. Gandalf came in the 1000th year of the Third Age (at least, thats when he's first mentioned) and therefore didn't know as much as one who's fathers and relatives had actually fought in the First Age.

[Bombadillo]

Well, I don't know about Azalea's question. It probably would be nice to wonder about but I'm too tired. So I'll just say the story changed a bit in LotR.

To Athelwinde:
I always thought that the trolls simply killed everybody who used to own those artifacts and ate them, keeping the weapons and whatnot as treasures, which seemes to be a trait in such vile beings as trolls and dragons and Gollum.
But that's just assuming that the average lifespan of a troll is longer than an ents'.

[nazgul prince]

How does everyone picture them? I think both glamdring and orcrist were gold and silver hilted with many gems.There scabbards ivory with silver stars and gold flowers traced on them.There blades mirror polised with the runes going up the blade like sting in the movie.And they were light as a feather that explains Thorin being able to weild so easily even if they were long swords.I picture sting pretty much the way it is in the movie exept shorter with no runes on the blade.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Although rarely mentioned (I recall only "the troll guard of Gothmog {Lord of Balrogs})in in the Silmarillion for some reason, trolls were bred in the First age and to have been used by morgoth in his wars. This is also mention in LoTR (appendix) and HoME. Gothmog himself was at(and killed) the attack on Golndolin, so presumably his troll guard were tere, as well as other troll units.

[Findegil]

When I recall rightly from my memory, Gandalf and Elrond wonder about the same question: How came the Trolls to posses these swords? And one of the two said that Gondolin was destroied by Orks and Dragons.
In no account of the attack on Gondolin were Trolls ever mentioned. Balrogs and especialy Gothmog fighted in that battle. But the attack on Gondolin was very special. The advance of the attackers into the plain of Gondolin was superfast and the Balrogs were needed to guide a kind of Dragons/Monsters "that were like ropes of molten metal".
Since we have Elrond and Gandalf wondering about the Trolls have a part of the booty of that plundering I would denie that any Troll was seen in that battle. And as a reason for that I think that they could not run fast enough over the encircling Hills and that Gothmog had no use for his rather lumpish Trollguard when he guided theses "creators of pure flame".

Respectfully
Findegil

[Wayfarer]

Ach!

No! Bad! That version of the mythology was thrown out for good reasons, and it doesn't fit anywhere in the final continuium. Robo-dragons carrying orcs in their stomachs and snakes made out of fire do not exist in middle earth. Besides which, that draft was written back when balrogs were still a cavalry corps.

[Findegil]

Wayfarer, The Fall of Gondolin was published during Tolkiens life time! It is the only version we have of that battle. All what we later get are very short summaries and even the newest of that is totally outdated. So if you like to have any details you have to take them out of that version.

Now to some pionts in your answer:
"the final continuium" - Would you please explain what you mean by that?

"Robo-dragons carrying orcs in their stomachs" - Where is it denied that these "serpents of iron" fited in the later mhytology? It is explecit noted that they were new devised for that battle and did never agian showe up until the final battle. Beside that the orks used occasonily siege engines and builded them as well and were descriebed in the Hobbit as using rather machines than thier hands for any work. So why not for transport?

"snakes made out of fire do not exist in middle earth" - Please, read the describtion of the Dagor Bargollach! The only enhancment that the "serpents of pure fire" in The Fall of Gondolin had in comparison to the streams of fire in the Bargollach was that they were able to climb over the Echoriad, and may be they were better guidable. But for what else did Morgoth use his sourcerers when not for the development of the means of his war.

"Besides which, that draft was written back when balrogs were still a cavalry corps." On this point we agree. And it is clear that you can't take The Fall of Gondolin one to one. But to say that it didn't contribute anything is clearly wrong.

It is clear that you can restrict your view on the matters of Middle-Earth so that The Fall of Gondolin is not included (but since it was acctually published, it is not so easy as it seems to rule it out), but than you should stop answering any questions about it, since what you will know about it is only that there was a city named Gondolin and that it was destroyed by Dragons and Orks.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Wayfarer, The Fall of Gondolin was published during Tolkiens life time! It is the only version we have of that battle. All what we later get are very short summaries and even the newest of that is totally outdated. So if you like to have any details you have to take them out of that version.

(...)

It is clear that you can restrict your view on the matters of Middle-Earth so that The Fall of Gondolin is not included (but since it was acctually published, it is not so easy as it seems to rule it out), but than you should stop answering any questions about it, since what you will know about it is only that there was a city named Gondolin and that it was destroyed by Dragons and Orks.

Hmm, I don't think anyone in the thread questioned this... way back when

But I don't recall that any version of The Fall of Gondolin was published in Tolkien's lifetime...

... in the spring of 1920 JRRT read a version of the tale to an Essay Club ( Exeter college), but for myself I don't consider that equivalent to publication -- not that Findegil does necessarily, but I can't find any reference to this version, or any other, being published while Tolkien was alive.

Anyone?

[john21wall]

Yes. The answer to this question was hotly debated by fans for nearly two decades, but when the Peoples of Middle-earth was published in 1996 it became possible to give a definitive answer. In The Silmarillion, Glorfindel is slain fighting a Balrog during the Fall of Gondolin. When writing The Lord of the Rings Tolkien simply reused the name, and the characteristics, of the earlier character from the as-yet-unpublished narrative.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by john21wall

Yes. The answer to this question was hotly debated by fans for nearly two decades, but when the Peoples of Middle-earth was published in 1996 it became possible to give a definitive answer. In The Silmarillion, Glorfindel is slain fighting a Balrog during the Fall of Gondolin. When writing The Lord of the Rings Tolkien simply reused the name, and the characteristics, of the earlier character from the as-yet-unpublished narrative.

Thinking about this a little more - I think JRRT boxed himself in with the notion that the Elves never re-used a name. That each one had a unique name unto themselves. Seems unrealistic, since the various groups of Elves were always out of contact with one another for great lengths of times. Two different Elves named Glorfindel? So what? Makes sense that a lot of Elves would name their new son after a famous hero slain in the Fall of Gondolin.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Galin

Hmm, I don't think anyone in the thread questioned this... way back when
:
:
:

Uncharacteristic of us - especially at that time, when we had a lot of very astute and informed Tolkien fans regularly on the board and happy to speak (write) their minds.

Welcome to Entmoot - john21wall!

[Artanis]

If we take into account the level of detail of the description of the battle and of Morgoth's creatures in the FoG, I think it is very unlikely that there were any trolls there at all since they're not anywhere mentioned.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Artanis
If we take into account the level of detail of the description of the battle and of Morgoth's creatures in the FoG, I think it is very unlikely that there were any trolls there at all since they're not anywhere mentioned.

Trolls are not mentioned anywhere in the BolT except on reference in a late note note to the Hisrory of eril or Aelfwine. They do not appear in the Appendix (ofnames )to BolT 1 where the other races are named. It appear they were not part of BolT at all utill some late thoughts on rewriting of it. Yet they are part of Morgoths armies in the Published Canon. Thus their absence from a Chapter (all the chapters) of BoLT is no evidence for where they would be in the Arda of the Silmarillion.