Star Wars Philosophy

[Lief Erikson]

This is a thread for discussion of any aspects of Star Wars philosophy.

Now, I will respond to couple points Rohirrim TR was making in the Theology thread in General Messages.

When Obi-Wan said, "Only the Sith deal in absolutes,"

1) When Obi-Wan said this, he was responding to Anakin's "you're either with me or against me." He was pretty much saying, "there's always an exception to a rule," or, "there's a lot of gray area," objecting to fanaticism that draws up barriers without attempting to see the other side. He wasn't saying "there's no absolute good," or, "there's no absolute truth." Those weren't what he was talking about at all. In context, he was referring to refusal to see the other side in an argument.

2) Even if he were talking about any form of absolute, this would be somewhat limited to his own world. The Force may not be wholly the same as a perfect, flawless Christian-Judeo God. Perhaps in the Star Wars universe, there aren't any absolutes? I don't know . . . though I don't care for the idea at all.

[rohirrim TR]

1) thats typical obi-wan, he's always saying things like "it was true from a certain point of view", and kinda waffles sometimes, but "actions speak louder than words" so characteristically Jedi behave as though they believe in absolutes of good and evil, and honor and chivalry, (they are knights after all). where as the sith behave as if good and evil were the same remeber palps "from another(the sith) point of view the jedi are evil" using obi-wans own words against him causing anakins fall. in the whole absolute debate the jedi are a bit muddlled i.e. saying one thing, behaving differently, these inconsistencies may have led to anakin's fall.

2)obviously the force isn't God, think about it: pure energy that can only be accessed by some, very dissimilar to my view of God. it does bring up the question of where do the jedi get their values? I don't see how the force would really contribute to that.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by rohirrim TR

1) thats typical obi-wan, he's always saying things like "it was true from a certain point of view", and kinda waffles sometimes, but "actions speak louder than words" so characteristically Jedi behave as though they believe in absolutes of good and evil, and honor and chivalry, (they are knights after all). where as the sith behave as if good and evil were the same remeber palps "from another(the sith) point of view the jedi are evil" using obi-wans own words against him causing anakins fall. in the whole absolute debate the jedi are a bit muddlled i.e. saying one thing, behaving differently, these inconsistencies may have led to anakin's fall.

2)obviously the force isn't God, think about it: pure energy that can only be accessed by some, very dissimilar to my view of God. it does bring up the question of where do the jedi get their values? I don't see how the force would really contribute to that.

Okay, well, there are a small handful of points about the Force which tend to indicate it's more than an energy field. It has a "will" for example, according to Qui-Gon-Jin. It can "speak" to people. Plus, the Force never is referred to as having a "light" side. People refer to a dark side, or just "the Force". This implies that the natural state of the Force is good, and that the darkness is unnatural to the Force. Thus, by eliminating Dark Side users, Anakin would really be restoring balance to the Force. Any Dark Side throws the Force out of balance, because the Dark Side is unnatural and what is bright and good is natural.

So this is kind of a "godly" perspective. An ultimate good with what could be termed "fallen angels" throwing things out of balance.

[rohirrim TR]

whoa time warp, it says you posted that last post yesterday, freaky.

well those are some good points, and it would provide an answer to why the jedi believe in knightly standards.

as to if there are absolutes in the SW universe it seems an obvious yes to me, you can't really have a battle between good and evil without having some semblance of absolutes, at the very least you could say that "freedom good, tyranny bad" could be the absolute that comes through most strongly, although there are others there as well.

[King of The Istari]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Plus, the Force never is referred to as having a "light" side. People refer to a dark side, or just "the Force". This implies that the natural state of the Force is good, and that the darkness is unnatural to the Force. Thus, by eliminating Dark Side users, Anakin would really be restoring balance to the Force. Any Dark Side throws the Force out of balance, because the Dark Side is unnatural and what is bright and good is natural.

So this is kind of a "godly" perspective. An ultimate good with what could be termed "fallen angels" throwing things out of balance.

I always considered the force as neutral it is the wielder that makes it light or dark. but because in the begining there was only Jedi, the sith developed from jedi that had fallen from grace, anakin is bringing the force back into its original state

[inked]

Do you guys know how to spot Roman Catholics and Anglicans at a Star Wars flick?

It's easy.

Whenever anyone says, "The force be with you,"

they are the folks who say,
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
"And also with you!"

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by King of The Istari

I always considered the force as neutral it is the wielder that makes it light or dark.

Well, that ignores a few important bits of evidence from the movies, which I've already brought up. First of all, the Force has a will (Qui-Gon-Jinn went into discussing this with Anakin in "The Phantom Menace"). It expresses its will in a voice people can hear and follow. Thus it is personal and intelligent, rather than merely energy. This alone makes it something other than neutral.

Then, we can also know that eliminating the Dark Side users brings the Force back into balance (According to Mace Windu in Episode 3). This assumes that good is the norm for the Force, something that also implied in the fact that the "light side" of the Force is never mentioned. It is assumed that the Force is naturally light, and any darkness is an aberration and an imbalance.

Originally Posted by BB

but because in the begining there was only Jedi, the sith developed from jedi that had fallen from grace, anakin is bringing the force back into its original state

Another important point is that though in the movies, the idea that the Force can be brought into balance by destroying the Dark Side users is mentioned, the idea that the Force can be brought into balance by destroying the Jedi is never mentioned by anyone. This absence of anyone expounding the theory in the films implies that it wasn't the plan George Lucas had in mind. Otherwise one would think he would bring up the real meaning of the prophecy, as well as the eroneous (which doesn't seem that eroneous an interpretation, in view of Episode 6's events).

So we have the Force being thrown out of balance by evil, which means the normal state of the Force is good, and we also have it personal, intelligent and eager to communicate. This begins to look very much like a pure, holy, personal and intelligent deity. The Dark Side of the Force is abuse of something good, rather than a natural state of things. I think . This is the only conclusion I can draw that makes sense, in view of the evidence, at this time.

[tolkienfan]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Then, we can also know that eliminating the Dark Side users brings the Force back into balance (According to Mace Windu in Episode 6).

Episode 6??? sorry, I'm a little confused.

[hectorberlioz]

Wookipedia is awesome! :-D

And speaking of different views on the force, many authors have treated it very differently. In Greg Bear's "Rogue Planet," we get the constant injunction that the Force is "not a nursemaid." I always remember that somehow whenever I try to use the Force .

[Lefty Scaevola]

Regarding Dark Side/"Light Side"/balance in the force, consider a quote of ERU, in my signature.

"And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me,"

Verily, the Dark side is an integral part of the force, which can never be banished, only managed. The recurring blindness of the the "light Side" Jedi to machinations on the dark side, when any 11 year old SCi Fi or even a wargaming fan could do an Admiral Ackbar and see the obvious traps and plots, is because they try to obliterate and banish the Dark Side, and are oblivious to it, rather than carefully watching it both within and without themselves.