LoTR discussion project: Book III, Chapters 8 and 9:

Forkbeard · 05-14-2005, 01:15 PM

The Road to Isengard

I love this chapter. It opens with victory, pulled from the very jaws of defeat and death by means unlooked for. And of course, as will happen again later, and the symbolism is rife, it occurs at dawn with the coming of the White Rider, a new forest, and Erkenbrand of Westfold who relieve the defenders of the Hornburg. I love the name "hornburg": in Germanic languages "horn" in addition to meaning the thing sticking out of certain beasties' heads, means a projection, a pinnacle, a peak and "burg" which many will recognize originally indicated a fort or fortress. Hornburg=hill fort, but sounds so much cooler! And over the Dike, the extending wall protecting the fort from being surrounded, come Eomer and Gimli and Gamling the Old, something of a joke too. Gamling comes from gamol, old, hoary, so literally in that paragraph Tolkien calls him The Old One the Old. As an aside, note also the emphasis on AGE in Tolkien: Bombadill and Fangorn as the oldest of living things, Gandalf and the other Istari appearing as aged men who grew older slowly, but still are aged, the ancient elves (where do we see a young elf? An elf child?). Those we meet and get to know are very old: Arwen at a mere 2700, Galadriel around since the First Age as was Elrond; even Legolas isn't a young pup. Frodo is 50, and while young for a hobbit yet, is equivalent to a man in his 30s for us. And so on. I don't know that anyone has really explored this before, but maybe they have and the assembled here can fill me in.

Moving off the first page....this chapter is somewhat frustrating the first time through. At least I remember being frustrated. Gandalf knows or at least suspects much. But he reveals NOTHING to Theoden or to us. We know what Gandalf knows: the trees and the Ents, what's happened at Isengard, and so on. But Gandalf tells nothing of this to Theoden and Aragorn, but simply says, "I'm going to Isengard, you can come if you want. Otherwise I'll see you in a couple days at Edoras. Toodles." Even as we approach Isengard later in the chapter, Gandalf doesn't reveal the mound for the riders but lets them assume that the Rohirrim dead at the Battle of the Fords were lieing scattered for the orcs and wolves to scavange: not until the Riders see the mound is there any mention. They don't sleep well the night in the Gap: its foggy, the river starts to flow again in the middle of the night, and again though Gandalf knows that Treebeard is up to something, he says nothing to calm the anxiety of Theoden and Co.

Two other things to mention quickly: Gimli's count is one ahead of Legolas. This is both a grim and yet amusing part of the story, this "competition" between friends. I never know whether to be somewhat grossed out or to feel like I'm part of the comraderie. I usually choose the latter.

The other thing to mention here is the fair treatment of the Dunlendings: their weapons removed, an oath of non-violence against the Rohirrim exacted, and forced labor in burying the dead and repairing the fort, then freedom.

Ok, a third thing: Hama, the door warden, died before the gate, the door warden doing his duty to death. That fact always saddens me, I very much like Hama though he appears for so little.

As they go through the new forest, a pathway is provided for them. Here Legolas expresses his wish to walk among the trees. But the surprsing thing is that Gimli the dwarf rhapsodizes in beautiful prose about the Glittering Caves of the Hornburg, a moving passage. My own inclination is for the trees, but almost Gimli makes a believer of me. The bargain is struck that Gimli will visit Fangorn with Legolas if Legolas comes to the Caves with Gimli.

These characters see the ents for the first time, and Theoden not for the first time remarks on the legends of the deep past walk in the grass of the present. The company reaches the Fords and begins to enter the results of the Ents work on Isengard. Ent, as you no doubt know, is an Old English word meaning "giant", but Tolkien in LoTR gives it such a special meaning. I can not read "ent" in any other context without thinking of Treebeard.

As the company finally reach the gates of Isengard and realize that Saruman has been overthrown, they spy two figures on the wreck about the gates. Tolkien gives us a detailed description of Isengard and its environs and a little of its history. We then return to the company, Merry's on his best manners welcomes them, the reunion of the Fellowship, or at least some of them (a scene that no matter how many rereadings I give LoTR never ceases to make me both laugh and cry). And Theoden, and the author's, brief foray not only into ancient Rohirrim legend of the hobylta, but of the word and the development of pipe weed and so on never cease to make me smile. Its one of the elements that keep me coming back time and again. Gandalf and Theoden and the Riders go off to find Treebeard. Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas, Merry, and Pippin prepare to sit down, eat, and exchange stories.

And a brief foray into philology: Isengard, were it a Germanic language, would simply be "Guard of the Isen", which since the tower is located with a view of the Gap of Rohan and is near the fords of the Isen, is an apt name. But in Old English, the language used to represent the language of Rohan, it means "iron fort", isen=iron, gard, or geard (ancestor of modern yard) is an encloruse, a fort, a dwelling. In Sindarin it was named Angrenost, iron fortress, from angen=iron, ost=fortress. Ah, that Tolkien.

The tower in the midst of the vale was named Orthanc. In Old English, the adjective orthanc means "clever, mechanical ingenuity" among other things and Tolkien tells us in this chapter that the name in Rhohirric mean "Cunning Mind" (similar by the way to Saruman, from searo man, cunning man, man of skill), but that in "elvish speech" it meant Mount Fang, undoubtedly for it stuck up from the plain below some 500 feet like a single fang or tooth.

End Chapter Summary. I'll post the summary of Flotsam and Jetsam with discussion points later today or this evening. But hopefully this will keep you wolves at bay for a bit.

Butterbeer · 05-14-2005, 04:08 PM

by a strange and not un-hitchhiker kinda co-incedence, Grey wolf and the homies are paused at bay in the Lyrds RPG at this very point: perhaps you could add some input there Forkbeard!

I look forward to the discussion points...

Impressed with the language-lore!
The meeting of the fellowship hobbits and the three hunters is a great and warming point and i agree the foray with Theoden & pipeweed and the rohirrim Holbyata adds much to fleshing out both him (theoden) and the world at large (or small as in this case)

Whats your single-most favourite part of the Chapter?

mithrand1r · 05-14-2005, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

Whats your single-most favourite part of the Chapter?

It is difficult for me to choose.

I think it was during the telling of Merry & Pippin's tale (at the guard house) when all of the pieces of the mystery are resolved for Aragorn, Legolas & Gimli.

Forkbeard,

I like your information regarding old english and old germanic. Tolkien definitely had a way with words.

Forkbeard · 05-16-2005, 11:52 AM

Sorry for the delay folks. But here is the summary for the next chapter and discussion points!

This chapter opens with the five members of the Fellowship watching Gandalf and Theoden and the Riders ride off to find Treebeard. The five gather in what remains of a guard room where Merry and Pippin have laid in some store of food and pipeweed, which they then share with Legolas, Gimli, and Aragorn. During the meal Gimli notes the change in size of the hobbits, not for the last time. Also, the presence of Longbottom Leaf in Isengard is mentioned, and again not for the last time. After the meal, the party moves out doors onto the "edge of ruin" where stories are exchanged. Actually, only one story is told. The three hunters do not give account of themselves to Merry and Pippin.

Pippin relates, and the author merely mentions this, events from the sundering of the Fellowship to the entrance of the hobbits into Fangorn. Merry then takes over the tale and quicky relates material we the reader already know: the hobbits' meeting with Treebeard, his odd look at the mention of Gandalf's fall, the Entmoot and its results, and the marching of the Ents against Isengard. The reader will recall that it is at this point that the tale left Merry, Pippin, and Treebeard and focused on the Three Hunters. Merry relates the emptying of Isengard, followed by Treebeard's asking to speak to Saruman and being answered with arrows. The Ents as we know then made a fine show of it, hundreds of years of the work of root and branch accomplished in minutes as the ents break, crack, and pull down the gates and walls of Isengard. Any orcs found are disposed of. Men are generally disarmed, questioned, and released where they run in fear. Saruman barely manages to escape to Orthanc where he engages his machinery hidden under the ground of the vale, and hurts a number of ents. The Ents in their fury throw themselves uselessly upon Orthanc: they can not hurt the tower. Setting a guard on Orthanc, Treebeard calls his people and they damn the Isen and gather any other stream, creek, or snow melt they can, releasing it into the vale at the ripe moment, drowning all the fires, ruining all Saruman's machinery, and in a cleansing baptism remove the filth of Saruman's treachery from the land, if not the wizard himself. Before releasing the waters, Treebeard warns the hobbits not to get in the way, and seems to be waiting for something or someone. Gandalf rides up on Shadowfax, and he and Treebeard go off for a short time. Gandalf then acknowledges the hobbits and rides off. As the work is completed and river returns to its course, Treebeard seeks out Merry and Pippin and tells them to prepare for visitors, when up rides Wormtongue. Grima is given two choices: Orthanc or wait with Treebeard for Theoden and Gandalf. He chooses Orthanc and is escorted to the tower across the waters. The chapter ends with the musings on the presence of Longbottom Leaf of the crop SR 1417 (3017) in Isengard.

Discussion Points:

1) Why is Gandalf playing things so close to the chest? Why doesn't he explain, at least a little, or allay the concerns of Theoden?

2) Why has Legolas not encountered Ents before? Surely he must have at least heard stories, and desired to seek them out?

3) Explain or comment on Gimli's discomfort with the trees.

4) Why is it Aragorn who dresses Gimli's wound?

5) What if any significance is there to the bargain of Gimli and Legolas?

6) Two sub-themes come out in the chapters on the Rohirrim that appear nowhere else (except to a lesser extent in the Shire): legends come to life, and more specifically children's stories come to life. This is a good place to discuss Tolkien's views of such things, On Fairy Stories, where or what in the Shire is an analogue, and why in these chapters does this theme come to the fore and why is it important for this people?

7) Speaking of the Battles of the Fords: why is so little mention made of Theodred, Theoden's son and heir? The only mention in the entire book is on the lips of Wormtongue a few chapters back. Why?

8) What is the significance of the red nails on the White Hand? Who did this and why?

9) Why are Legolas and Aragorn silent at the finding of the hobbits?

10) Not sure how to put this into a question, but there is a lot of language in this chapter. In addition to the things pointed out in the summary, there are other plays and informative things on words. There is also Gimli's description of the caves, Legolas' of the trees, the passing of the huorns and the ents, Tolkien's description of the landscape, particularly the approach to Isengard and Isengard as it once was. Lots of use of language here.

11) Gimli more than anyone else seems to me to be the principle character of the Road chapter, if there is a main character. Much is made of his appearance, his wound, his rhapsodic cave experience, and finally it is he who speaks to the hobbits.

12) Aragorn is certainly one of the great ones, why is he staying behind or not included in Treebeard's invitation?

13) Merry and Pippin describe a large group of orcs heading over a bridge on the Isen about a mile away, which is different than the troop that went down to Helms Deep. Where are these troops going and what became of them?

14) What strange songs do the Elves know about ent drafts? Hopefully nothing about fertilizer....

15) What is the correlation if any between trust in or building up of armies, machinery, etc and loss of personal power? Morgoth, Sauron, and Saruman all seem to exemplify this. How did Saruman lose his powers, surely defeat of his armies is insufficient to account for this?

16) After Gandalf leaves in Merry's account, Treebeard has new respect for the hobbit's not being so "hasty"--what did Gandalf say to Treebeard that would elicit this response.

17) How was Saruman able to keep his relationship with the Shire so secret?

18) It is interesting to note, that it is these 5 who remain in Middle Earth, at least until Aragorn's death. Any significance of that here?

19) What are Gandalf, Theoden, and Treebeard talking about?

20) Tolkien and "wise sayings": Proverbs occur throughout LoTR. IN this chapter there is, "One who can not cast away a treasure at need is in fetters." Are there others in these two chapters, and what is the importance of such proverbial lore in LoTR? Entertainment? Other?

The Wizard from Milan · 05-16-2005, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

4) Why is it Aragorn who dresses Gimli's wound?

Well, I guess it is the king's healing power. Aragorn is a more skilled healer than Gandalf (see the chapter House of Healing) and he is second to few (e.g. Elrond). When Aragron is unable to heal Frodo from the Morgul Blade, he says Frodo needs elven medicin, but we then realize that not just any elf would do (Glorofindel does not even attempt to heal Frodo, albeit his being in both worlds helps Frodo).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

8) What is the significance of the red nails on the White Hand? Who did this and why?

I think they symbolize blood on the supposedly pure hand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

15) What is the correlation if any between trust in or building up of armies, machinery, etc and loss of personal power? Morgoth, Sauron, and Saruman all seem to exemplify this. How did Saruman lose his powers, surely defeat of his armies is insufficient to account for this?

I think the correlation is an indirect one. Building machines is correlated with evil and evil looses out, hance the correlation you see. But I do see that there might be more than that. One could ask "Would Gandalf have been able to break Saruman's staff, had Treebeard not destroyed Saruman's army?"

Extra discussion point
Why could the Ent not destroy Orthanc? I know that there is a one-line explanation in the text (which I don't remember

). Does anybody know more? or want to speculate?

Butterbeer · 05-17-2005, 04:27 PM

16) presumably a lot more than he was willing initially to tell Theoden!

you can see him though: being really quite far beyond the other side in terms of being (by Ent terms) "Hasty" !

Telcontar_Dunedain · 05-17-2005, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

12) Aragorn is certainly one of the great ones, why is he staying behind or not included in Treebeard's invitation?

I think he was just being humble. It also happenes again in either this or the next chapter, when he says that only Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond would be safe alone with Saruman, I certainly have included him in this.

olsonm · 05-18-2005, 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

7) Speaking of the Battles of the Fords: why is so little mention made of Theodred, Theoden's son and heir? The only mention in the entire book is on the lips of Wormtongue a few chapters back. Why?

In, "The Voice of Saruman", Eomer says, "Remember Theodred at the fords...!" This adds to Theoden's line in, "The Road to Isengard": 'Alas!' said Theoden, 'Must we pass this way, where the carrion-beasts devour so many good Riders of the Mark?' Theoden is speaking of all those who died at the Fords but of his son in especial. At least that's how I interpret it.

Forkbeard · 05-18-2005, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by olsonm

In, "The Voice of Saruman", Eomer says, "Remember Theodred at the fords...!" This adds to Theoden's line in, "The Road to Isengard": 'Alas!' said Theoden, 'Must we pass this way, where the carrion-beasts devour so many good Riders of the Mark?' Theoden is speaking of all those who died at the Fords but of his son in especial. At least that's how I interpret it.

Ah yes. Still though, illustrates my point doesn't it? Even if we take Theoden's comment in "Road" as being more specific than it sounds (remember that the second battle of the Fords had just been fought, the First Battle had already occurred and it is the first battle that Theodred fell, back in Feb....unlikely that that there were bodies about from the first battle for the carrion.

olsonm · 05-18-2005, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Ah yes. Still though, illustrates my point doesn't it? Even if we take Theoden's comment in "Road" as being more specific than it sounds (remember that the second battle of the Fords had just been fought, the First Battle had already occurred and it is the first battle that Theodred fell, back in Feb....unlikely that that there were bodies about from the first battle for the carrion.

There weren't any bodies for the carrion-beasts as Gandalf had organized a burial the night before. The first battle of the fords was won by the Rohirrim only eight days before Theoden and co. arrived. The second battle only two days before. According to 'Unfinished Tales' of the fallen only Theodred was buried and that was a 'hasty mound'. So there would have been bodies from both battles laying exposed if Gandalf hadn't intervened. Theoden didn't know this and lamented the supposed fates of his men and of his son. (in my view)

Forkbeard · 05-19-2005, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wizard from Milan

Well, I guess it is the king's healing power. Aragorn is a more skilled healer than Gandalf (see the chapter House of Healing) and he is second to few (e.g. Elrond). When Aragron is unable to heal Frodo from the Morgul Blade, he says Frodo needs elven medicin, but we then realize that not just any elf would do (Glorofindel does not even attempt to heal Frodo, albeit his being in both worlds helps Frodo).

But all these are magical wounds--the Black Breath, the Morgul blade, surely Gandalf or a Rohirric medic is capable of dressing and bindig a minor head wound??!!??

Forkbeard · 05-19-2005, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by olsonm

There weren't any bodies for the carrion-beasts as Gandalf had organized a burial the night before. The first battle of the fords was won by the Rohirrim only eight days before Theoden and co. arrived. The second battle only two days before. According to 'Unfinished Tales' of the fallen only Theodred was buried and that was a 'hasty mound'. So there would have been bodies from both battles laying exposed if Gandalf hadn't intervened. Theoden didn't know this and lamented the supposed fates of his men and of his son. (in my view)

But the point is that Gandalf doesn't tell them that, he instead says something about the wolves and carrion not bothering the bodies since they're eating orcs.
They have not yet passed the mound, and when they do Gandalf does not explain it., but simply says "Friends have labored here." It is only on questioning that Gandalf reveals his role. So again, why the silence in the first place? When Theoden says, "Must we pass this way, where the carrion-beasts devour so many good Riders of the Mark?" why doesn't Gandalf simply say, "They're buried over here, come." or something to that effect.

olsonm · 05-19-2005, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

But the point is that Gandalf doesn't tell them that, he instead says something about the wolves and carrion not bothering the bodies since they're eating orcs.
They have not yet passed the mound, and when they do Gandalf does not explain it., but simply says "Friends have labored here." It is only on questioning that Gandalf reveals his role. So again, why the silence in the first place? When Theoden says, "Must we pass this way, where the carrion-beasts devour so many good Riders of the Mark?" why doesn't Gandalf simply say, "They're buried over here, come." or something to that effect.

Gandalf shows them what he did. Why tell them when they are only a few feet away. Gandalf is never one to say something when he doesn't have too. Might as well ask why he didn't tell them what was happening at Isengard. But why Gandalf did what he did is irrelavent to Theoden's initial reaction to the Ford's. He knew his men had held the Ford's until just two days before he came there. He had no reason not to think his men (and his son amongst them) were being desecrated by the carrion-beasts. He didn't want to see it.

Artanis · 05-22-2005, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Why has Legolas not encountered Ents before? Surely he must have at least heard stories, and desired to seek them out?

I do not doubt that Legolas has heard stories about the Ents before. But the Elves did not seem to make journeys around in Middle Earth unless it was necessary. Legolas does not seem to have travelled much, he appeares to me as relatively young and unexperienced. He had never been in Lórien before either, though Celeborn was a Sinda, and he had heard stories about the beauty of the mallorn trees.

Olmer · 05-22-2005, 11:59 AM

Good summory Forkbeard! I liked your pieces of philological explanation of some words; makes subject more visual.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Proverbs occur throughout LoTR. ...what is the importance of such proverbial lore in LoTR? Entertainment?

Usually every proverb is carrying a piece of collective wisdom based on past experiences. Saying one or another proverb you are making the point, that according that insight the actions you are taken will result in the stated in probverb predicament.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

How was Saruman able to keep his relationship with the Shire so secret?

It was not that secret. Gandalf knew about the spies in the Shire. He just from the beginning was under false impression that it was Sauron's snitches. I have no doubts that Rangers, so much experienced in tracking, had an idea of Saruman's connections with Shire. But then again, Saruman assumed to be a friend, so why bother?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

What is the correlation if any between trust in or building up of armies, machinery, etc and loss of personal power? Morgoth, Sauron, and Saruman all seem to exemplify this. How did Saruman lose his powers, surely defeat of his armies is insufficient to account for this?

This is a very good question! Do we need a progress to make us more advanced, or are we becoming a slaves of our own creations, making ourselves depend too much on it? Are we regressing in the terms of personal power as progress is making a headway?
For me personally it's a very troublesome sight to see some young people not able to do a simple calculations in mind, but grabbing for the aid of calculator.
But ,of course, it's a good subject for a separate topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

What strange songs do the Elves know about ent drafts? Hopefully nothing about fertilizer....

Heh-heh..

Every "magic" has a simple explanation.

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Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Why are Legolas and Aragorn silent at the finding of the hobbits?

Judging by the past experience, they probably was not too happy at the perspective of inclusion this two helpless bumblers in theirs efficient group.

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Originally Posted by Forkbeard

What is the significance of the red nails on the White Hand?

Saruman was too busy and did not have enough time for a french manicure?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Why is Gandalf playing things so close to the chest? Why doesn't he explain, at least a little, or allay the concerns of Theoden?

But he has never been too open about any of his plans, which could signify that they were somewhat different from what was to be expected according of the impression he was giving to others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Any orcs found are disposed of. Men are generally disarmed, questioned, and released where they run in fear.

I found it quite biassing to kill ones, who look different, and leave others , even if some men in theirs behaviors surpass the worst orc's traits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wizard from Milan

Why could the Ent not destroy Orthanc? I know that there is a one-line explanation in the text (which I don't remember ).

It was built in the Second age by Numenorians while they were extending their power North -East and called Angrenost - the "Iron -citadel", because it was bult according technology learned from the Elves of Eressea and has been virtually undestructable.

Telcontar_Dunedain · 05-22-2005, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olmer

Judging by the past experience, they probably was not too happy at the perspective of inclusion this two helpless bumblers in theirs efficient group.

I disagree. It was Aragorn's choice to go in search of them in the first place. He wouldn't have done that if he didn't want them alive and safe again.
Also there is a quote in RotK when Theoden and the Rohirrim are riding off when he says.

"There goes those whom I love, and the little one not the least"

That is from memory but the book says pretty much the same.

Gordis · 05-22-2005, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olmer

It was not that secret. Gandalf knew about the spies in the Shire. He just from the beginning was under false impression that it was Sauron's snitches.

Exactly! And Saruman's spies must have brought him the news about the queer happennings at Bilbo's Birthday Party. So probably Saruman knew about the Ring's location since 3001! Why hasn't he acted?

Butterbeer · 05-30-2005, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gordis

Exactly! And Saruman's spies must have brought him the news about the queer happennings at Bilbo's Birthday Party. So probably Saruman knew about the Ring's location since 3001! Why hasn't he acted?

As i recall gandalf wisely added a flash of his own to cover that: he would surely by be assumed by all to have caused the diseapperance and was labelled a 'distrurber of the peace' etc: unless you were sure or had any reason to think Bilbo had the One you would not imo look beyond the old friend and fire-work supremo gandalf to explain that.

I also agree with TD though i don't think Olmer was being all that serious about it to be honest: Legolas and Aragorn were of course happy to see them, gimli took the lead is all and the conversation flowed: Aragorn did not go off with "the great ones" etc merely because he'd much rather be here with his comrades, friends and to certainly get some detailed explanations of his judgemnts and guesses during their tracking .... he also probably shrewdly guessed that he'd get better fare with the hobbits too!

OLMER:

Quote:

This is a very good question! Do we need a progress to make us more advanced, or are we becoming a slaves of our own creations, making ourselves depend too much on it? Are we regressing in the terms of personal power as progress is making a headway?
For me personally it's a very troublesome sight to see some young people not able to do a simple calculations in mind, but grabbing for the aid of calculator.
But ,of course, it's a good subject for a separate topic.

Although calculators etc pre-date Tolkien when this was first written ( at least in the everyday form you refer to) i agree: forkbeards question is a whole thread in itself: i think its a theme throughout LOTR that bubbles away quietly in the background: JRRT laments the losing of the quiet peaceful shires, and the incredibly fast-changing world of mechanisation, Industrialisation, and the many sinister elements that emerged alongside these events in 20th century history.

Around Birmingham and the shires it literally swallowed up wholescale a whole landscape, culture and way of life was irrevecobaly changed exdtremely quickly - as it was elswhere of course.

JRRT always plays down these socio-political-historical elements in his books but to me they are as clear as day: as are his experiences in both brutal world wars: i always thought the color symbolism of Isengard (the bloddied hand) was related to the iconography of the nazis ...

Olmer · 05-30-2005, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gordis

So probably Saruman knew about the Ring's location since 3001! Why hasn't he acted?

Probably because in his turn he was watched by Sauron, and he did not want to tip him off about the subject of their mutual desire with any rush move .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

I also agree with TD though i don't think Olmer was being all that serious about it to be honest

It was a joke, of course, just like "french manicure...

Gordis · 05-30-2005, 01:09 PM

Probably Saruman knew about the Ring's location since 3001! Why hasn't he acted?
I prefer Butterbeer's explanation. Probably the flash added by Gandalf really put Saruman's spies off scent. Saruman still searched for the Ring in the River. I am sure, had he put two and two together as early as 3001, he would have sent a tief (why not a hobbit-tief?) to steal or change the Ring for a fake one. Frodo would have hardly noticed, as he was not using the Ring at all. Saruman could even come himself posing as Gandalf's buddy.

05-14-2005, 01:15 PM	#1
Forkbeard Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 369	LoTR discussion project: Book III, Chapters 8 and 9: The Road to Isengard I love this chapter. It opens with victory, pulled from the very jaws of defeat and death by means unlooked for. And of course, as will happen again later, and the symbolism is rife, it occurs at dawn with the coming of the White Rider, a new forest, and Erkenbrand of Westfold who relieve the defenders of the Hornburg. I love the name "hornburg": in Germanic languages "horn" in addition to meaning the thing sticking out of certain beasties' heads, means a projection, a pinnacle, a peak and "burg" which many will recognize originally indicated a fort or fortress. Hornburg=hill fort, but sounds so much cooler! And over the Dike, the extending wall protecting the fort from being surrounded, come Eomer and Gimli and Gamling the Old, something of a joke too. Gamling comes from gamol, old, hoary, so literally in that paragraph Tolkien calls him The Old One the Old. As an aside, note also the emphasis on AGE in Tolkien: Bombadill and Fangorn as the oldest of living things, Gandalf and the other Istari appearing as aged men who grew older slowly, but still are aged, the ancient elves (where do we see a young elf? An elf child?). Those we meet and get to know are very old: Arwen at a mere 2700, Galadriel around since the First Age as was Elrond; even Legolas isn't a young pup. Frodo is 50, and while young for a hobbit yet, is equivalent to a man in his 30s for us. And so on. I don't know that anyone has really explored this before, but maybe they have and the assembled here can fill me in. Moving off the first page....this chapter is somewhat frustrating the first time through. At least I remember being frustrated. Gandalf knows or at least suspects much. But he reveals NOTHING to Theoden or to us. We know what Gandalf knows: the trees and the Ents, what's happened at Isengard, and so on. But Gandalf tells nothing of this to Theoden and Aragorn, but simply says, "I'm going to Isengard, you can come if you want. Otherwise I'll see you in a couple days at Edoras. Toodles." Even as we approach Isengard later in the chapter, Gandalf doesn't reveal the mound for the riders but lets them assume that the Rohirrim dead at the Battle of the Fords were lieing scattered for the orcs and wolves to scavange: not until the Riders see the mound is there any mention. They don't sleep well the night in the Gap: its foggy, the river starts to flow again in the middle of the night, and again though Gandalf knows that Treebeard is up to something, he says nothing to calm the anxiety of Theoden and Co. Two other things to mention quickly: Gimli's count is one ahead of Legolas. This is both a grim and yet amusing part of the story, this "competition" between friends. I never know whether to be somewhat grossed out or to feel like I'm part of the comraderie. I usually choose the latter. The other thing to mention here is the fair treatment of the Dunlendings: their weapons removed, an oath of non-violence against the Rohirrim exacted, and forced labor in burying the dead and repairing the fort, then freedom. Ok, a third thing: Hama, the door warden, died before the gate, the door warden doing his duty to death. That fact always saddens me, I very much like Hama though he appears for so little. As they go through the new forest, a pathway is provided for them. Here Legolas expresses his wish to walk among the trees. But the surprsing thing is that Gimli the dwarf rhapsodizes in beautiful prose about the Glittering Caves of the Hornburg, a moving passage. My own inclination is for the trees, but almost Gimli makes a believer of me. The bargain is struck that Gimli will visit Fangorn with Legolas if Legolas comes to the Caves with Gimli. These characters see the ents for the first time, and Theoden not for the first time remarks on the legends of the deep past walk in the grass of the present. The company reaches the Fords and begins to enter the results of the Ents work on Isengard. Ent, as you no doubt know, is an Old English word meaning "giant", but Tolkien in LoTR gives it such a special meaning. I can not read "ent" in any other context without thinking of Treebeard. As the company finally reach the gates of Isengard and realize that Saruman has been overthrown, they spy two figures on the wreck about the gates. Tolkien gives us a detailed description of Isengard and its environs and a little of its history. We then return to the company, Merry's on his best manners welcomes them, the reunion of the Fellowship, or at least some of them (a scene that no matter how many rereadings I give LoTR never ceases to make me both laugh and cry). And Theoden, and the author's, brief foray not only into ancient Rohirrim legend of the hobylta, but of the word and the development of pipe weed and so on never cease to make me smile. Its one of the elements that keep me coming back time and again. Gandalf and Theoden and the Riders go off to find Treebeard. Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas, Merry, and Pippin prepare to sit down, eat, and exchange stories. And a brief foray into philology: Isengard, were it a Germanic language, would simply be "Guard of the Isen", which since the tower is located with a view of the Gap of Rohan and is near the fords of the Isen, is an apt name. But in Old English, the language used to represent the language of Rohan, it means "iron fort", isen=iron, gard, or geard (ancestor of modern yard) is an encloruse, a fort, a dwelling. In Sindarin it was named Angrenost, iron fortress, from angen=iron, ost=fortress. Ah, that Tolkien. The tower in the midst of the vale was named Orthanc. In Old English, the adjective orthanc means "clever, mechanical ingenuity" among other things and Tolkien tells us in this chapter that the name in Rhohirric mean "Cunning Mind" (similar by the way to Saruman, from searo man, cunning man, man of skill), but that in "elvish speech" it meant Mount Fang, undoubtedly for it stuck up from the plain below some 500 feet like a single fang or tooth. End Chapter Summary. I'll post the summary of Flotsam and Jetsam with discussion points later today or this evening. But hopefully this will keep you wolves at bay for a bit. Last edited by Forkbeard : 05-14-2005 at 04:25 PM.

05-16-2005, 11:52 AM	#4
Forkbeard Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 369	Flotsam and Jetsam Sorry for the delay folks. But here is the summary for the next chapter and discussion points! This chapter opens with the five members of the Fellowship watching Gandalf and Theoden and the Riders ride off to find Treebeard. The five gather in what remains of a guard room where Merry and Pippin have laid in some store of food and pipeweed, which they then share with Legolas, Gimli, and Aragorn. During the meal Gimli notes the change in size of the hobbits, not for the last time. Also, the presence of Longbottom Leaf in Isengard is mentioned, and again not for the last time. After the meal, the party moves out doors onto the "edge of ruin" where stories are exchanged. Actually, only one story is told. The three hunters do not give account of themselves to Merry and Pippin. Pippin relates, and the author merely mentions this, events from the sundering of the Fellowship to the entrance of the hobbits into Fangorn. Merry then takes over the tale and quicky relates material we the reader already know: the hobbits' meeting with Treebeard, his odd look at the mention of Gandalf's fall, the Entmoot and its results, and the marching of the Ents against Isengard. The reader will recall that it is at this point that the tale left Merry, Pippin, and Treebeard and focused on the Three Hunters. Merry relates the emptying of Isengard, followed by Treebeard's asking to speak to Saruman and being answered with arrows. The Ents as we know then made a fine show of it, hundreds of years of the work of root and branch accomplished in minutes as the ents break, crack, and pull down the gates and walls of Isengard. Any orcs found are disposed of. Men are generally disarmed, questioned, and released where they run in fear. Saruman barely manages to escape to Orthanc where he engages his machinery hidden under the ground of the vale, and hurts a number of ents. The Ents in their fury throw themselves uselessly upon Orthanc: they can not hurt the tower. Setting a guard on Orthanc, Treebeard calls his people and they damn the Isen and gather any other stream, creek, or snow melt they can, releasing it into the vale at the ripe moment, drowning all the fires, ruining all Saruman's machinery, and in a cleansing baptism remove the filth of Saruman's treachery from the land, if not the wizard himself. Before releasing the waters, Treebeard warns the hobbits not to get in the way, and seems to be waiting for something or someone. Gandalf rides up on Shadowfax, and he and Treebeard go off for a short time. Gandalf then acknowledges the hobbits and rides off. As the work is completed and river returns to its course, Treebeard seeks out Merry and Pippin and tells them to prepare for visitors, when up rides Wormtongue. Grima is given two choices: Orthanc or wait with Treebeard for Theoden and Gandalf. He chooses Orthanc and is escorted to the tower across the waters. The chapter ends with the musings on the presence of Longbottom Leaf of the crop SR 1417 (3017) in Isengard. Discussion Points: 1) Why is Gandalf playing things so close to the chest? Why doesn't he explain, at least a little, or allay the concerns of Theoden? 2) Why has Legolas not encountered Ents before? Surely he must have at least heard stories, and desired to seek them out? 3) Explain or comment on Gimli's discomfort with the trees. 4) Why is it Aragorn who dresses Gimli's wound? 5) What if any significance is there to the bargain of Gimli and Legolas? 6) Two sub-themes come out in the chapters on the Rohirrim that appear nowhere else (except to a lesser extent in the Shire): legends come to life, and more specifically children's stories come to life. This is a good place to discuss Tolkien's views of such things, On Fairy Stories, where or what in the Shire is an analogue, and why in these chapters does this theme come to the fore and why is it important for this people? 7) Speaking of the Battles of the Fords: why is so little mention made of Theodred, Theoden's son and heir? The only mention in the entire book is on the lips of Wormtongue a few chapters back. Why? 8) What is the significance of the red nails on the White Hand? Who did this and why? 9) Why are Legolas and Aragorn silent at the finding of the hobbits? 10) Not sure how to put this into a question, but there is a lot of language in this chapter. In addition to the things pointed out in the summary, there are other plays and informative things on words. There is also Gimli's description of the caves, Legolas' of the trees, the passing of the huorns and the ents, Tolkien's description of the landscape, particularly the approach to Isengard and Isengard as it once was. Lots of use of language here. 11) Gimli more than anyone else seems to me to be the principle character of the Road chapter, if there is a main character. Much is made of his appearance, his wound, his rhapsodic cave experience, and finally it is he who speaks to the hobbits. 12) Aragorn is certainly one of the great ones, why is he staying behind or not included in Treebeard's invitation? 13) Merry and Pippin describe a large group of orcs heading over a bridge on the Isen about a mile away, which is different than the troop that went down to Helms Deep. Where are these troops going and what became of them? 14) What strange songs do the Elves know about ent drafts? Hopefully nothing about fertilizer.... 15) What is the correlation if any between trust in or building up of armies, machinery, etc and loss of personal power? Morgoth, Sauron, and Saruman all seem to exemplify this. How did Saruman lose his powers, surely defeat of his armies is insufficient to account for this? 16) After Gandalf leaves in Merry's account, Treebeard has new respect for the hobbit's not being so "hasty"--what did Gandalf say to Treebeard that would elicit this response. 17) How was Saruman able to keep his relationship with the Shire so secret? 18) It is interesting to note, that it is these 5 who remain in Middle Earth, at least until Aragorn's death. Any significance of that here? 19) What are Gandalf, Theoden, and Treebeard talking about? 20) Tolkien and "wise sayings": Proverbs occur throughout LoTR. IN this chapter there is, "One who can not cast away a treasure at need is in fetters." Are there others in these two chapters, and what is the importance of such proverbial lore in LoTR? Entertainment? Other?

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05-14-2005, 04:08 PM	#2
Butterbeer Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: here and there Posts: 3,514	by a strange and not un-hitchhiker kinda co-incedence, Grey wolf and the homies are paused at bay in the Lyrds RPG at this very point: perhaps you could add some input there Forkbeard! I look forward to the discussion points... Impressed with the language-lore! The meeting of the fellowship hobbits and the three hunters is a great and warming point and i agree the foray with Theoden & pipeweed and the rohirrim Holbyata adds much to fleshing out both him (theoden) and the world at large (or small as in this case) Whats your single-most favourite part of the Chapter?

05-17-2005, 04:27 PM	#6
Butterbeer Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: here and there Posts: 3,514	16) presumably a lot more than he was willing initially to tell Theoden! you can see him though: being really quite far beyond the other side in terms of being (by Ent terms) "Hasty" !

05-30-2005, 01:09 PM	#20
Gordis Lady of the Ulairi Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Minas Morgul Posts: 2,783	Probably Saruman knew about the Ring's location since 3001! Why hasn't he acted? I prefer Butterbeer's explanation. Probably the flash added by Gandalf really put Saruman's spies off scent. Saruman still searched for the Ring in the River. I am sure, had he put two and two together as early as 3001, he would have sent a tief (why not a hobbit-tief?) to steal or change the Ring for a fake one. Frodo would have hardly noticed, as he was not using the Ring at all. Saruman could even come himself posing as Gandalf's buddy.