Pippin at the Black Gate

kennebecc · 01-10-2002, 10:09 PM

Pippin's antics throughout all three books certainly caused Gandalf
and the others a fair amount of stress. Certainly, his early behavior was humorous, especially in FOTR, but as time progressed his behavior became a hazard to not only to himself but others.

Pippin did realize that his behavior was not always appropriate, and there was somewhat of a redemption for him when he saved Farimir's life. However, I've always wondered about Gandalf's disapproval of that 'Fool of a Took'. Wasn't the WitchKing rising, at the same moment that Pippin was pleading for Gandalf to come and save Farimir. Gandalf had to make a choice between stopping Denethor, or going after the WitchKing. In the book, Gandalf seems to regretfully go with Pippin. Faramir is saved, but the WitchKing kills Theoden, and gravely wounds Eowyn and Merry. Please forgive me if the events are off a bit, it's been awhile since I read the ROTK. I always got the impression that Gandalf did not like Pippin too much, not only from the above event, but for the one that occured at the Black Gate.

Pippin, along with the remainder of the Fellowship, and the armies travel to the Black Gate. There they are surrounded by Sauron's armies. The Mouth of Sauron brings out Sam's sword, a grey cloak with an elven-brooch, and the coat of mithril. Pippin, who is just a hobbit, not a warrior, is justifiably startled, and genuinely grief stricken. Of course, his outburst alerts the Mouth of Sauron that Gandalf and company know who the items belong to. After some amount of discussion, Gandalf makes a decision to take the clothes in memory of their comrade. Pippin is devastated.
As readers we can probably surmise that Gandalf has noticed that there is no mention of the Ring, nor any evidence that Sauron now posesses the Ring. But, what of Pippin . . . maybe Gandalf didn't have time since they were surrounded, but why didn't he speak to Pippin, and give him some hope that not all was lost?

Pippin goes into battle, crushed with horror, and thinking that it would be best for him to die soon. I have always thought that was terribly harsh, even though he proves valiant against the troll. (how many of us had a smirk that Pippin's demise might come from being squashed by a troll? Tolkien did have a sense of humor).

I don't know if you can really say Gandalf mistreated Pippin, since Pippin usually deserved what happened to him, but the scene at the Black Gate has always bothered me a bit. Anyone else ever feel that way?

Wayfarer · 01-10-2002, 10:11 PM

I always got the impression, especially in the second and third volumes, that gandalf was quite fond of pippen.

kennebecc · 01-10-2002, 10:20 PM

I always got mixed messages about Gandalf's feelings towards Pippin. I, too, thought that he was genuinely fond of Pippin, until the scene at the Black Gate. I don't think that he wished for Pippin to be killed or harmed, by any means, but I just could never figure out why he didn't give Pippin some measure of hope.

Renille · 01-10-2002, 11:46 PM

I think he wanted to make Pippin more stern...more "tough." So he didn't give him any hope so that Pippin could find his own hope, within himself.

Oh and by the way, I was nearly crying when Pippin was crushed by the troll. I was NOT smirking by any means.

ladyisme · 01-11-2002, 12:29 AM

Gandalf just could not risk it. If he had given Pipin a few words of hope he would have run the risk of dropping clues of Frodo's true quest right in front of "The Mouth of Sauron" and the stakes at that point in the game were just to high to take that chance.

Quote:

"The road goes ever on and on down from the door where it began."

kennebecc · 01-11-2002, 12:52 AM

>>dropping clues of Frodo's true quest right in front of "The Mouth of Sauron" <<

But, the Mouth of Sauron had already retreated by the time that Pippin stood in the front ranks feeling it was 'best for him to die soon and leave the bitter story of his life, since all was in ruin.'

My original feeling (many moons ago) was that Pippin was abandoned at this point. I have only read the trilogy three times in 30 years but this part had always bothered me. I suppose it could be argued that Gandalf had more important matters on his mind, but for someone he supposedly is fond of, it appears that he does let Pippin down.

>>nearly crying when Pippin was crushed by the troll. I was NOT smirking by any means.<<

I didn't mean this in a disrespectful way. I love the character of Pippin too. I was looking at it from the perspective of how Tolkien writes, creates his characters and enhances them in his story line. English majors do that. Sorry.

afro-elf · 01-11-2002, 11:44 AM

Oops!

Thought it said pimpin' at the black gate.

Strange-Looking Lurker · 01-11-2002, 12:27 PM

It seems that Gandalf was, to say the least, a little bit busy at the moment.

Menelvagor · 01-11-2002, 07:09 PM

You have to remember that this was the moment that Gandalf's life had been building towards for centuries. I think there is a ligitimate arugment that he had other things on his mind. They thought that Frodo had been found and that was the end. They were all going to die there. Gandalf had a lot to think about. The flip side of that is, that, if it's the end of the workd, whatelse is there to do but confort your friends.

My other thought on that is that Gandalf, beliveing all was lost, might have agreed with him, there WAS nothing left except to die bravely.

orald · 01-11-2002, 08:38 PM

Yep,this was the end.

FrodoFriend · 01-11-2002, 09:08 PM

Gandalf doesn't exist just to cater to Pippin's needs. They had a battle to fight. I don't think Gandalf thought Frodo was dead, but I get the feeling he suspected that the Quest was about to be fulfilled and that distracting the Enemy at that moment was imperative. Poor Pippin's woes, legitimate though they are, are obviously secondary to that.

Graham · 01-12-2002, 12:32 AM

Gandalf was/is no fool, he quickly understood that the clothes the servant of Sauron showed were proof that Sauron did not have Frodo. For one thing the servant spoke as if there were but one, unknown 'creature'. Clearly they had nothing more than the clothes. Why bargin when Sauron had the Ring? Sauron would have destroyed them all instantly if he had the Ring. Gandalf soon realises that not only was Frodo not in Sauron's hands, but that he was still possibly alive, or at least one Hobbit was, and that Sauron did not have the Ring, didn't know where it was, and that at least one Hobbit was very close to completing the quest, and therefore needed the adversion of the battle. Gandalf knew that Sauron would turn his full attention towards the Ring when it was discovered which would turn the war in their favour (as it would have left the Orcs without direction). Read the text carefully. Also when Gandalf snatched the prize from the startled 'Mouth of Sauron' Sauron sprang his trap. The battle was on almost instantly and Gandalf had no time what so ever to explain to Pippin, nor anyone else, exactly what was going on. It all happened at once. Gandalf and Aragorn did not have enough time to even issue orders to the soldiers, read the text. Pippin was only just thinking on what Gandalf had said when the first wave of the enemy hit them and he had to fight for his life. Impossible for him to even ask Gandalf a question, let alone recieve councel. Impossible for Gandalf or anyone to say anything about what might have happened to Frodo & Sam. Read the events again.

Gandalf's love of Pippin and indeeed for all the members of the fellowship can not be questioned.

Graham

Nenya · 01-12-2002, 12:18 PM

I think Gandalf was fond of Pippin, but sometimes exasperated by him too, you have to admit, he did do some stupid things (Pippin, not Gandalf). As far as the events at the Black gate go, I think Gandalf knew that it was now or never for Frodo, and that he had to keep on with the bluff they were trying to pull until it was over one way or the other, and if that meant being momentarily cruel to Pippin, then that was the way it had to be. Afterall, he did have the fate of the entire future of middle earth to think about as well as the feelings of one hobbit!

kennebecc · 01-12-2002, 02:53 PM

>>Gandalf's love of Pippin<<

Thank you for this comment Graham, for indeed I was questioning
Gandalfs feelings for this hobbit. Now, I am rethinking this a bit that this is following fate and difficult choices. Just as Gandalf had to decide between Farimir or Theoden, he also needed to decide between Pippin and Frodo. He didn't really abandon his love for Pippin, as much as he left Pippin to his fate. (Luckily, Gimli wasn't too far away)

When I think about it this does seem to be an undercurrent theme throughout Lord of the Rings.

EdBlackadder · 01-12-2002, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kennebecc
>>Gandalf's love of Pippin<<

Thank you for this comment Graham, for indeed I was questioning
Gandalfs feelings for this hobbit. Now, I am rethinking this a bit that this is following fate and difficult choices. Just as Gandalf had to decide between Farimir or Theoden, he also needed to decide between Pippin and Frodo. He didn't really abandon his love for Pippin, as much as he left Pippin to his fate. (Luckily, Gimli wasn't too far away)

When I think about it this does seem to be an undercurrent theme throughout Lord of the Rings.

Thinking about it, it doesn seem to come up a lot doesn't it?

The relationship between Gandalf and Pippin always seems to remind me of the relationship i have with one of the younger kids at school. He can be really annoying at times (he drives my friends round the bend) but i just can't help liking him. I think Gandalf and Pippin have something like that going, all Pippin's stupid mistakes help endear gandalf to him in a strange way.

KGamgee · 01-12-2002, 07:17 PM

I think that Gandalf was definitely fond of Pippin. He wasn't mistreated. I mean come on, he did some stupid stuff. Gandalf didn't really give him any hope because at that moment, no one really had any. All clues showed that Sam and Frodo were captured. There army couldn't stand up to Mordor and there wasn't really any hope left for Gandalf to give.

bropous · 01-13-2002, 02:22 PM

Gandalf was certainly fond of Pippin, as he was of all the hobbits. Pippin might have aggravated him at times, but Gandalf proves he loves the little hobbit after Pippin snatches the Palantir and has his little tete-a-tete with Sauron. Gandalf treats the young hobbit with kindness and understanding.

Also, in Minas Tirith, Gandalf is more than once kind to Pip.

As far as the Mouth of Sauron goes, ladyisme, FrodoFriend, Graham, Nenya and Strange-Looking Lurker hit it right on the head. Gandalf knew that Sauron had not the Ring, and furthermore, that He did not have Frodo. Had Sauron had Frodo in his possession, he would have hung his tortured and maimed body from the Gates of Morannon, but even more importantly, He would not have sent his lieutenant out to parley with the Army of Gondor and its Allies. Sauron would simply have unleashed his forces at the first sight of the van, and strode forth himself to destroy all.

Sauron was scared that someone in the Army had the One Ring, and Gandalf bloody well wanted him to think so. the Mouth of Sauron was sent out to discern whether the Army was in possession of the one thing that could challenge the power of the Dark Lord.

"pimpin' at the gates".....LOL, afro-elf, you're incorrigible!

afro-elf · 01-13-2002, 02:30 PM

Yeap !

kennebecc · 01-13-2002, 02:34 PM

>>Thought it said pimpin' at the black gate. <<

Oh, I forgot to BONK afro-elf for that.

I thank you all for your responses, some of you seemed to have misunderstood what I said. But, that's okay, I do feel better about this part than I once did. Gandalfs sharp comments to Pippin regarding Faramir, and than his subsequent words at the Black Gate did make me think he did not care for this 'fool'. But, I no longer totally believe that.

This is slightly off topic, as it deals with the coming movie, ROtK. Some reports have placed Merry with Pippin in the scene at the Black Gate, which will stray from the book. That will be interesting.

afro-elf · 01-13-2002, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Oh, I forgot to BONK afro-elf for that.

BONK accepted. I deserve it.

01-10-2002, 10:09 PM	#1
kennebecc Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: US Posts: 35	Pippin at the Black Gate Pippin's antics throughout all three books certainly caused Gandalf and the others a fair amount of stress. Certainly, his early behavior was humorous, especially in FOTR, but as time progressed his behavior became a hazard to not only to himself but others. Pippin did realize that his behavior was not always appropriate, and there was somewhat of a redemption for him when he saved Farimir's life. However, I've always wondered about Gandalf's disapproval of that 'Fool of a Took'. Wasn't the WitchKing rising, at the same moment that Pippin was pleading for Gandalf to come and save Farimir. Gandalf had to make a choice between stopping Denethor, or going after the WitchKing. In the book, Gandalf seems to regretfully go with Pippin. Faramir is saved, but the WitchKing kills Theoden, and gravely wounds Eowyn and Merry. Please forgive me if the events are off a bit, it's been awhile since I read the ROTK. I always got the impression that Gandalf did not like Pippin too much, not only from the above event, but for the one that occured at the Black Gate. Pippin, along with the remainder of the Fellowship, and the armies travel to the Black Gate. There they are surrounded by Sauron's armies. The Mouth of Sauron brings out Sam's sword, a grey cloak with an elven-brooch, and the coat of mithril. Pippin, who is just a hobbit, not a warrior, is justifiably startled, and genuinely grief stricken. Of course, his outburst alerts the Mouth of Sauron that Gandalf and company know who the items belong to. After some amount of discussion, Gandalf makes a decision to take the clothes in memory of their comrade. Pippin is devastated. As readers we can probably surmise that Gandalf has noticed that there is no mention of the Ring, nor any evidence that Sauron now posesses the Ring. But, what of Pippin . . . maybe Gandalf didn't have time since they were surrounded, but why didn't he speak to Pippin, and give him some hope that not all was lost? Pippin goes into battle, crushed with horror, and thinking that it would be best for him to die soon. I have always thought that was terribly harsh, even though he proves valiant against the troll. (how many of us had a smirk that Pippin's demise might come from being squashed by a troll? Tolkien did have a sense of humor). I don't know if you can really say Gandalf mistreated Pippin, since Pippin usually deserved what happened to him, but the scene at the Black Gate has always bothered me a bit. Anyone else ever feel that way?

01-10-2002, 10:11 PM	#2
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	I always got the impression, especially in the second and third volumes, that gandalf was quite fond of pippen. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

01-10-2002, 11:46 PM	#4
Renille Elven Lady of Speed-posting Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the cheese state Posts: 988	I think he wanted to make Pippin more stern...more "tough." So he didn't give him any hope so that Pippin could find his own hope, within himself. Oh and by the way, I was nearly crying when Pippin was crushed by the troll. I was NOT smirking by any means. __________________ Oh the thinks you can think! Think and wonder and dream...far and wide as you dare! When your thinks have run dry, in the blink of an eye, there's another world there... (from Seussical the Musical. Listen to it...watch it...really.)

01-11-2002, 12:52 AM	#6
kennebecc Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: US Posts: 35	>>dropping clues of Frodo's true quest right in front of "The Mouth of Sauron" << But, the Mouth of Sauron had already retreated by the time that Pippin stood in the front ranks feeling it was 'best for him to die soon and leave the bitter story of his life, since all was in ruin.' My original feeling (many moons ago) was that Pippin was abandoned at this point. I have only read the trilogy three times in 30 years but this part had always bothered me. I suppose it could be argued that Gandalf had more important matters on his mind, but for someone he supposedly is fond of, it appears that he does let Pippin down. >>nearly crying when Pippin was crushed by the troll. I was NOT smirking by any means.<< I didn't mean this in a disrespectful way. I love the character of Pippin too. I was looking at it from the perspective of how Tolkien writes, creates his characters and enhances them in his story line. English majors do that. Sorry. Last edited by kennebecc : 01-11-2002 at 01:03 AM.

01-11-2002, 11:44 AM	#7
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Oops! Thought it said pimpin' at the black gate. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

01-10-2002, 10:20 PM	#3
kennebecc Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: US Posts: 35	I always got mixed messages about Gandalf's feelings towards Pippin. I, too, thought that he was genuinely fond of Pippin, until the scene at the Black Gate. I don't think that he wished for Pippin to be killed or harmed, by any means, but I just could never figure out why he didn't give Pippin some measure of hope.

01-11-2002, 12:27 PM	#8
Strange-Looking Lurker Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: OK, USA Posts: 213	It seems that Gandalf was, to say the least, a little bit busy at the moment. __________________ <hr>Check out my site: www.christianjugglers.org

01-11-2002, 07:09 PM	#9
Menelvagor Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: lurking on the edge of conversations Posts: 924	You have to remember that this was the moment that Gandalf's life had been building towards for centuries. I think there is a ligitimate arugment that he had other things on his mind. They thought that Frodo had been found and that was the end. They were all going to die there. Gandalf had a lot to think about. The flip side of that is, that, if it's the end of the workd, whatelse is there to do but confort your friends. My other thought on that is that Gandalf, beliveing all was lost, might have agreed with him, there WAS nothing left except to die bravely.

01-11-2002, 08:38 PM	#10
orald Enting Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: 2 blocks from Minas Tirith Posts: 59	Yep,this was the end.

01-11-2002, 09:08 PM	#11
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	Gandalf doesn't exist just to cater to Pippin's needs. They had a battle to fight. I don't think Gandalf thought Frodo was dead, but I get the feeling he suspected that the Quest was about to be fulfilled and that distracting the Enemy at that moment was imperative. Poor Pippin's woes, legitimate though they are, are obviously secondary to that. __________________ Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears

01-12-2002, 12:32 AM	#12
Graham Sapling Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 10	Gandalf was/is no fool, he quickly understood that the clothes the servant of Sauron showed were proof that Sauron did not have Frodo. For one thing the servant spoke as if there were but one, unknown 'creature'. Clearly they had nothing more than the clothes. Why bargin when Sauron had the Ring? Sauron would have destroyed them all instantly if he had the Ring. Gandalf soon realises that not only was Frodo not in Sauron's hands, but that he was still possibly alive, or at least one Hobbit was, and that Sauron did not have the Ring, didn't know where it was, and that at least one Hobbit was very close to completing the quest, and therefore needed the adversion of the battle. Gandalf knew that Sauron would turn his full attention towards the Ring when it was discovered which would turn the war in their favour (as it would have left the Orcs without direction). Read the text carefully. Also when Gandalf snatched the prize from the startled 'Mouth of Sauron' Sauron sprang his trap. The battle was on almost instantly and Gandalf had no time what so ever to explain to Pippin, nor anyone else, exactly what was going on. It all happened at once. Gandalf and Aragorn did not have enough time to even issue orders to the soldiers, read the text. Pippin was only just thinking on what Gandalf had said when the first wave of the enemy hit them and he had to fight for his life. Impossible for him to even ask Gandalf a question, let alone recieve councel. Impossible for Gandalf or anyone to say anything about what might have happened to Frodo & Sam. Read the events again. Gandalf's love of Pippin and indeeed for all the members of the fellowship can not be questioned. Graham

01-12-2002, 12:18 PM	#13
Nenya Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bristol, England Posts: 24	I think Gandalf was fond of Pippin, but sometimes exasperated by him too, you have to admit, he did do some stupid things (Pippin, not Gandalf). As far as the events at the Black gate go, I think Gandalf knew that it was now or never for Frodo, and that he had to keep on with the bluff they were trying to pull until it was over one way or the other, and if that meant being momentarily cruel to Pippin, then that was the way it had to be. Afterall, he did have the fate of the entire future of middle earth to think about as well as the feelings of one hobbit!

01-12-2002, 02:53 PM	#14
kennebecc Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: US Posts: 35	>>Gandalf's love of Pippin<< Thank you for this comment Graham, for indeed I was questioning Gandalfs feelings for this hobbit. Now, I am rethinking this a bit that this is following fate and difficult choices. Just as Gandalf had to decide between Farimir or Theoden, he also needed to decide between Pippin and Frodo. He didn't really abandon his love for Pippin, as much as he left Pippin to his fate. (Luckily, Gimli wasn't too far away) When I think about it this does seem to be an undercurrent theme throughout Lord of the Rings.

01-12-2002, 07:17 PM	#16
KGamgee Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 103	I think that Gandalf was definitely fond of Pippin. He wasn't mistreated. I mean come on, he did some stupid stuff. Gandalf didn't really give him any hope because at that moment, no one really had any. All clues showed that Sam and Frodo were captured. There army couldn't stand up to Mordor and there wasn't really any hope left for Gandalf to give.

01-13-2002, 02:22 PM	#17
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Gandalf was certainly fond of Pippin, as he was of all the hobbits. Pippin might have aggravated him at times, but Gandalf proves he loves the little hobbit after Pippin snatches the Palantir and has his little tete-a-tete with Sauron. Gandalf treats the young hobbit with kindness and understanding. Also, in Minas Tirith, Gandalf is more than once kind to Pip. As far as the Mouth of Sauron goes, ladyisme, FrodoFriend, Graham, Nenya and Strange-Looking Lurker hit it right on the head. Gandalf knew that Sauron had not the Ring, and furthermore, that He did not have Frodo. Had Sauron had Frodo in his possession, he would have hung his tortured and maimed body from the Gates of Morannon, but even more importantly, He would not have sent his lieutenant out to parley with the Army of Gondor and its Allies. Sauron would simply have unleashed his forces at the first sight of the van, and strode forth himself to destroy all. Sauron was scared that someone in the Army had the One Ring, and Gandalf bloody well wanted him to think so. the Mouth of Sauron was sent out to discern whether the Army was in possession of the one thing that could challenge the power of the Dark Lord. "pimpin' at the gates".....LOL, afro-elf, you're incorrigible! __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-13-2002, 02:30 PM	#18
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Yeap ! __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

01-13-2002, 02:34 PM	#19
kennebecc Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: US Posts: 35	>>Thought it said pimpin' at the black gate. << Oh, I forgot to BONK afro-elf for that. I thank you all for your responses, some of you seemed to have misunderstood what I said. But, that's okay, I do feel better about this part than I once did. Gandalfs sharp comments to Pippin regarding Faramir, and than his subsequent words at the Black Gate did make me think he did not care for this 'fool'. But, I no longer totally believe that. This is slightly off topic, as it deals with the coming movie, ROtK. Some reports have placed Merry with Pippin in the scene at the Black Gate, which will stray from the book. That will be interesting.

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