How to take a Ring from an unwilling Ring-wielder? - crazy ideas

[Gordis]

How to take a Ring from an unwilling Ring-wielder?

This question, put by Landroval, is so interesting that it deserves a special thread, IMO. Also I have some crazy ideas on the matter that I would like to share.

Council of Elrond: Balin will find no ring in Moria, said Gandalf. Thror gave it to Thrain his son, but not Thrain to Thorin. It was taken with torment from Thrain in the dungeons of Dol Guldur. I came too late.

Originally Posted by Landroval

You know, I wonder, why was it necessary to take the ring with torment? Wouldn't sheer force suffice? Perhaps a common feature of the power rings was to be hidden to everyone and hold on to its master. Gandalf maintained his ring, even though he was imprisoned by Saruman and even when reimbodied; Sauron too kept the ring to himself all the time, with the destruction of Numenor and whatnot; we could speculate about how Galadriel and Elrond kept their rings secret too...

You know, it is so very true, Landroval.

Perhaps some torment was what every prisoner received in Sauron's dungeon's just as a part of the service - like towels in a hotel?? But there may be MUCH more to it...

Have you noticed, that no one apparently had his ring DRAGGED from his finger by force?
I mean, Sauron had his finger cut first, Frodo as well, in Isildur's and Gollum's cases, the Ring slipped from the finger all by itself; in Deagol's case, he was most probably killed when NOT wearing the Ring; in cases of the ring transfers from one person to another their owners didn't actually WEAR the rings, as in Frodo-Sam's case (near Shelob's lair), or took off the rings willingly.

Probably, it is just IMPOSSIBLE to drag a ring of Power off someone's finger without either cutting off the finger or killing the ring-wielder - in a special way (see below)?

The other option is to torture the wielder, so he gives you his ring himself?

I guess, in the case of Thrain, the last method was used, as the dwarf became mentally and physically damaged. It wouldn't have happened if only his finger was cut away.

I don't think a Ring could be hidden from either Sauron, or Saruman: "invisible" in Tolkien's world means "existing in the World of Shadows", but both Maiar had access to it. And Saruman knew about Gandalf's ring (UT). Probably he just didn't want to cut his colleague's finger off, or torment him really hard - he may still have hoped that Gandalf would co-operate? And killing the maia Gandalf would make him take the Ring with him - as Sauron did when "killed" in Numenor.

And if we go a little further (maybe further than it is reasonable ), could it be that ANY wielder, if killed with a Ring ON, takes the Ring with him, when he becomes a mere spirit?

So, if orcs killed Gollum while he was WEARING the Ring, there would be no material "Precious" on the finger of his dead body, instead, his spirit would take the Ring with him to Mandos and beyond? (sounds crazy?)

The same way with Isildur: if the Orcs had shot Isildur while he was invisible, the Ring would have gone out of the Circles of the World with his soul forever? Maybe the Ring felt this danger, that's why it slipped from Isildur's finger?

And Frodo at Weathertop: note that the Nazgul approached the hobbits with NORMAL swords. They could have chopped Frodo to pieces quite easily, attacking all at once. BUT, it was only the Witch-King (who had a Morgul Blade) who attacked him, and he wounded Frodo with this weapon ONLY, not the long sword he had in his other hand.
Why not chop the hobbit's head off, take the body, Ring and all, and carry away?
- Perhaps because in this way, there would be NO ring on his dead body, and try to get it back from the Halls of Mandos!

The Morgul Blade was the ONLY suitable weapon - it bounded the soul to the Middle Earth, making it unable to leave.
Perhaps, this was also the reason why Sauron sent the Nazgul for the Ring, not some mortals. The ringbearer HAD to be killed with a MORGUL Blade, that was crucial.

Thoughts?

[ecthelion]

IMO, you can rest your case. It's quite a complete argument.
Only one small question - why should sauron torment Thrain instead of just cutting all of his fingers?

[CAB]

That is a very interesting idea ...ummm...Gordroval.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Probably, it is just IMPOSSIBLE to drag a ring of Power off someone's finger without either cutting off the finger or killing the ring-wielder

I would guess that this part is quite likely true. Maybe the Elves originally built the rings this way just to keep from losing them and Sauron followed suit in making the One.

Originally Posted by Gordis

And if we go a little further (maybe further than it is reasonable ), could it be that ANY wielder, if killed with a Ring ON, takes the Ring with him, when he becomes a mere spirit?

I think in the letter that tells how Sauron brought the Ring back to Middle Earth from the ruins of Numenor, it is said that it is Sauron’s nature that allows him to carry the Ring, not any kind of connection between ring and holder.

Originally Posted by Gordis

And Frodo at Weathertop: note that the Nazgul approached the hobbits with NORMAL swords. They could have chopped Frodo to pieces quite easily, attacking all at once. BUT, it was only the Witch-King (who had a Morgul Blade) who attacked him, and he wounded Frodo with this weapon ONLY, not the long sword he had in his other hand.
Why not chop the hobbit's head off, take the body, Ring and all, and carry away?

To me, there isn’t really a good explanation for the Nazguls’ actions on Weathertop. I personally believe that the situation is best (but still not sufficiently) explained by malice causing poor decision making (Frodo’s friends get to watch as he turns into a wraith). Even if the Nazgul couldn’t kill Frodo (for whatever reason), they could have killed everyone else and captured him. It’s not like he could put the Ring on and disappear from the Nazguls’ view. One of Tolkien’s letters says that the Nazgul were frightened that they met any resistance, but this doesn’t explain why the Witch King obviously intended to use the morgul blade. Even if Frodo had only held off “wraithdom� as long as the Nazgul expected, this would still be a few days. Why the wasted time and added risk? What would keep one of Frodo’s companions from taking the Ring (he wasn’t always wearing it) from him? People are supposed to be tempted to take the Ring, aren’t they? It doesn’t add up.

Originally Posted by Gordis

The Morgul Blade was the ONLY suitable weapon - it bounded the soul to the Middle Earth, making it unable to leave.
Perhaps, this was also the reason why Sauron sent the Nazgul for the Ring, not some mortals. The ringbearer HAD to be killed with a MORGUL Blade, that was crucial.

That is an interesting idea, but, like I said, I don’t think sufficiently explains their actions. They could have tied Frodo up and then stabbed him with the blade.

If removal of a great ring could be accomplished by taking off a finger (obviously, it could), I don’t see why these other techniques would be needed.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by ecthelion

Only one small question - why should sauron torment Thrain instead of just cutting all of his fingers?

Hmm, perhaps he loved tormenting those impertinent Dwarves who wasted one of his Rings, had it for an Age and a half, but didn't serve him? He was Sauron, after all...By the way, perhaps he did cut Thrain's finger as well.

Originally Posted by CAB

I think in the letter that tells how Sauron brought the Ring back to Middle Earth from the ruins of Numenor, it is said that it is Sauron’s nature that allows him to carry the Ring, not any kind of connection between ring and holder.

It is true, of course. That is why I called my idea "crazy". But it does explain some things, does it not?

Originally Posted by CAB

To me, there isn’t really a good explanation for the Nazguls’ actions on Weathertop. I personally believe that the situation is best (but still not sufficiently) explained by malice causing poor decision making (Frodo’s friends get to watch as he turns into a wraith).

I think, if malice were involved, it was not the desire to hurt his friends' feelings. Most likely it was Sauron's ORDER to the Nazgul to bring back not only the Ring, but also "Baggins", ALIVE or as a wraith.

Note that at the Ford, the Nazgul called to him: "Come back! To Mordor we will take you" and only when he refused, they settled for having only the Ring "The Ring! Give us the Ring".

I think, when the nazgul surrounded Frodo at Weathertop, they intended to capture him ALIVE. Because, really, no nazgul tried to kill him with a sword. If Frodo had no blade, he would have been carried away, kicking and screaming, all right.

The Witch-King attacked Frodo with the Morgul Blade, ONLY when he saw Frodo's flaming sword from Barrow-Downs and recognized its danger.

That was a big surprise for the WK, for he hasn't seen such swords for 1500 years, since TA 1409. All such swords either perished, or were kept safely in the Barrows guarded by the Wights. I think, guarding the blades was the primary task the WK assigned to them, when sending the Wights from Angmar to inhabit the Barrows, back in TA 1640 or something...

A midget Frodo was, of course, half the WK's size, but his little pin of a sword was the worse threat imaginable: "No other sword..."
And note that Frodo was decidedly "no Man" , which couldn't have escaped the WK's notice.
The little snake was obviously deadly.

There, I believe, the WK has made a big mistake: he should have paused to break the dangerous sword at a distance, with a spell, as he did later at the Ford. Instead, he bravely attacked immediately, wielding his Morgul blade, having settled for bringing Frodo back, not alive, but as a wraith.

But Frodo stroke first, and stroke unexpectedly low, throwing himself on the ground and aiming for the nazgul's legs (and calling out to a certain Valie in the process). The WK almost got killed himself! So, the WK's blade, aimed at the hobbit's heart, only met his arm.

Then Aragorn came with his flaming branches, and the two parties separated, all the participants considerably shaken.

Note that at the Ford, when coming over to get Frodo, the WK didn't repeat the same mistake: he broke Frodo's sword first, and made him mute, preventing him to call to Elbereth, before he approached him.

Originally Posted by CAB

Even if Frodo had only held off “wraithdom� as long as the Nazgul expected, this would still be a few days. Why the wasted time and added risk? What would keep one of Frodo’s companions from taking the Ring (he wasn’t always wearing it) from him? People are supposed to be tempted to take the Ring, aren’t they? It doesn’t add up.

I believe, the nazgul never intended to strike Frodo in the shoulder and wait for him to fade. IMO, if the Morgul Blade touched the heart, or passed anywhere near it, Frodo would have become wraith immediately, or in a matter of minutes, and just followed the WK like a dog, away from his friends.

Perhaps, given the erratic fight, the WK was not really sure what part of Frodo had been wounded.

But the rest doesn't add up, really. It is very strange, that the nazgul permitted the hobbits and Aragorn to get lost in the wilderness again, but not followed them from Weathertop.

Of course, Frodo's companions should have taken the Ring from him, when he came too close to becoming a wraith. I always wondered why they let Frodo keep the Ring, while he was hovering on the border of wraithdom. He could have suddenly disappeared, becoming a wraith, and carried the Ring to the nazgul.

[Jon S.]

Excellent analysis, Gordis.

I know this is not the response you want to hear but the actual explanation may be story-external (Tolkien wanted the Fellowship to have an early, abortive, non-decisive encounter with the Nazgul).

[Butterbeer]

you know i never thought about that ... Saruman must see Narya ...and yet he does not lust nor desire one of the mighty three ...especially Narya?? ...

imagine ...

Narya combined with his power of voice???

wow!

with his own ring and will of adamant?



Personally - I don't doubt for a second he'd have even hesitated to have chopped Gandalf's finger off if he wanted to!

so... what then exactly did he hope to achieve by keeping him up there?

[Landroval]

so... what then exactly did he hope to achieve by keeping him up there?

According to the Council of Elrond:

Until you reveal to me where the One may be found. I may find means to persuade you. Or until it is found in your despite, and the Ruler has time to turn to lighter matters: to devise, say, a fitting reward for the hindrance and insolence of Gandalf the Grey

Plus, he figured that Gandalf couldn't escape from that height - ignoring the good faith of Radagast.

[Butterbeer]

ok ...

let me rephrase that then ...

what then exactly did he hope to achieve by keeping him up there?


and i'd like your own thoughts rather than mere research!

(best BB)

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I think, if malice were involved, it was not the desire to hurt his friends' feelings. Most likely it was Sauron's ORDER to the Nazgul to bring back not only the Ring, but also "Baggins", ALIVE or as a wraith.

Well, I agree with that. But that isn’t necessarily a bad decision. The bad decision happens when they allow Frodo to stay with the others (presumably due to malice, to allow them to watch him change into a wraith, at least according to this idea). Like I said, I don’t think this is a particularly good explanation either.

Originally Posted by Gordis

The Witch-King attacked Frodo with the Morgul Blade, ONLY when he saw Frodo's flaming sword from Barrow-Downs and recognized its danger.

I think the problem with this is that it would have been much safer for the Witch King to use his regular sword against Frodo. Of course, if your idea about the rings staying with killed holders is true, then that wasn’t an option.

Originally Posted by Gordis

I think, guarding the blades was the primary task the WK assigned to them, when sending the Wights from Angmar to inhabit the Barrows, back in TA 1640 or something...

That’s a very interesting thought, Gordis.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Of course, Frodo's companions should have taken the Ring from him, when he came too close to becoming a wraith. I always wondered why they let Frodo keep the Ring, while he was hovering on the border of wraithdom. He could have suddenly disappeared, becoming a wraith, and carried the Ring to the nazgul.

I agree. Considering the importance of the situation, Glorfindel, after he met the others, probably should have taken the Ring straight to Rivendell himself, and let Aragorn look after the Hobbits.

Originally Posted by Jon S.

I know this is not the response you want to hear but the actual explanation may be story-external (Tolkien wanted the Fellowship to have an early, abortive, non-decisive encounter with the Nazgul).

Yeah, that’s the right answer, I think. But, like you say, story-external.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

so... what then exactly did he hope to achieve by keeping him up there?

Maybe he was just waiting to see how things would play out. He knew (thought he knew) that he could take the ring from Gandalf whenever he wanted. Perhaps that wasn’t a line he wanted to cross until he knew it was the right thing to do.

[Butterbeer]

maybe...

obviously with the nine reported abroard and riding hell for leather in a supersonic strawberry strewn blur towards 'shire' and the one clearly vulnerable and unguarded .. i shouldn't doubt for a momment that Saruman thought he had all the time in the world...

clearly he has his concerns at this point...


at this point you really have to wonder, morally, if saurman of many colours and of the orc armies and the breeding of the Uruk-hai, and open lust for the ONE and the total domination of Middle earth can still really worry about 'the right thing to do' ...

best, BB

[CAB]

He had put himself into a hell of a spot (double-traitor). He absolutely had to worry about the right thing to do. I’m not suggesting that he thought he could hold off on a decision for years, but he held off long enough for Gandalf to escape. Oops.

[Butterbeer]

Not at this point - as Gandalf argues earlier - he still has choices - he is not yet between the rock and hard place with sauron till later ...

oops indeed

(little did saruman realise the effect he would have on subsequent Bond films and evil characters ...not to mention Dr Evil! )

[CAB]

Come on Butterbeer. That is exactly what I am saying. He has choices and is trying to make the best one.

[The Telcontarion]

Gordis

Your argument is without flaw, and will get no argument from me. Very insightful!!!

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by CAB

Come on Butterbeer. That is exactly what I am saying. He has choices and is trying to make the best one.

you mean, he, too, was waiting for the laser-mounted sea bass... i mean sharks???

El-tel , you gotta be joking right? The Professor is like MORIARTI ... she always leaves a chink in her armour .... this case though is more like a drafty Emmental cheese ...

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

at this point you really have to wonder, morally, if saurman of many colours and of the orc armies and the breeding of the Uruk-hai, and open lust for the ONE and the total domination of Middle earth can still really worry about 'the right thing to do' ...

I should have read this more carefully. I didn't mean the right thing to do in a moral sense, but in a right thing to do for Saurman personally sense.

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

you mean, he, too, was waiting for the laser-mounted sea bass... i mean sharks???

Did Gandalf have bad teeth and serious mojo?

[Butterbeer]

yeah baby!

so- Gor- does not dragging a ring from a finger like a street thief rather lack finesse?

I really fail to see any point here- either it is taken off or it is forcibly chopped off - who the flip tries to "pull it off" like an eager child????

Emmental i say!

(wotcha Gor! )

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

you know i never thought about that ... Saruman must see Narya ...and yet he does not lust nor desire one of the mighty three ...especially Narya?? ...

I would call it a plothole. The idea that Gandalf had Narya came very late: almost then all the story had been written. That is a story-external reason, of course.

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

Not at this point - as Gandalf argues earlier - he still has choices - he is not yet between the rock and hard place with sauron till later ..

. He still hoped to get the Ring himself. In UT it is said that Saruman didn't tell Sauron about the location of the Shire. So he hoped to go get the Ring, while the nazgul are having the recreation trip up and down Anduin. In UT it is said, that he revealed the location of the Shire to the nazgul, once Gandalf was gone. (and in another version it is told that he didn't tell anything to the nazgul even then, but sent them to hunt for Gandalf around Edoras.
The question is why hasn't he hurried to the Shire himself - too lazy? Sure he sent the squint-eyed Southerner, perhaps some other spies, but was it enough?

Originally Posted by CAB

I think the problem with this is that it would have been much safer for the Witch King to use his regular sword against Frodo. Of course, if your idea about the rings staying with killed holders is true, then that wasn’t an option.

It wasn't an option as well, IF Sauron ordered to bring "Baggins" back, alive or as a wraith. Even Sauron couldn't torture a dead hobbit and he couldn't return his soul once it had departed.

Originally Posted by BB

Emmental i say!

Neither of you have thought about the best counter-argument for my "carrying the Ring to Mandos" theory:

Bill Ferny: "'Morning, Longshanks! Off early? Found some friends at last?'
Strider: "Come here, buddy, I have a shiny present for you"
Strider hands Ferny the Ring.
Bill: 'Oh lovely...My Precious...'
Ferny puts the Ring on and disappears. Strider draws what remains of Narsil and hacks the empty space in front of him into pieces..
Strider: 'Now the Ring has left Middle Earth. The Quest is over.'
The End.

[Alcuin]

How many people lost or gave up Rings of Power in Tolkien’s tales? The MÃ*rdain of Ost-in-Edhil, particularly Celebrimbor; Thráin son of Thrór; Bilbo and Sam; Gollum; Déagol; Isildur; and of course, Sauron.

Gil-galad received two of the Three Rings from Celebrimbor, which he subsequently surrendered to others; the third was given to Galadriel (I think I remember) by Celebrimbor. Since Gil-galad died before the One Ring was taken from Sauron, we can probably assume that he did not presume to wear it; otherwise, Sauron would have been aware of his thoughts, plans, and of course, the military preparations and plans of the Last Alliance. Gil-galad gave one ring to Elrond, and the other to CÃ*rdan; CÃ*rdan in his turn gave the ring in his keeping to Gandalf, so perhaps he did not use it, either. However, it would seem that Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf all used their rings to one degree or another; but they never gave them up, and passed into the West with them.

So Gandalf’s statement that no one but Bilbo had ever given up a Ring of Power was likely correct in the sense that no one who had ever worn one ever willingly gave it up except Bilbo. A question remains about Frodo’s offer to Galadriel: it seems to have been genuine. In any case, even Frodo’s will collapsed in the Sammath Naur, and this is a good place to start.

Gollum found Frodo in the Sammath Naur despite his invisibility (was Gollum so far into the wraith world himself that he could see Frodo even with the Ring?), and was able to take the Ring from him by biting off his finger. Gollum lost the Ring, as we all know, by falling into a volcanic fissure.

Sam briefly bore the Ring and wore it; he gave it back to Frodo, however reluctantly, based largely upon his loyalty to Frodo and his “plain hobbit sense.�

The MÃ*rdain of Ost-in-Edhil were defeated by Sauron’s armies. Sauron apparently physically seized some Rings from them, how many we do not know. Celebrimbor was tortured to make him reveal the whereabouts of the Seven and the Nine, though he was able to resist telling Sauron where the Three were hidden. Sauron mounted his body on a pole and used it as a banner.

Likewise, Thráin son of Thrór was captured by Sauron and tortured to reveal his ring. (Why this was necessary is not explained: surely the last of the Seven was obvious to Sauron: was it not on his finger? And where on his person would Thráin hide it?) Of course, this brings up the fact that Thrór willingly gave his ring to Thráin before Thrór took Nár on his ill-fated journey to Moria; but the text says that Dwarves were resistant to many of the powers of the Rings, which only inflamed their greed; that leaves open the possibility that Dwarves had been passing along Rings of Power from one to another. Tolkien also says that some were consumed by dragons (and presumably destroyed that way), and Sauron obtained the rest, possibly much as he obtained Thráin’s ring.

Déagol was murdered by Sméagol, who took the Ring. Gollum subsequently lost the Ring when it slipped from his finger in the orc-tunnels under the Misty Mountains, where Bilbo found it.

Isildur was shot by an arrow. Whether he died from the shot or from drowning is probably not significant.

Sauron lost the Ring when Isildur cut it from his broken body. An interesting question might be: if Isildur had left the Ring on Sauron and his body was not destroyed, would he have revived?

Finally, the Ringwraiths gave up their rings to Sauron (whether he returned them later or not is probably not significant here) because Sauron demanded them, and they were unable to resist.

To summarize: Rings of Power were willingly passed from user to user only in the case of Dwarves and hobbits. We do not know if this was true of all Dwarves, but Thrór did willingly pass his Ring of Power to Thráin. Thráin was unwilling to give it to Sauron, but Sauron was able to take it using force, and perhaps torture was necessary, too; or maybe it just gave Sauron pleasure to torture one of Durin’s heirs.

Hobbits, but not all hobbits, sometimes willingly gave them up. (Gandalf suspected that hobbits would prove resistant to the effects of the Rings of Power; why, however, we are not told, as far as I know.) Specifically, Déagol, Sméagol, and eventually Frodo (he was strong and well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose lasted – at the last the dark power began to devour him) were unwilling to give up the One Ring. Bilbo and Sam were able to divest themselves of the Ring. Sauron tortured Gollum, who apparently saw him during the ordeal, and was able to obtain a great deal of information from him this way, but was unable to induce him to reveal all that he knew about the location of “Shire.�

Gil-galad and CÃ*rdan passed along a Ring of Power; but it is reasonably certain that Gil-galad never used one, and entirely possible that CÃ*rdan never used his, either. I argue that never using a Ring of Power probably means that it is easier for the guardian to give it up.

The Eldar of Eregion were willing to remove their Rings of Power and forego using them once they recognized Sauron’s trap, but they did not willingly surrender them – at least, not to Sauron. Celebrimbor was willing to transfer possession of the Three to others of the Eldar whom he respected. The Elves of Eregion were killed and/or tortured by Sauron to get the Rings they possessed.

Isildur lost the One Ring when he died. The same is essentially true for Sauron, although he was “merely� “disembodied,� as he had been when Númenor was destroyed.

None of the Nine Ringwraiths willingly surrendered a Ring of Power to anyone other than Sauron, whose demand they could not refuse.

Bottom Line: Killing and torture is an extremely effective method for obtaining a Ring of Power: specifically Sauron, Isildur, Déagol, Celebrimbor, the other MÃ*rdain, Thráin, Sméagol-Gollum, and basically Frodo, too – the One Ring was taken from him by violence.

Willingly divesting a Ring of Power was done by Dwarves, Hobbits, and Eldar.

The Ringwraiths gave their Rings to Sauron at some point, and may have received them back or not; but in either case, they had no will in the matter of giving their Rings to Sauron, and it basically made no difference to them.

(Sorry for the very long, wandering post.)