Abortion

I just LOVE the show "The West Wing".
How'bout calling this "The Entmoot Wing"...

...or "The Moot Wing".

The Moot Wing, I like it! En passant, Juntel es-tu francophone? J'ai remarque dans ton profil que tu demeures au Quebec... Moi, aussi, mais je suis anglo...

Montréalais, franco.
C'est toujours le fun de croiser un compatriote sur un board!

I think bmilder made it up:P
We all know he is capable of making websites, so this could just be made up:P

What does that mean???

Why do people like the West Wing so much?My brother watches that show every week. I saw it once, it's ok, but I don't think it's that good.

What's that French mean?

Je ne sais pas, dmaul97... je ne suis pas Quebecois, et resultement mon français n'est pas très bon. J'espère que les francophones dans Entmoot pourrais m'aider sur la langue

I agree with Ben TO A CERTAIN EXTENT. Everyone should have freedom to choose, but I feel that abortion is missrepresented in this country. People say that the Embryo and fetus are not baby's or even humans, but it's just not true (in my belief system.) Our Church believes, and I firmly agree, that as soon as the sperm enters the egg a new soul is born into this world. This soul begins its path to life AS WELL AS ITS SPIRITUAL PATH inside the womb. (Now, you can already see I'm going for the religious side of the argument, but quite frankly that's what this is all about. I'll go more into that if anyone dissagrees.)
Now, some people may disagree with this, that's there right, though it really hurts me, but there's so much more to be said for pro-life. Someone spoke against the argument that we weren't aborted, but I still think it's one of the most valid ones. Just think how many lives you have touched. If you're in a stage where you think you're worthless (you're not, but it happens to the best of us) think of a good person you know that has touched so many lives. This apply's for the bad as well, they always have a chance to change, and I believe everyone has effected the course of history positively (yes, even Hitler. He brought America to eventually look at itself differently, so some good comes out of all evil.) Even think of people like Mother Teresa (sp?). Now, image if these people were aborted. Imagine them never having lived, never having been there. Imagine all the voids that everyone has filled, when people just needed a friend, or someone to be there. No one can say that ANY life is worthless, and I firmly believe removing that life before it even had a chance to touch anyone is possibly the worst form of murder EVER. If there are any parents out there, I've often heard parents tell kids when the child thinks they don't matter, etc., that without them there would be something missing in that parents life. Though I'm not a parent I really believe this is true.
Now many people say what about rape, etc. Well, possibly the nicest child I know is adopted. As a matter of fact I know a number of adopted children, all of whose mothers were in possitions to abort them. These people are so wonderfull, and have such wonderfull parents. Some people say that baby's put up for adoption sometimes never are. This is true, and it's very sad. I know a number of people who've wanted to adopt at times and couldn't, despite over crowded orphinages (sp). The system is corrupt, but it could be fixed, it should be fixed. I know it can be made so that, even if ALL the children who are aborted were instead put up for adoption (I pray to God this happens) there would be a parent for each of them.
In short, everyone is a wonderfull human being, an individual. Taking them from the earth so early in life is such a sad, horrible thing. It really hurts me, I can't explain it in words. I'll talk more later, this is a topic I feel very passionately about, but I'm trying to stay calm, don't want an admin flamming

I'm to an extent pro-choice, BUT I am against abortion as it stands today because of the methods used... I don't have any links available right now but I've read all sorts of medical documents detailing the processes, and they are simply sickening. Plus, none of them are foolproof against preventing the death of the mother in the process.

It's the current impracticality that shifts my stance on abortion to a definite "NO."

This is unprecedented. I actually agree with Tater.

No Pro-Choice person can deny that the sperm and egg combined together is a human being. And, they can not deny that the process of abortion will kill the little human.(I used the word human because i was unaware of what term fit)

Think about what it's doing. You can't just kill someone because he/she can be dificult. Do you just kill your child because you lost a job and don't have a lot of money. Just because you can't see or hear it doesn't mean it's not alive. Abortions kill humans at their most vulnurable moment.

Well, I don't know about the other pro-choice people, but like I said, I'm not entirely for abortion. I don't deny that a fetus is an unborn human, and I'm not saying every baby liable to have a hard or poor childhood should be aborted. If you note the second word in the term pro-choice, you will see that it is "choice". My stance is that it is up to the mother. Are you going to walk up to an unhappy, teenage, hard-pressed mother, and tell her she has to keep her baby against her wishes? Of course, if she does want to keep it, are you going to tell her she has to abort? Nobody should be forced into a choice they don't want to make.

Now, about the killing of humans. I most certainly agree that an unborn baby is a human, and at a certain point I would no longer condone abortion. I'm no biological expert, but I think about fourth month, which is, I think, as far as Roe vs. Wade lets it go, is about the limit.

First to clarify the French, it had nothing to do with the topic. I just asked Juntel if s/he was a native French speaker, since I noticed in his/her profile that s/he comes form Quebec. Juntel replied that s/he is from Montreal and is indeed a French speaker... BTW, IP if you want help with your French, just ask, I studied to be a French teacher. (Didn't actually teach for very long, but that's another matter entirely.)

I migh as well tell you my stance. Personally, I don't think I could have an abortion. I believe that a fetus is human and wouldn't be able to kill one. BUT I believe that this is a personal decision that every woman must make for herself. I don't feel I have the right to make the choice for someone else, and I don't feel the government has the right to make the choice for anyone.

This is sort of off topic, but to Elanor and Tater, since in your religious beliefs, you state that the soul enters at conception, what happens to a fetus who is miscarried? What would your religion say about that particular soul? Just curious.

Jae, although it doesn't impact the topic too much, I'm sure you're joking about me finding some way to have a website of mine be stored at cnn.com (And if you actually view the articles, you'll see they're quite lengthy, and I don't have time to fabricate that kind of stuff )

I think TOR did a good job of explaining pro- choice. Republicans want to take away the choice. No matter what laws are passed, women are still going to have abortions. But it makes much more sense for them to legally get them in a clean doctor's office than on the street illegally. A law banning all abortions would fail just like Prohibition failed. But this time, instead of people going to illegal establishments to get drunk and have fun, women would have to circumvent the law and put their lives in danger by using an unqualified doctor in some remote area.

I agree with you Ben, but the fact remains that nobody is really qualified to perform an abortion, when it gets down to it...

Firstly, Eruve, I'm a *he*.

Now for those arguing from a religious point of view, I may respect to some extent your religiosity, but I just can't stand *christians* waving their bible in the air while these same scriptures very well describe their god as a slaugtherer; yes, this is from the old testament, and the *new* one is smoother, but then what? is it that the old god should be pardonned for his sins?

About this sentence: "No Pro-Choice person can deny that the sperm and egg combined together is a human being." Well, there lies all the question, isn't it? What is a human being? At what stage on conception does the fertilized egg becomes that sentient human individual? Who decides what is a sentient human individual who has rights?

One may decide to believe that this sentient human individual appears right at time zero of fertilization. Ok. But to want to impose that belief on a society, one must furnish some argument or proof of what is believed. Something substantial must be put forward so that people could righteously say to a 13 years old pregnant teenager that she will be a murderer if she aborts. It is one thing that your belief affects your life, but to make it affect others, especially regarding criminal law, the cloudy nature of belief must be made more down to earth. It must be backed up by clear proofs. It is to the accusers to prove the guilt of the accused in our society.

I am not among those that believe that a foetus is a human being only at birth; and as stated in my first post in this thread, I don't yet know the answer as to when exactly a foetus is a human being deserving full rights under the law.
But nobody yet has convinced me that a fertilized human egg, a single cell, is a human being, sentient and deserving protection as any human being.
After a few divisions, that cell can be artificially forced to divide so as to produce twins: so at fertilization, there is no individual as such. (For the religiously inclined, if the fertilized egg has a soul, and later the embryo divides to produce two embryos, so possible real twins, does the soul divide in two souls?...)
Some will also put forward that the foetus can react to stimuli, or even that some aborted foetuses emitted some *cry of pain* as they were aborted. Hey, I don't deny there is an entity there, something growing, evolving, reacting to the environment. Someone who is pro-choice doesn't believe there is only a piece of meat in there! But to qualify that this entity is a human being is a step that one must somehow prove.

But here's the itch: what would make any proof valid? A proof is not independant of a system of belief (ie some sort of *language*), in which it must live. So it is my belief that this question will never really be solved: it will only be decided, as some sort of dogma. Dogma from the pro-life. Or dogma from the pro-choice.

Basically, pro-lifers belive (correct me if i'm wrong) that humanness is inherent to the conceived entity, it is there right at the beginning.
Pro-choicers believe that humanness comes slowly as the entity grows and evolves in the womb, and that at a not well-known instance, has enough of this *humanness* to be protected by law.

The pro-lifers' certainty is backed (in most cases it seems) by scriptures, traditions, and of course good will (mostly i hope).
Pro-choicers' certainty can in the end only be vague; for it is the nature of freedom of choice to allow open doors. Where there is freedom of choice, there are many choices, many opinions to listen to; and even when the choice is made, doubts may survive.

To have choices is to take the risk of having doubts and regrets.

To have choices is to live free.

Let's not be afraid or ashamed to have doubts.

For we are free.

For now...

i think Tater has explained quite well my opinion on this topic, and juntel has resumed one of the very central points of this eternal discussion: if you belief there´s a human life since conception you´ll never understand somebody could have right to finish that life.

i think it isn´t only a matter of religious beliefs; a lot of people without defined religiousness agree that no human should decide to finish the life of another. every human is unique, his life is above the power of the others.

that´s the problem of this topic. we, pro-lifers, usually use words as "kill" or "murder", cuz we believe there´s a human life inside the mother´s womb. pro-choicers cannot bear with those terms cuz they don´t agree there´s a human life. since i also belief both sides are good willing, so i often encourage other pro-lifers not to use hard words against the mother nor saying "abortion is a murder". we´ll never agree, so we must bear it as well as we can.

having a child in "penurious circumstances" is often a very heroic decission and my opinion is that heroism isn´t exigible to everybody (call me pusillanimous if you want), but aborting is no way an easy take: not only for the surgical operation and its possible bad effects but for the psychic effects. abortion, though a free choice, is often a very traumatic choice.

i admit that pro-lifers are partially responsible of the traumatic consciousness of aborting, but they (we) aren´t 100% responsable: there´s something in thed nature of aborting that makes it traumatic. i guess a woman that firmly believes the embryo isn´t a human being won´t have traumatic regrets after aborting.

i think i can understand pro-choicers arguments and i respect them. several of you have agree about "pro-lifers shouldn´t abort but they should allow pro-choicers to take their free decision". Ben has called that the Democrat point of view. the problem for us pro-lifers is who should take such a decision. the mother? the embryo? the whole society? as i said, i believe no human has power over other human lifes so i don´t think the mother should take that choice. the society? perhaps those who are pro death penalty would support this option. i cannot.

so, although i can understand pro-choice view and i try to respect his conscience, if i could i´d pass a law to prevent abortion. pro-choicers would understand it´s not intolerance what makes me think so: it´s only that i think both lifes of the mother and of the embryo have the same dignity and none of them should decide about the life of the other.

... uhh that has been too long. now i don´t expect anybody will be able to read all that attentively

I remember seeing a tv movie, with andy garcia, called Swing Vote, dealing with abortion and the US Supreme Court.

You can find the details here.

I found it very good. I don't know if it's available on video in clubs. Both sides are treated, and although it ends leaning on the liberal side, the *pill* is hard to swallow for both sides. Nice movie. A bit overacting by garcia though.

Well, I promissed more, so here it is.

You have to realize all my views are based on my belief system, everyone's are. The belief system I have is categorized as a religion, but that is no reason to be prejudice about it, it is really not very different then anyone elses, because ultimately I believe what I see in my heart to be true.
In our Church we always pray for the souls of all aborted babies. I personally believe that any child who dies before having a chance to enter the world goes immediately into God's arms. I do not knwo what the Churche's view on this is, but I will try to find out. I want you to know that I am really reading the pro-choice posts and taking them to heart, thinking about them and reavaluating my own beliefs. I can tell you that they have not changesd, and though I doubt they will I am open. I ask everyone to please do this, pro-lifers and pro-choicers alike. This is what I would like everyone to think about: As I said before, I just imagine what it would be like if I or someone important to me were aborted. There's such a void that I know would be there. Tell me, do you know what I'm saying about the void? Cause I know I'd feel it, sometimes I do feel a void and I think "could someone have been there to fill it?" This really breaks my heart, so I'm gonna end this post here before I get to emotional.

As I said in post before, I do believe there is good will behind the pro-lifers stand on abortion. But for those among them who base themselves on religious grounds, I just can't ignore that their openeness can only be limited, for to be pro-choice would deny solid religious dogmas about the nature and goals of human life; thus, accepting the idea of the right to choose abortion may be tantamount to denying one's religion, or at least generate a great deal of stress among the community in which one lives.

As for asking oneself what one would feel thinking about if a loved one would have been aborted, well, the feeling one may have is no different as for asking what one would feel if that person was killed. It is giving a foetus the same feelings, experiences, personnality and sentience that a grown adult has. So this exercise is based no less than on taking as a given fact the idea that the foetus has as much rights as a grown adult. But this is exactly what the whole question is about. It's like taking the conclusion as the premise.

Now if I try to think about a loved one, and what my life would be if she/he hadn't been born, I may feel moody at first. But then I realize this feeling has more to do with an ingrained false sense of fatality, that only that person could be so important in my life, that it was written in the stars!.
Of course I don't believe so, after some thought. Had that person not been born, someone could have filled her/his shoes ( but this is something utterly impossible to know!, simply because that person is after all alive! An imponderable situation) and I wouldn't be hurt by her/his absence since that person doesn't exist (ie didn't grow into a human being).
In thinking about the foetus that this adult person was, and that the foetus was destroyed, I would be wrong to feel that it was the adult that was destroyed. Yes, the foetus didn't have the "chance" to grow into the adult, but then you wouldn't know the adult (it doesn't exist), so, no void. This conclusion is as valuable as the exercise for which it is an answer.

wow, I never knew Juntel was a he...

Just like when I used to think anduin was a he.


But for those among them who base themselves on religious grounds, I just can't ignore that their openeness can only be limited,..Juntel
I don't think anyone here said they were right because their religons said so. It seems that both sides can understand the others, but considers their opinion more right.
Just curious, what religion are you, if any??
you don't need to respond

I made a really long post about why God didn't sin in the process of killing people in the old testament.
Unforantately, I hit a wrong button on tehkeyboard and it was deleted.


Juntel, you have to cut down on Vocab words.:P

1) Religion? None. Agnostic (not atheist per se).

2) Do as I do when I want to make a long post: compose it in Notepad, then paste it in reply box; that way you are safe.

3) Two individuals made religion strongly a central point for their opinions, if not three.

4) I don't expect you to believe that your god sinned by having people (including suckling babies) killed in the o.e. I guess it has every right. Like a child crushing ants in a garden.

5) Keep up and learn the vocabulary. I'm french canadian, english is my second language, and I learned it. It is very helpfull; it is not there to impress, it is there to make more precise statements.
When I was young and reading Asimov and other authors with technical words, and later reading Tolkien, I was put face to face with tough words, and when I captured their meaning, the thoughts expressed by these authors seamed clearer than if they would have used many more simpler words.
I won't simplify my vocab at the cost of making ambiguous and cloudy statements.
Get used to it, my vocabulary is simple compared to what's out there in real life.

I'd like to clear up something juntel touched on earlier. Being against pro-choice is not, in my belief system, the same as being against freedom of religion. You see, it all comes back to what we believe. To me killing the foetus is the same as murder, so of course I want it outlawed, just as I don't want murder to be legal. Is being against murder being against a democratic society? No. However, not everyone here considers abortion murder, which is why the dissagreement arises.
Also, it was stated that the foetus is not the person that it groes into (not in those exact words, but that was the message.) This is simply illogical, i'm not trying to flame, it just is. How could it be that they were a different person? And when do you believe that the life enters them? It is only logical that life and (wether you believe in it or not) the soul are in the foetus.