Gays, lesbians, bisexuals, PART II

[Spock]

Here we go again.


This is a continuation of the original thread found at

http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...?t=6075&page=1



Last edited by Sister Golden Hair

[Spock]

In all honesty, none of the objections came through my computer while I was on yesterday (which was up until 1520hrs EST). Had I noted them, I would have yielded to the requests.



I carry twenty-three great wounds, all got in battle. Seventy-five men have I killed with my own hands in battle. I scatter, I burn my enemies' tents. I take away their flocks and herds. The Turks pay me a golden treasure, yet I am poor! Because *I* am a river to my people!

[Nurvingiel]

Thank you Spock! *hugs*

I think we were at a bit of a lull in the conversation at the end of the last thread.

Here is an interesting article from the Xtra West we can talk about if you guys want (but we don't have to). It's about the age of consent for youth with respect to gay and straight relationships.

I think that the age of consent for sex is determined by province. It also seems like it's defined seperately for different sexual acts (types of sex? ), specifically anal sex and vaginal sex or oral sex (basically, I guess not anal sex). Targeting anal sex seems like targeting gays. In some provinces the age of consent for anal sex is higher than other kinds.

I'm actually quite surprised Harper has started out with a bill on sex. I thought he'd take less risks launching his minority government (is he even sworn in yet?). But that's for the Canadian election thread. Or politics, since the election is over.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on the article? I think what they should be doing with the age of consent is making it the same for all sex. Sex is sex, it doesn't matter what goes where.

This attitude will also help dispel harmful attitutes about sex, like people thinking they're still virgins if they've only had oral sex. I think there should be an age of consent, but I don't think one type of sex should be treated differently than others because there isn't really a difference.

What do you guys think?

Or do you want to talk about something else?

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I think what they should be doing with the age of consent is making it the same for all sex. Sex is sex, it doesn't matter what goes where.

Same here. I'm sure Inked is going to have a lot of high-and-mighty, I'm-a-doctor-so-I-know-what-the -right-thing-to-do-is things to say about the age of homosexual consent, though. The age of sexual consent should be the same as it is for all sexual human beings. Isn't it eighteen? So there's where it should stay, for everyone, unless they are married (oooo, another can 'o worms!).

[inked]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Thank you Spock! *hugs*

Oh, yeah, sure. NOw it's back to non-inclusive language again!

Originally Posted by Nuvingiel

I think we were at a bit of a lull in the conversation at the end of the last thread.

Here is an interesting article from the Xtra West we can talk about if you guys want (but we don't have to). It's about the age of consent for youth with respect to gay and straight relationships.

I think that the age of consent for sex is determined by province. It also seems like it's defined seperately for different sexual acts (types of sex? ), specifically anal sex and vaginal sex or oral sex (basically, I guess not anal sex). Targeting anal sex seems like targeting gays. In some provinces the age of consent for anal sex is higher than other kinds.

I'm actually quite surprised Harper has started out with a bill on sex. I thought he'd take less risks launching his minority government (is he even sworn in yet?). But that's for the Canadian election thread. Or politics, since the election is over.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on the article? I think what they should be doing with the age of consent is making it the same for all sex. Sex is sex, it doesn't matter what goes where.

Not really, Nurv. It's rape by statue depending on location and age not volition.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

This attitude will also help dispel harmful attitutes about sex, like people thinking they're still virgins if they've only had oral sex. I think there should be an age of consent, but I don't think one type of sex should be treated differently than others because there isn't really a difference.

What do you guys think?

Or do you want to talk about something else?

And, no all sex is not created equal, Nurv. Oral does not equal anal does not equal vaginal - especially in risks regards. But since I know basically hetero data and we're not included in this thread, I'm not telling!

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by inked

Oh, yeah, sure. NOw it's back to non-inclusive language again!

You get mad? Even though nine or ten mooters made two pages of protest about the name change, and found it offensive, and requested it be changed back? Like 2/3 of the mooters who requested the original name to be reinstated are mooters who never even post here regularly! So, THANK YOU very much, Spock, for giving us back the original title of the thread! Very cool, very cool.

[BeardofPants]

The age of consent is 16 here. And I firmly think that the age of consent should be consistently the same across the board, regardless of whether it is vaginal or anal. ::shrug::
Oh, and Ink? Since I'm pretty sure that most people display tendencies of bisexuality, then we're covered under that. Seriously though, I'm not sure that a discussion of heterosexuality is appropriate in a thread about homosexuality. *shrug*

[Spock]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Oh, and Ink? Since I'm pretty sure that most people display tendencies of bisexuality, then we're covered under that.

Another deconstructionalist viewpoint not shared by all but understood by many.

I too agree with the age of consent; if they can drive at 16-as they can here- then perhaps that age should hold for sexual subjects too. Of course the argument is that they are still too young and should wait until 18, thus in keeping with the drinking and draft laws, has its supporters also. All in all a most troubling and difficult thing to lock down, IMO.

[The last sane person]

Hah, This thread kinda digressed into a "prove the other debator stupid thread", but for my two cents, I'm Bi as a Bicycle! Ta.

[inked]

Sense of humor on this thread? Nawwwwwwwww!

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by inked

Oh, yeah, sure. NOw it's back to non-inclusive language again!

Then email TinuvielChild about it. (I think you're kidding, which would be funny, but maybe you're not? Sometimes I don't get your sense of humour. )
If you're not kidding though, why don't we add something like this to the first post: This thread is to discuss any issues relating to lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, transsexual, intersex, two-spirit, gender queer, and questioning people.
ETA: This is actually the third incarnation of this thread. Just saying.

Originally Posted by inked

Not really, Nurv. It's rape by statue depending on location and age not volition.

Why would it be rape if both people are 17? Or one person is 19 and the other is 17? (And consenting, of course.) I think part of the issue here is why should the older member of a gay couple get accused of rape when this is not the case, when the same thing wouldn't happen to a straight couple? (I don't think that should happen to a straight couple either.)

Originally Posted by inked

And, no all sex is not created equal, Nurv. Oral does not equal anal does not equal vaginal - especially in risks regards. But since I know basically hetero data and we're not included in this thread, I'm not telling!

Physically equal, they aren't equal (as in "the same"). Incidentally, may I reiterate the need for condoms specifically designed for anal sex?
Equal in terms of consent though, like I said, sex is sex. WRT agreeing to have sex, which is what the age of consent is about, they are all equal.

[inked]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Then email TinuvielChild about it. (I think you're kidding, which would be funny, but maybe you're not? Sometimes I don't get your sense of humour. )
If you're not kidding though, why don't we add something like this to the first post: This thread is to discuss any issues relating to lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, transsexual, intersex, two-spirit, gender queer, and questioning people.
ETA: This is actually the third incarnation of this thread. Just saying.

Why would it be rape if both people are 17? Or one person is 19 and the other is 17? (And consenting, of course.) I think part of the issue here is why should the older member of a gay couple get accused of rape when this is not the case, when the same thing wouldn't happen to a straight couple? (I don't think that should happen to a straight couple either.)

Physically equal, they aren't equal (as in "the same"). Incidentally, may I reiterate the need for condoms specifically designed for anal sex?
Equal in terms of consent though, like I said, sex is sex. WRT agreeing to have sex, which is what the age of consent is about, they are all equal.

Nurv, I was kidding. I never dreamed the thread title would get changed or that there would be a revolt when it did! Really.

Rape is a legal definition of behavior. Hence it is defined by statute. It is not a matter of volition. E.g., the different states of the USA define sexual intercourse before specific ages as statutory rape because legally before the stated age a person is minor incapable of giving consent. This appears to be what is under discussion in Canada per your link. Notice that the concept is a legal definition. Give your lawmakers your input. It applies to partners of either sex consenting or not because it is legally defined that way.

You may choose to debate former President "Slick Willy" Clinton on the issue of what "is" sex legally. I just recall Jay Leno's monologue on that one: "Wasn't sex?! Wasn't sex?! If that had happened anywhere but Pennsylvania Avenue, he'd have found his vehicle upside down in the driveway and on fire, with every stitch of clothes he owned from one end of the street to the other."

Some animals are more equal than others. ANIMAL FARM, Geo. Orwell.

I'm glad you distinguish between various genital acts which constitute sex in the physical world and the need for various "safe" precautions in regard to those physical differences.

On the other hand, don't you mean "consent is consent" where you say "sex is sex"?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

over here in UK the age of consent for hetero and homo is 16, although for homo it was 21 for years, then 18, now both are the same - hetero was 16 for many millenia

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by inked

Nurv, I was kidding. I never dreamed the thread title would get changed or that there would be a revolt when it did! Really.

LOL Good to know we're on the same page then.

Originally Posted by inked

Rape is a legal definition of behavior. Hence it is defined by statute. It is not a matter of volition. E.g., the different states of the USA define sexual intercourse before specific ages as statutory rape because legally before the stated age a person is minor incapable of giving consent. This appears to be what is under discussion in Canada per your link. Notice that the concept is a legal definition. Give your lawmakers your input. It applies to partners of either sex consenting or not because it is legally defined that way.

I realise that two partners under the age of consent are not allowed to have sex. I don't know if that makes it rape in Canada (maybe it does). But who raped whom then?
My point is that the age of consent should apply to all forms of sex. This is a matter determined by the provinces, and in BC I believe this is already the case.

Originally Posted by inked

You may choose to debate former President "Slick Willy" Clinton on the issue of what "is" sex legally. I just recall Jay Leno's monologue on that one: "Wasn't sex?! Wasn't sex?! If that had happened anywhere but Pennsylvania Avenue, he'd have found his vehicle upside down in the driveway and on fire, with every stitch of clothes he owned from one end of the street to the other."

"Slick Willy"! Awesome. And Jay Leno is hilarious.

Dear Bill,
Yes, you did have sex with that woman. You're a Rhode Scholar for goodness sake.
Sincerely,
Nurv

Originally Posted by inked

Some animals are more equal than others. ANIMAL FARM, Geo. Orwell.

I read Animal Farm too, and are you sure you want to go there? The impression I got from that book was that the attitude "some are more equal than others" does apply to real life, but is still a bad attitude.
Do you think the pigs were entitled to live a life of ease in the house while poor Boxer was sent to the glue factory after years of hard work on the farm? I don't know what that has to do with sex though.

Originally Posted by inked

I'm glad you distinguish between various genital acts which constitute sex in the physical world and the need for various "safe" precautions in regard to those physical differences.

If anyone says we never agree on anything, they can just look at the above quote.
Maybe we should write letters to Trojan about those condoms.

I would say that something is safe if there is a minimal acceptable risk to the people involved. Of course, what is acceptable would be defined by the people involved, and that would be different for everyone to a certain degree. There would be some grey area, but maybe we could say that "safe" would be defined by society. For example

Originally Posted by inked

On the other hand, don't you mean "consent is consent" where you say "sex is sex"?

Consent isn't the same for everyone, which is the point of this law. The age of consent law exists to protect people who are not old enough to give consent to sex. This protects them from older people who might take advantage of them.

The question is what should that age be, and what kinds of sex should it be for.

Originally Posted by The last sane person

Hah, This thread kinda digressed into a "prove the other debator stupid thread", but for my two cents, I'm Bi as a Bicycle! Ta.

You are awesome TLSP.

I feel right now there's a good discussion in the thread, and I hope it keeps up. I don't want it to degenerate into "j00 r st00pid!" "z0mg shut up h4terzz!!!1", but I realise it has the potential to.

Mooters are too awesome for that though.

I'm still laughing at "Slick Willy". Hee.

[The last sane person]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

You are awesome TLSP.

I feel right now there's a good discussion in the thread, and I hope it keeps up. I don't want it to degenerate into "j00 r st00pid!" "z0mg shut up h4terzz!!!1", but I realise it has the potential to.

Mooters are too awesome for that though.

I'm still laughing at "Slick Willy". Hee.

I am glad you think so. I try to keep my sense of humor intact, if not pride and honor.

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

I've been debating whether to post on this thread or not for a while now and despite being scared by all the rhetoric being thrown around I've got a good story to tell so:

A few months ago in October I finally admitted to myself that I probably wasn't straight, and as soon as I got the chance, came out to my mother, who now has my undying admiration for being the most tolerant and supportive parent I could possibly wish for.

Her response to being told I'm bi was to say that yes, she had suspected this and that we are who we are and was there anyone (male or female) I was interested in?

Dad found out from mom and didn't say anything to me on the subject except that the same dating rules apply regardless of my parner's gender and that I should step carefully when dating anyone younger than 18 because if her parents didn't approve they could prosecute due to the age of consent laws.

Which means being patient for a few more months...

[Lotesse]

I just wanna say, Brava, bellissima, and you & your girlfriend are the bomb!! It takes a megaton of courage to out like that to parents. Lord knows I never have. Momma just thinks I'm bi-polar and traumatised from my step-dads and stuff; she probably wouldn't even take me seriously if I told her I was bi. Anyway, it doesn't really matter, as I have no woman lover in my life - just my boyfriend & my dearheart best girlfriend, who isn't a love interest THAT way. Lady M, you & your honey are the bomb!

[inked]

Nurv,

"I read Animal Farm too, and are you sure you want to go there? The impression I got from that book was that the attitude "some are more equal than others" does apply to real life, but is still a bad attitude.
Do you think the pigs were entitled to live a life of ease in the house while poor Boxer was sent to the glue factory after years of hard work on the farm? I don't know what that has to do with sex though. "

I'm just happy to have a chance to contribute to your on-going literary allusion recognition system (LARS). The ANIMAL FARM quotation was a reference to how Slick Willy employed his status as President. Like a pig in Animal Farm's social construct, he argued that he shouldn't be judged by the same standard as ordinary folk.

Better? It wasn't about sex at all. It was about the abuse of power. It was speaking truth to privilege. It was ...
.
.
.
.
.
.
social commentary.

[HOBBIT]

16 - Age of consent in NJ

Driver's License varies in every state. Here is NJ:
16- Learner's Permit (have to drive with licensed driver over 21 or something)
17 - Provisional License - can drive by yourself, but with several restrictions. cant driver after Midnight, cant take more than 1 non-related passenger, etc.
18 - FULL License
---------
19 - Can buy Cigarrettes at 19.. just raised from 18

21 - Can legally Drink
21- Can legally Gamble (like casinos, etc. you can buy lotto ticket at 18)
---------------------------------
17 - Can join military with parent permission
18 - Can join military.
------------------------------------------------------------

All these ages are NOT the same. And drinking and gambling is 21 in all states.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

I just wanna say, Brava, bellissima, and you & your girlfriend are the bomb!! It takes a megaton of courage to out like that to parents. Lord knows I never have. Momma just thinks I'm bi-polar and traumatised from my step-dads and stuff; she probably wouldn't even take me seriously if I told her I was bi. Anyway, it doesn't really matter, as I have no woman lover in my life - just my boyfriend & my dearheart best girlfriend, who isn't a love interest THAT way. Lady M, you & your honey are the bomb!

I'm sorry you can't tell your Mom. That must be really frustrating. One of my friends will never, ever tell his parents he's gay. They would probably not be very supportive.

Lady Marion Magdalena, I'm so glad your mom is so supportive of you! It still took a great deal of courage to tell her, you can never know how people react. I'm glad it worked out.

Originally Posted by The last sane person

I am glad you think so. I try to keep my sense of humor intact, if not pride and honor.

I'm sure you keep your pride and honour too.

edit: That makes a lot more sense Inked.