Were the Valar “demoted” at the end of the Second Age?

[CAB]

Then Manwe upon the Mountain called upon Iluvatar, and for that time the Valar laid down their government of Arda. -Akallabeth, The Silmarillion

I have often wondered what exactly was meant by this passage concerning the changing of the world at the end of the Second Age. Recently I have developed a theory. Maybe it means that the Valar were “demoted” by Eru.

If the Valar’s task was to guide and protect the Children of Iluvatar, they did a pretty lousy job. The story of Elves and Men is filled with hatred, war, and suffering, much of which can be attributed directly to the Valar and much of which (no, not all) they could have prevented.
The Valar had made mistakes on top of mistakes. They were perhaps too interested in their own happiness and definitely didn’t understand Elves and Men.

When they realized that the Numenoreans were going to attack them (due to the influence of one of their own people, no less) they should have appreciated the magnitude of the situation. They could have sent an ambassador such as Eonwe to speak with the Numenoreans and perhaps counteract Sauron. Or (heaven forbid) one of the Valar could have left to comfort of Valinor and gone themselves. What did the Valar see fit to send? Threatening weather and cloud formations, nice choice.

The Valar’s decision to fence themselves (and apparently many of the most beautiful things in the world) in the West and then ban the Numenoreans from visiting and then failing to take proper action when troubles arose, caused Eru to have to destroy thousands of his Children. Maybe this was the final straw. He then removed the temptation of Valinor from the Earth and let the Valar live their own lives without so much responsibility for the state of Middle Earth. A responsibility they had never really lived up to anyway.

[Gordis]

Very interesting, CAB.

I have little to say, because I agree with you.
Of course, the Valar did send the Istari...

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Of course, the Valar did send the Istari...

Yes, this is why I said demoted instead of fired, which was actually my first thought. It is also pretty clear that they got Eru’s permission to send them. Maybe before the Third Age they could have acted without asking first.

[Butterbeer]

go see my new theory in the ban of the valar thread ...

essentially discussing whether the valar were in fact, only one lazy fat man, a wiazrd of oz style character with bad breath and a fear of the common cold and who hated garlic??

...or ...

(will get back to you on this when i have some time - just having a quick look around now- while i have a mo - as i wait for someone to turn up to pick up a camera)

best, BB

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by CAB

When they realized that the Numenoreans were going to attack them (due to the influence of one of their own people, no less) they should have appreciated the magnitude of the situation. They could have sent an ambassador such as Eonwe to speak with the Numenoreans and perhaps counteract Sauron. Or (heaven forbid) one of the Valar could have left to comfort of Valinor and gone themselves. What did the Valar see fit to send? Threatening weather and cloud formations, nice choice.

Do you not think they made the right choice? After they told Eru he killed the Numenorean army.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Do you not think they made the right choice? After they told Eru he killed the Numenorean army.

Nay, he killed all the population of the island, newborn babies included.

And really, TD, don't you think that Ulmo and Tulkas and Osse couldn't deal with the Fleet themselves? They were Valar!

I think, the Valar really didn't want to harm Numenoreans, they recognised their own failure and just didn't know what to do. Basically they resigned the Rule of Arda.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think that Manwe felt that killing the Children of Eru was something he could not do without consulting Eru. It would have been like the Valar killing the elves.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

And really, TD, don't you think that Ulmo and Tulkas and Osse couldn't deal with the Fleet themselves? They were Valar!

I think, the Valar really didn't want to harm Numenoreans, they recognised their own failure and just didn't know what to do. Basically they resigned the Rule of Arda.

I doubt the Valar wanted to act directly against the Númenoreans, because then the blame of the destruction of the fleet and Númenor would squarely fall on the Valar, no doubt driving the rest of Men directly into Sauron's arms.

It could be that the Valar did recognise their own fault in the disaster and knew that an even bigger mess could be made in trying to set it right again. They may have asked Eru in that light to be taken off the case. Or Eru may have told them himself that he was tired of their screwing up and that Arda was better off without their interfering.

And who knows, it may very well have been the idea from the start that Arda at one point would have to do without stewards, like a child that comes of age and doesn't require the help from his guardian any longer. Although I doubt it was planned to be in such a situation.

[Landroval]

They could have sent an ambassador such as Eonwe to speak with the Numenoreans and perhaps counteract Sauron.

They did send ambasadors, trying to quiet things down.

He then removed the temptation of Valinor from the Earth and let the Valar live their own lives without so much responsibility for the state of Middle Earth. A responsibility they had never really lived up to anyway.

In Myths Transformed, the primary task of (at least) Manwe is to counteract Melkor - which he did with greatest wisdom. As for the rest of the problems of Eru's children, the valar aren't supposed to cross their free will; and free will has consequences.

Nay, he killed all the population of the island, newborn babies included.

Those who landed were burried in the caves of the forgottern; the rest of the fleet was drowned. As for those on Numenor, I doubt any of them could have straightened, due to the deep corruption there.

I think, the Valar really didn't want to harm Numenoreans, they recognised their own failure and just didn't know what to do. Basically they resigned the Rule of Arda.

In letter #131, Tolkien states that the numenoreans could have ruined Valinor at that time.

I doubt the Valar wanted to act directly against the Númenoreans, because then the blame of the destruction of the fleet and Númenor would squarely fall on the Valar, no doubt driving the rest of Men directly into Sauron's arms.

I wouldn't see the logic; if you are attacked in our own home, you have the right to defend yourself. As stated in the Akallabeth, the main target of the numenoreans was actually the presence of the valar (the only thing that granted the holy land its immortality) - what were the valar supposed to do, surrender to the numenoreans?

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Landroval

I wouldn't see the logic; if you are attacked in our own home, you have the right to defend yourself. As stated in the Akallabeth, the main target of the numenoreans was actually the presence of the valar (the only thing that granted the holy land its immortality) - what were the valar supposed to do, surrender to the numenoreans?

I wonder whether the Númenoreans really could have done something to the Valar, they could have destroyed Valinor maybe, but I sort of doubt whether they'd be able to put a hand on the Valar. Fingolfin managed to wound Morgoth severly, but the rest of the Valar had, I think, invested less energy in their corporal form.

Also, I never said anything about surrendering, I just gave my idea about why the Valar called on Eru and didn't act directly themselves against Númenor.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Landroval

They did send ambasadors, trying to quiet things down.

Yes, they sent some Elves as ambassadors about a thousand years before the Downfall. Shouldn’t they have considered sending someone a little more influential later when the situation became so bad that the King’s chief counselor was Sauron and he was considering attacking Valinor?

Originally Posted by Landroval

In Myths Transformed, the primary task of (at least) Manwe is to counteract Melkor - which he did with greatest wisdom. As for the rest of the problems of Eru's children, the valar aren't supposed to cross their free will; and free will has consequences.

Free will has consequences. The Valar also possessed free will and used it to make some awful decisions. If they had acted more wisely, the Numenoreans wouldn’t have been tempted to try and take Valinor (which shouldn’t have existed as it did anyway) and so bring about their own destruction.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Those who landed were burried in the caves of the forgottern; the rest of the fleet was drowned. As for those on Numenor, I doubt any of them could have straightened, due to the deep corruption there.

Gandalf, who seems to have been one of Eru’s more loyal servants, believed that even Gollum could be redeemed. Surely not everyone on Numenor was at a lower point than he was. I think Eru’s hand was forced (at least as much as you can ever force God’s hand). The Valar had to take much of the blame for the situation.

Originally Posted by Landroval

In letter #131, Tolkien states that the numenoreans could have ruined Valinor at that time.

I wouldn't see the logic; if you are attacked in our own home, you have the right to defend yourself. As stated in the Akallabeth, the main target of the numenoreans was actually the presence of the valar (the only thing that granted the holy land its immortality) - what were the valar supposed to do, surrender to the numenoreans?

The point isn’t that the Numenoreans should be spared or allowed to take Valinor. The point is that the Valar should have never let things progress to this point. To do so was extremely negligent.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I doubt the Valar wanted to act directly against the Númenoreans, because then the blame of the destruction of the fleet and Númenor would squarely fall on the Valar, no doubt driving the rest of Men directly into Sauron's arms.

It could be that the Valar did recognise their own fault in the disaster and knew that an even bigger mess could be made in trying to set it right again. They may have asked Eru in that light to be taken off the case. Or Eru may have told them himself that he was tired of their screwing up and that Arda was better off without their interfering.

And who knows, it may very well have been the idea from the start that Arda at one point would have to do without stewards, like a child that comes of age and doesn't require the help from his guardian any longer. Although I doubt it was planned to be in such a situation.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I wonder whether the Númenoreans really could have done something to the Valar, they could have destroyed Valinor maybe, but I sort of doubt whether they'd be able to put a hand on the Valar. Fingolfin managed to wound Morgoth severly, but the rest of the Valar had, I think, invested less energy in their corporal form.

I think I would pretty much agree with everything you are saying except the Valar’s reason for not destroying the Numenoreans themselves. I would guess that this was simply too big of a step for them to take without Eru’s involvement. I don’t mean the other things such as the destruction of Numenor itself and the removal of Valinor, which were probably Eru’s ideas. I mean that killing thousands of Men was something that had to be approved by Eru. Of course, in this case he approved and handled the job himself.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by CAB

I think I would pretty much agree with everything you are saying except the Valar’s reason for not destroying the Numenoreans themselves. I would guess that this was simply too big of a step for them to take without Eru’s involvement. I don’t mean the other things such as the destruction of Numenor itself and the removal of Valinor, which were probably Eru’s ideas. I mean that killing thousands of Men was something that had to be approved by Eru. Of course, in this case he approved and handled the job himself.

*nods*

That reasoning makes a lot of sense. But I don't think the reasons you and I posted have to be mutually exclusive.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

But I don't think the reasons you and I posted have to be mutually exclusive.

I would agree with you here. However, I don’t think that the Valar were particularly concerned about who got the blame. The Men of Middle Earth wouldn’t have any first hand knowledge of the events, and so would probably believe any reasonable (to them) explanation they were given. In this case, that explanation would almost surely come from Sauron, who of course had no problem with telling lies. He may have said that the Valar did it, Melkor, himself, or given another reason.

If the Valar assumed that Sauron wouldn’t take shape again after the Downfall, the question still would have been open to speculation among the Men of Middle Earth. I doubt the Valar sent any emissaries to explain what happened.

The surviving Numenoreans may have suspected the truth immediately, or maybe not. I think it is unlikely they knew exactly what the Valar were and were not capable of. If he acted cleverly, as he had in the past, Sauron probably could have influenced the Numenoreans' belief about what actually happened, at least for a while. Once they realized (which probably took some years) that Valinor was gone and the Earth was round, the Numenoreans probably knew that this was beyond the Valar’s power.

Not that you said anything contrary to this Earniel, but the Valar had to receive much of the blame, whether they actually destroyed the Numenoreans by their own hands or not.

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I wonder whether the Númenoreans really could have done something to the Valar, they could have destroyed Valinor maybe, but I sort of doubt whether they'd be able to put a hand on the Valar. Fingolfin managed to wound Morgoth severly, but the rest of the Valar had, I think, invested less energy in their corporal form.

Also, I never said anything about surrendering, I just gave my idea about why the Valar called on Eru and didn't act directly themselves against Númenor.

I didn't say they would harm the valar; just that the valar had all the necessary rights to destroy the numenoreans.

Yes, they sent some Elves as ambassadors about a thousand years before the Downfall. Shouldn’t they have considered sending someone a little more influential later when the situation became so bad that the King’s chief counselor was Sauron and he was considering attacking Valinor?

I don't know why you presume they are elves; in HOME XII, History of Akallabeth, they are capitalised (Messengers). Either way, the valar know what is "wrong and disastrous" for them: to force lesser wills by awe(letter #156). If the numenoreans wanted their way, they could have it, up to a point.

The Valar also possessed free will and used it to make some awful decisions. If they had acted more wisely, the Numenoreans wouldn’t have been tempted to try and take Valinor (which shouldn’t have existed as it did anyway) and so bring about their own destruction.

In both Osanwe-kenta and Akallabeth, Manwe is described as the spirit of greatest wisdom - I doubt anyone else in his place (including us ) could have made better choices. [Also, according to Atrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, it is stated that "the designs of Eru...governed all the operations of the faithfull valar".]

Gandalf, who seems to have been one of Eru’s more loyal servants, believed that even Gollum could be redeemed.

Hope without guarantees is a pre-requisite for all faithfulls . [Then again, Gollum definitely still had a good side and, moreover, hobbits could resist Sauron's corruption far better than Men.]

I would guess that this was simply too big of a step for them to take without Eru’s involvement.

I wouldn't say so; they condemned a far higher race (the returning noldor) to a cruel fate (perhaps even crueler), when they cursed them - and the elves are more closer to the valar (and perhaps Eru too) than Men are.

Once they realized (which probably took some years) that Valinor was gone and the Earth was round, the Numenoreans probably knew that this was beyond the Valar’s power.

Why couldn't they? It was the valar who shaped Arda as it was (and this they did while opposing Melkor).

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Landroval

I didn't say they would harm the valar; just that the valar had all the necessary rights to destroy the numenoreans.

The fleet, Landroval, the fleet.
The destruction of Numenor itself was a crime against humanity - I agree wity Crazy Squirrel in that.

Originally Posted by Landroval

In both Osanwe-kenta and Akallabeth, Manwe is described as the spirit of greatest wisdom - I doubt anyone else in his place (including us ) could have made better choices.

Manwe had his faults that proved fatal for humans:

- Manwë must be shown to have his own inherent fault (though not sin): he has become engrossed (partly out of sheer fear of Melkor, partly out of desire to control him) in amendment, healing, re-ordering — even 'keeping the status quo' — to the loss of all creative power and even to weakness in dealing with difficult and perilous situations. -Myths transformed

Originally Posted by Landroval

Then again, Gollum definitely still had a good side and, moreover, hobbits could resist Sauron's corruption far better than Men.

And children and women left in Numenor had no good sides? And horses and dogs and chickens? Also 100% evil?

I wouldn't say so; they condemned a far higher race (the returning noldor) to a cruel fate (perhaps even crueler), when they cursed them - and the elves are more closer to the valar (and perhaps Eru too) than Men are.

Eves are not higher race, they are different race. Yes, closer to Ainur, because they were also bound to Arda. So, they shared the same faults.
The Noldor cursed themselves by swearing am impossible Oath by the name of Eru. Mandos merely prophesized, not cursed, strictly speaking.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Landroval

I don't know why you presume they are elves; in HOME XII, History of Akallabeth, they are capitalised (Messengers).

In Akallabeth, when speaking to the King about the different fates of Elves and Men the messengers say: “Which of us therefore should envy the others?” That isn’t the more important part though. The more important part is that this took place about a thousand years before the Downfall. This is a long time even in “Tolkien years”.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Either way, the valar know what is "wrong and disastrous" for them: to force lesser wills by awe(letter #156). If the numenoreans wanted their way, they could have it, up to a point.

They were already being forced into something “wrong and disastrous” by (partially at least) awe of Sauron. The Valar stood back and did practically nothing and the results could hardly have been worse.

Originally Posted by Landroval

In both Osanwe-kenta and Akallabeth, Manwe is described as the spirit of greatest wisdom - I doubt anyone else in his place (including us ) could have made better choices. [Also, according to Atrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, it is stated that "the designs of Eru...governed all the operations of the faithfull valar".]

I can see your point of view here. Who are we to second guess Manwe or any of the Valar? But it is quite clear that many of their decisions had disastrous results. Manwe is also said to be unable to comprehend evil. How well can someone with no understanding of evil effectively govern a world that is so filled with it? I think all the bloodshed and suffering, mostly due to the tremendous influence that Melkor and Sauron were allowed to have (at least allowed after the Music, I don’t imagine that Manwe could have done much about this initial influence) gives us the answer.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Why couldn't they? It was the valar who shaped Arda as it was (and this they did while opposing Melkor).

You could be right here. I personally think that the removal of Valinor and the making of the Earth round were beyond the Valar’s capabilities while the destruction of Numenor probably wasn’t.

I would like to ask you a question Landroval. I hope you don’t think I’m getting smart with you, that isn’t my intention. I am interested in your opinion. You have argued that the Valar had a sufficient reason, the right, and the ability to destroy the Numenorean fleet and Numenor itself. Why do you think that they called on Eru? What do you think is meant by “laid down their government”?

Originally Posted by Gordis

The Noldor cursed themselves by swearing am impossible Oath by the name of Eru. Mandos merely prophesized, not cursed, strictly speaking.

Yes, I agree with that. I was recently reading an old thread about the Dead Men of Dunharrow. Someone made the same point there. It is the oath that allows the curse (or prophesy).

[Landroval]

The destruction of Numenor itself was a crime against humanity - I agree wity Crazy Squirrel in that.

On one hand, "of all His designs the issue must be for His Children's joy", cf Atrabeth; on the other, everything that is born out of a cat will eat mice - those numenoreans would have resorted to opressing Middle-Earth sooner or later, and when I say oppressing I mean not just enslaving, but torturing and sacrificing people to Melkor (heck, they even killed each other in madness).

Eves are not higher race, they are different race

"The Elves represent, as it were, the artistic, aesthetic, and purely scientific aspects of the Humane nature raised to a higher level than is actually seen in Men. They also possess a 'subcreational' or artistic faculty of great excellence" cf Letter #181.

The Noldor cursed themselves by swearing am impossible Oath by the name of Eru. Mandos merely prophesized, not cursed, strictly speaking.

Only Feanor and his sons swore the oath and only a part of the Curse reffered to them specifically. For the rest of the exiled they were cursed because they spilled blood, for which they will render blood. Not to mention that after the war of wrath, "the curse was laid to rest".

In Akallabeth, when speaking to the King about the different fates of Elves and Men the messengers say: “Which of us therefore should envy the others?”

True, but in Silmarillion, it is also stated that "Death is their fate, the gift of Iluvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy" - those messengers could be maiar, if you ask me.

The more important part is that this took place about a thousand years before the Downfall.

And it didn't achieve anything - things kept getting worse.("But Atanamir was ill pleased with the counsel of the Messengers and gave little heed to it, and the greater part of his people followed him; for they wished still to escape death in their own day, not waiting upon hope.") What would the valar get if they kept insisting or if they threatened more openly than they did? It was a lost case.

They were already being forced into something “wrong and disastrous” by (partially at least) awe of Sauron. The Valar stood back and did practically nothing and the results could hardly have been worse.

I don't think that the name of the game is "do things right or I will slap your hand". The valar had a limited role in governing Ea, they weren't its absolute masters and the Men (and their purpose) is definitely less scrutinable to them than the elves are (who, even they, are "things other than themselves").

How well can someone with no understanding of evil effectively govern a world that is so filled with it?

Then again, the real question is what is the only prerequisite?

Originally Posted by Osanwe Kenta

(Can hate overcome hate?) Nay, Manwe was wiser; or being ever open to Eru he did His will, which is more than wisdom

I think all the bloodshed and suffering, mostly due to the tremendous influence that Melkor and Sauron were allowed to have (at least allowed after the Music, I don’t imagine that Manwe could have done much about this initial influence) gives us the answer.

I like the explanation given in BoLT for all of Melkor's evil:
Thou Melko shalt see that no theme can be played save it come in the end of Ilúvatar's self, nor can any alter the music in Ilúvatar's despite. He that attempts this finds himself in the end but aiding me in devising a thing of still greater grandeur and more complex wonder: -- for lo! Through Melko have terror as fire, and sorrow like dark waters, wrath like thunder, and evil as far from my light as the depths of the uttermost of the dark places, come into the design that I laid before you. Through him has pain and misery been made in the clash of overwhelming musics; and with confusion of sound have cruelty, and ravening, and darkness, loathly mire and all putrescence of thought or thing, foul mists and violent flame, cold without mercy, been born, and death without hope. Yet is this through him and not by him; and he shall see, and ye all likewise, and even shall those beings, who must now dwell among his evil and endure through Melko misery and sorrow, terror and wickedness, declare in the end that it redoundeth only to my great glory, and doth but make the theme more worth the hearing, Life more worth the living, and the World so much the more wonderful and marvellous, that of all the deeds of Ilúvatar it shall be called his mightiest and his loveliest.

Why do you think that they called on Eru? What do you think is meant by “laid down their government”?

There was a "real peril (since the Numenoreans directed by Sauron could have wrought ruin in Valinor itself)", cf Letter #131; I find that explanation satisfactory; when two elephants roll, the grass gets beaten .

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Landroval

everything that is born out of a cat will eat mice ).

You mean they were genetically corrupted? I will never believe it. It just doesn't happen.

Originally Posted by Landroval

- those numenoreans would have resorted to opressing Middle-Earth sooner or later, and when I say oppressing I mean not just enslaving, but torturing and sacrificing people to Melkor (heck, they even killed each other in madness).

In MADNESS, most likely caused by Sauron's influence. They did everything he told them to do: sacrificing people on the Black altars etc. and still the promised immortality was not obtained. It is enough to get mad.

"The Elves represent, as it were, the artistic, aesthetic, and purely scientific aspects of the Humane nature raised to a higher level than is actually seen in Men. They also possess a 'subcreational' or artistic faculty of great excellence" cf Letter #181.

Yes one hyperinflated side of human nature. Does it make them higher race?

Originally Posted by Landroval

And it didn't achieve anything - things kept getting worse.("But Atanamir was ill pleased with the counsel of the Messengers and gave little heed to it, and the greater part of his people followed him; for they wished still to escape death in their own day, not waiting upon hope.") What would the valar get if they kept insisting or if they threatened more openly than they did? It was a lost case.

As I said, they could have lifted the Ban, at least issuing some "tourist visas". The humans would have seen soon enough that there was no immortality in Valinor. Or, PERHAPS there was? Perhaps the Valar lied, and Sauron was right? Men never found out.

Originally Posted by Landroval

There was a "real peril (since the Numenoreans directed by Sauron could have wrought ruin in Valinor itself)", cf Letter #131; I find that explanation satisfactory; when two elephants roll, the grass gets beaten .

Yes, don't you DARE touch our green lawns!

[CAB]

I can’t agree with your viewpoint concerning the Valar Landroval. They aren’t God, that position is held by Eru. If they aren’t God, then they are fallible. In my opinion, the spirit of the quote you gave, concerning Melkor’s deeds serving Eru’s will in the end, would very easily apply to the Valar with a few changes. Of course they didn’t purposely oppose Eru’s will, but their mistakes were much like Melkor’s evil. Both were “evil yet good to have been”.

[Landroval]

You mean they were genetically corrupted? I will never believe it. It just doesn't happen.

I don't know if we can say 'genetically'. But all Men fell when they followed Melkor, and their fall will last till the end of time, when Eru will remove all marring. The same with the numenoreans who chose to follow Sauron; this is even called in Letter #131 the Second Fall of Men - a fall as undoable as the first one.

In MADNESS, most likely caused by Sauron's influence. They did everything he told them to do: sacrificing people on the Black altars etc. and still the promised immortality was not obtained. It is enough to get mad.

You sound almost apologetical

Yes one hyperinflated side of human nature. Does it make them higher race?

They are less influenced by Melkor's marring, have higher control over their urges, they are more chaste (sp), etc.

As I said, they could have lifted the Ban, at least issuing some "tourist visas".

One cannot say if the ones in Aman are 'deathless' unless one witnesses their life span; for a Man to witness that would mean a crossing of Eru's rules.

The humans would have seen soon enough that there was no immortality in Valinor.

True, no immortality for the elves, only a very long life span/

Perhaps the Valar lied, and Sauron was right? Men never found out.

In Myths Transformed, the condition of a Man who lives in Aman beyond his life span is described as one of a beast.

Yes, don't you DARE touch our green lawns!

Care to rephrase...

Of course they didn’t purposely oppose Eru’s will, but their mistakes were much like Melkor’s evil.

'And of the counsels of Manwe's heart what tale shall tell?'
I don't see how one could equate mistakes with evil. No action can be a mistake in itself - it becomes so only in relation with the outer-world. Yet what defines an action as evil is its intentions and nothing else.

Originally Posted by Notes on motives in the Silmarillion, Myths Transformed

If we dare to attempt to enter the mind of the Elder King, assigning motives and finding faults, there are things to remember before we deliver a judgement. Manwe was the spirit of greatest wisdom and prudence in Arda. He is represented as having had the greatest knowledge of the Music, as a whole, possessed by any one finite mind; and he alone of all persons or minds in that time is represented as having the power of direct recourse to and communication with Eru. He must have grasped with great clarity what even we may perceive dimly: that it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come. One especial aspect of this is the strange way in which the evils of the Marrer, or his inheritors, are turned into weapons against evil.