Were the Nazgul free from Sauron for the most part of the Third Age? - Page 4

Telcontar_Dunedain · 05-29-2005, 05:14 PM

It is possible, though I always thouht of him as a Black Numenorean.

Gordis · 05-29-2005, 05:18 PM

Actually isn't it STRANGE that Sauron left 7 of the nazgul live in Minas Morgul? He could have used one as lieutenant of BaradDur, another a lieutenant of Morannon, a third in charge of Cirith Ungol, a fourth in command of Nurn region... you get the picture. But no. Cirith Ungol fortress was even given to an ORC! Why?

Last Child of Ungoliant · 05-29-2005, 05:25 PM

keep all the rats in one trap?

CrazySquirrel · 05-31-2005, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

keep all the rats in one trap?

So you believe Sauron still didn't trust the nazgul?
But why then he trusted Khamul?

CrazySquirrel · 05-31-2005, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gordis

The company in Minas Morgul must have been mixed (some were with their Rings and some without). Thousand years have passed. Sauron seemed to have forgotten about "his" nazgul. And the nazgul must have forgotten that their ringless comrades were a potential threat to the others. These ringless nazgul must have been crucial for Sauron when he returned to Mordor.

But why has the Witchy allowed the ringless nazgul in Minas Morgul in the first place? Out of kindness?

Last Child of Ungoliant · 05-31-2005, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

So you believe Sauron still didn't trust the nazgul?
But why then he trusted Khamul?

nope, i dont believe sauron trusted the nazgul, ever do the deceivers fear to be deceived!

and maybe, when sauron went into the east for hundreds of years, khamul was already worshipping sauron as a god out there wehn he was still human, and so that would make khamul the most trustable of all the nazgul, but sauron had to let 'tar-ciryatan' (

) be the chief because he had the greater powers?

Gordis · 05-31-2005, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

nope, i dont believe sauron trusted the nazgul, ever do the deceivers fear to be deceived!

Quite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

and maybe, when sauron went into the east for hundreds of years, khamul was already worshipping sauron as a god out there wehn he was still human, and so that would make khamul the most trustable of all the nazgul, but sauron had to let 'tar-ciryatan' (

) be the chief because he had the greater powers?

You mean in the Second age? Perhaps it was wiser for Sau to trust an Easterling more than a Numenorean.

But if you believe that the nazgul were cheating Sauron and were not too eager to get the Ring, than Khamul was in it as well as the WK!

Gordis · 05-31-2005, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

But why has the Witchy allowed the ringless nazgul in Minas Morgul in the first place? Out of kindness?

May be that. Just couldn't turn down the old buddies?

Last Child of Ungoliant · 05-31-2005, 04:57 PM

keep your friends close, your enemies closer, and your enemies pretending to be your friends closest,

CrazySquirrel · 06-09-2005, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gordis

But if you believe that the nazgul were cheating Sauron and were not too eager to get the Ring, than Khamul was in it as well as the WK!

Exactly, so the Dol guldur position was hardly a reward (as TD suggested)

Olmer · 06-09-2005, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

keep your friends close, your enemies closer, and your enemies pretending to be your friends closest,

Very appropriate proverb! And in tune with the Elves politics.

I already had my POW about strangeness of the attacks on Lothlorien. Now I have a thought that probably all this attacks was ochestrated by Nazgul with the elve's agreement and without Sauron's direct management.

Gordis · 06-09-2005, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

Exactly, so the Dol guldur position was hardly a reward (as TD suggested)

It is possible that Khamul helped Sauron to get WK's ring, and was rewarded by a position at Dol Guldur. But if he did, that was not by his own volition, but because of Sauron's order transmitted through his ring. The WK must have understood that and I doubt that he held it against Khamul.

So Khamul could still help the WK in the Shire against Sauron.

Gordis · 06-09-2005, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olmer

Very appropriate proverb! And in tune with the Elves politics.

You think, Sauron learned politics from the Elves (some secret lessons from Galadriel, no doubt, during Eregion times).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olmer

I already had my POW about strangeness of the attacks on Lothlorien. Now I have a thought that probably all this attacks was ochestrated by Nazgul with the elve's agreement and without Sauron's direct manadement.

I have an impression thet IF Galadriel and "the Wize" had dealings with the Enemy, these dealings were with Necromancer-Sauron himself, NOT with the nazgul.
I believe the nazgul were not so subtle as the former Galadriel's admirer, they just hated the Elves's guts!

I think, Sauron started to increase Dol Guldur contingent as he learned that the Ring came to Lorien, in January 3019. Then later, when he started to suspect that Lorien was not the Ring's final destination, he decided to use these lazy orcs for something useful. At least to ensure that no elves would come to help Gondor (as if it were remotely possible

). And he still was not 100% sure that the Ring was not in Lorien, after all!

CrazySquirrel · 06-24-2005, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olmer

Very appropriate proverb! And in tune with the Elves politics.

I already had my POW about strangeness of the attacks on Lothlorien. Now I have a thought that probably all this attacks was ochestrated by Nazgul with the elve's agreement and without Sauron's direct manadement.

Why do you find attacks on Lorien strange?

Telcontar_Dunedain · 06-25-2005, 04:54 PM

Because he thinks Galadriel is in league with Sauron.

CrazySquirrel · 06-30-2005, 02:32 PM

Does he really

?
How could that be? Galadriel could take the ring from Frodo and give it to Sau. But she didn't. So how could they be in league?
Where is Olmer BTW, does anyone know?

Gordis · 04-06-2006, 07:40 PM

*Bump*
This thread is dear to my heart

, so I would be happy to hear some new opinions on the matter discussed.

Lefty Scaevola · 04-06-2006, 11:00 PM

I think the Nazgul were without their rings during the third age, or at least not wearing them. Despite their lack of power, I am cofindent that either Gollum or Bilbo would have had some sort of mental contact with the Nazgul, had they been wearing the one/nine rings at the same time. Look how rapidly Frodo comes into contact with Sauron when Frodo puts on the ring. If the Nazgul had been bearing their rings, the hobbit ring bearers would had somesort of nasty nightmare contact with them.

Curubethion · 04-07-2006, 02:09 AM

Au contraire, I would argue that the Nazgul did have their rings. Sauron gave them the rings, and that's how he had his hold on them. It was through the rings that they had their lingering existence. We saw that the Ring granted unnatural long life. So did the Nine. That's a sign, I think, that they had their rings.
Without them, they wouldn't even be able to live, I think. Notice what happened to them when the power of the One was broken: they perished. This was because the breaking of the One diminished or destroyed the power of the other rings, as shown by the fading of the Elven rings.
To counter your point regarding the perceptions by Gollum and Bilbo of the wraiths...Frodo did make actual contact with them. Had Sauron been awakened, he would have been able to make contact with Gollum and Bilbo when they put on the ring. As it was, however, he was only starting to take shape in Mirkwood. He could not sense the ring.
So in conclusion, I believe that Sauron kept them in thrall by means of the Nine Rings, which they wore throughout the Third Age.

Gordis · 04-07-2006, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

I think the Nazgul were without their rings during the third age, or at least not wearing them. Despite their lack of power, I am cofindent that either Gollum or Bilbo would have had some sort of mental contact with the Nazgul, had they been wearing the one/nine rings at the same time. Look how rapidly Frodo comes into contact with Sauron when Frodo puts on the ring. If the Nazgul had been bearing their rings, the hobbit ring bearers would had somesort of nasty nightmare contact with them.

But what about Gandalf, the wielder of Narya? What about Erlond, who had Vilia? They were often in the same room with Bilbo, but felt nothing. Bilbo wore the Ring to approach the dwarves and Gandalf unnoticed, still the wizard felt nothing. And the Nazgul were far away, in Minas Morgul.

Also, even Sauron was not always immediately aware of somone putting on the Ring (Sam in Mordor). And, by that time, Sauron had 9 nazgul rings + 3 dwarven rings.
As for the ringless nazgul, they reacted to someone putting on the Ring only in PJ's movie. Aragorn was afraid that someone (the Southerner, or Ferny) will TELL the nazgul about Frodo' disappearance at the Pony. So, they themselves felt nothing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curubethion

Without them, they wouldn't even be able to live, I think.

By the time of the LOTR, the nazgul wore no rings,Sauron had them. Tolkien made it plain in UT and his Letters. See the FAQ link in the first post of this thread - there are all the quotes on the subject.

05-29-2005, 05:14 PM	#61
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	It is possible, though I always thouht of him as a Black Numenorean. __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

06-25-2005, 04:54 PM	#75
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	Because he thinks Galadriel is in league with Sauron. __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

04-06-2006, 11:00 PM	#78
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	I think the Nazgul were without their rings during the third age, or at least not wearing them. Despite their lack of power, I am cofindent that either Gollum or Bilbo would have had some sort of mental contact with the Nazgul, had they been wearing the one/nine rings at the same time. Look how rapidly Frodo comes into contact with Sauron when Frodo puts on the ring. If the Nazgul had been bearing their rings, the hobbit ring bearers would had somesort of nasty nightmare contact with them. __________________ Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me,"

04-07-2006, 02:09 AM	#79
Curubethion Fenway Ranger, Lord of Red Sox Nation Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: College! Posts: 1,976	Au contraire, I would argue that the Nazgul did have their rings. Sauron gave them the rings, and that's how he had his hold on them. It was through the rings that they had their lingering existence. We saw that the Ring granted unnatural long life. So did the Nine. That's a sign, I think, that they had their rings. Without them, they wouldn't even be able to live, I think. Notice what happened to them when the power of the One was broken: they perished. This was because the breaking of the One diminished or destroyed the power of the other rings, as shown by the fading of the Elven rings. To counter your point regarding the perceptions by Gollum and Bilbo of the wraiths...Frodo did make actual contact with them. Had Sauron been awakened, he would have been able to make contact with Gollum and Bilbo when they put on the ring. As it was, however, he was only starting to take shape in Mirkwood. He could not sense the ring. So in conclusion, I believe that Sauron kept them in thrall by means of the Nine Rings, which they wore throughout the Third Age. __________________ Adventure...betrayal...heroism... Atharon: where heroes are born. My wife once said to me—when I'd been writing for ten or fifteen years—that I could always go back to being a nuclear engineer. And I said to her, 'Harriet, would you let someone who quit his job to go write fantasy anywhere near your nuclear reactor? I wouldn't!' (Robert Jordan)

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05-29-2005, 05:18 PM	#62
Gordis Lady of the Ulairi Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Minas Morgul Posts: 2,783	Actually isn't it STRANGE that Sauron left 7 of the nazgul live in Minas Morgul? He could have used one as lieutenant of BaradDur, another a lieutenant of Morannon, a third in charge of Cirith Ungol, a fourth in command of Nurn region... you get the picture. But no. Cirith Ungol fortress was even given to an ORC! Why?

05-29-2005, 05:25 PM	#63
Last Child of Ungoliant The Intermittent One Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: here and there Posts: 4,671	keep all the rats in one trap?

05-31-2005, 04:57 PM	#69
Last Child of Ungoliant The Intermittent One Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: here and there Posts: 4,671	keep your friends close, your enemies closer, and your enemies pretending to be your friends closest,

06-30-2005, 02:32 PM	#76
CrazySquirrel Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 796	Does he really ? How could that be? Galadriel could take the ring from Frodo and give it to Sau. But she didn't. So how could they be in league? Where is Olmer BTW, does anyone know?

04-06-2006, 07:40 PM	#77
Gordis Lady of the Ulairi Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Minas Morgul Posts: 2,783	Bump This thread is dear to my heart , so I would be happy to hear some new opinions on the matter discussed.