Were the Nazgul free from Sauron for the most part of the Third Age?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by gordis

You may agree with it or not, but that is sure that at least they had not bothered to prepare Barad Dur for Sauron's arrival . He had to take care of it himself.

Gordis, I took this from the 'What happened when the WC council drove Sauron out?' thread. I disagree, IMO only Sauron could begin rebuilding Barad-Dûr. It was because of him that it fell and he built it using his magic that was beyond the Nazgûl's powers. And I don't really thinnk Minas Morgul would be the best place to hide from Sauron, do you?

[Gordis]

I think it is a very good idea you've had to move this question in the appropriate thread. Somehow the discussion always turns aside from the original subject…

Now, about Barad Dur. It is true that the foundations were made with the One ring, but, as for the rest, I think not. Practically, I believe, that were the nazgul in Sauron's service before his return to Mordor, they could have rebuilt Barad Dur. Especially if the nazgul still had their rings. As it is, Sauron had to rebuild Barad-Dur himself. Interestingly, the rebuilding of Barad-Dur began not in 2942, when Sauron returned to Mordor in secret, but only in 2951 when he has "declared himself openly" (Tale of Years) and have overcome the nazgul and taken their 9 rings. So, probably he used the 9 rings for the re-building.

Originally Posted by Telcontar Dunedain

And I don't really think Minas Morgul would be the best place to hide from Sauron, do you?

"To hide" was the wrong word, sorry. Of course, everybody knew where the nazgul lived. I believe that the best term is "to hold a fort", as suggested by Halbarad in his post in this thread:

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

However when the ringless Nazgul could not hold their own kingdoms they returned to their "Plan B" which was to hold a fort against the return of Sauron into Mordor so they took control of Minas Ithil and Cirith Ungol and no doubt had posts at the Morannon, to guard against the return of their oppressor.

And yes, I believe that as a fort against Sauron, Minas Morgul was the perfect place. The easiest approach to the place was from Ithilien, and that approach was guarded by all the might of Gondor, that still considered Ithilien as a part of the realm. There was not even a remote possibility of agreement between Gondor and Sauron to let the latter's army pass to the Morgul Vale. The alternative approach through Mordor involved a passage of the Morannon and the High Pass of Ungol, both undoubtedly guarded by the nazgul. If both places were taken, the nazgul still had the possibility to escape through Ithilien. So for them Minas Morgul was much safer than any place in the East where Sauron had allies and influence and where the nazgul could be surrounded by overwhelming forces.

It is interesting to note that in the cases of major assaults on Gondor inspired by Sauron, the nazgul stayed perfectly neutral and out of the way (See Tale of Years):
In 1851-1899 Gondor is assaulted by the Wainriders, in 1856 Gondor loses its eastern territories, and Narmacil II falls in battle. In 1899 king Calimehtar defeats the Wainriders on Dagorlad. In 1944 Ondoher falls in battle. Eärnil defeats the enemy in South Ithilien. He then wins the Battle of the Camp, and drives Wainriders into the Dead Marshes. At this time there were already several nazgul in Gorgoroth, but none came to Dagorlad or to Ithilien to help Sauron's allies.

Since 2002 all the Nine dwell in Minas Morgul. Nothing has changed. In 2758 Gondor is attacked by fleets of the Corsairs, the nazgul remain quiet. In 2758 "stirred up by emissaries of Sauron the Haradrim cross the Poros and attack Gondor. When Ithilien was invaded in great strength. King Folcwine of Rohan fulfilled the Oath of Eorl and repaid his debt for the aid brought by Beregond, sending many men to Gondor. The sons of Folcwine of Rohan are slain in the service of Gondor."
So there was fighting in Ithilien, at the doorstep of Minas Morgul! The appearance of Morgul orcs or even of a single nazgul might have changed the outcome. ( And there were troops in Morgul, as 15 years later " most of the remaining inhabitants of Ithilien desert it owing to the attacks of Uruks of Mordor.") But, no, the nazgul remained in their fortress. IMO, if the Haradrim were winning the war, the nazgul would even have intervened to help Gondor ! Because, after having defeated Gondor, Sauron would have attacked Minas Morgul by way of Ithilien.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by gordis

Now, about Barad Dur. It is true that the foundations were made with the One ring, but, as for the rest, I think not. Practically, I believe, that were the nazgul in Sauron's service before his return to Mordor, they could have rebuilt Barad Dur. Especially if the nazgul still had their rings. As it is, Sauron had to rebuild Barad-Dur himself. Interestingly, the rebuilding of Barad-Dur began not in 2942, when Sauron returned to Mordor in secret, but only in 2951 when he has "declared himself openly" (Tale of Years) and have overcome the nazgul and taken their 9 rings. So, probably he used the 9 rings for the re-building.

As I have said many times the power of the One was different to the other Rings, as that was made for domination. Also the power of the One came from Sauron, so I don't see any reason why Sauron couldn't rebuild Barad-Dûr without the aid of any Rings.

I'm not sure wether it was in this thread, but you and Olmer have said that the actions of the Nazgûl during the Hunt of the Ring, pointed to the fact that they were free from Sauron.

At length he resolved that no ther would serve him in this case but his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths, who had no will but his own, being each utterly subservient to the Ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held.

This confirms that Sauron held their Rings, but the Nazgûl where serving Sauron, not themselves.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

As I have said many times the power of the One was different to the other Rings, as that was made for domination. Also the power of the One came from Sauron, so I don't see any reason why Sauron couldn't rebuild Barad-Dûr without the aid of any Rings.

It is canon that the foundations of BaradDur were built with the help of the One. Therefore the Last Alliance was able to demolish the fortress but not its foundations. So, in 2951 Sauron had only to rebuild the fortress and perhaps he did it without the help of the Rings, or he might use the 9 and 3 dwarven rings he held.

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I'm not sure wether it was in this thread, but you and Olmer have said that the actions of the Nazgûl during the Hunt of the Ring, pointed to the fact that they were free from Sauron.

I can't answer for Olmer, sometimes it is hard to say what he really believes. As for me, I always accepted the fact that by the time of the Hunt for the Ring Sauron has got all the 9 rings himself. I believe it he has got the nazgul rings in 2951, almost 70 years before the hunt. So after 2951 the nazgul were serving Sauron and theoretically were fully under his control. At least Sauron believed them to be. But IMO everyone reading LOTR and especially "The Hunt.." in UT gets the impression that the nazgul acted very strangely. Olmer has illustrated it at length in the "In defence of the Ringwraiths thread". I have posted additional examples in the Eye thread.

IMO, Sauron believed that having the Nine rings and equipped with the Eye, he could read ALL of the nazgul minds, and he was right to an extent, but it looks like there still remained a possibility for them to shield some thoughts from him.
My take on the matter is this: If Sauron after Gollum's revelations had put the Witch-King's ring on and fixed him with the Eye and asked him directly: "And now, Witchy, my darling, tell me where IS the Shire?" the Witch-King would have been compelled to tell him. But as Sauron hadn't suspected that the WK knew about the Shire's location from his time in Angmar, he didn't ask directly. And that was a BIG mistake. Because after having lied (by omission to venture the info), the WK and the other 8 became most interested NOT to let Sauron have the Ring, because otherwise they would have to answer for all the lies and omissions as well.

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by gordis

Sorry for the long delay with the reply. Actually I was hoping that someone else will have an answer for you. I am not so sure of mine, you see.

I believe that the ring permitted to shift a person from one word into another - from seen into unseen and vice versa. So, IMHO, with the ring on his finger and an appropriate spell a nazgul can easily be seen and even pass for a mortal. Perhaps shifting into physical word they even regained normal human sight?

Now what happens to a nazgul without the ring? That is the situation we see in LOTR and the Hunt for the Ring. By default the ringwraiths lived in the spirit word. Without the ring they were unable to be seen “ unclad” i.e. without normal (physical) clothes, hoods and masks that they needed “to give shape to their nothingness”. But on the other hand, their bodies were physically existent in the physical world, though invisible. Otherwise how could they wear the clothes, wield weapons and ride horses? That is where I am confused. All this seems contradictory to me.
Actually I wonder: can one bump into an unclad and invisible nazgul or will one pass right through?

Thank you so much Gordis for replying to me. Sorry I was not around for awile.

And really can one bump into an invisible and unclad nazgul?

Another question, if half of the nazgul lost their rings to Sauron before 2942? why sauron has not used them?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

And really can one bump into an invisible and unclad nazgul?

I believe yes, but I am far from sure. It is hard to tell how matherial their invisible bodies were. I really don't understand all this "loosing shape" thing.

What do the others think?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I would say yes, purely because there was enough of them to wear cloaks.

[Gordis]

I have not had time to check the books (HOME), but it seems to me that Tolkien first conceived the nazgul to be shape-shifters. I think in the first drafts of the Gaffer's encounter with a nazgul the latter looked like a hobbit!. Then Tolkien has written several versions of the Counsil of Erlond where all these observations about "loosing shape" belong, and then proceeded further. And what I remember for sure: in the first draft of Eowyn-WK fight she cut off the Fell-Beast head and that alone has caused the disappearance of the WK!! In the next draft, the WK remained very much alive after the death of his birdie, so Tolkien must have changed his conception of nazgul's matherial body at this point. I believe Tolkien simply failed to correct the previous chapters.

[CrazySquirrel]

A very interesting idea, Gordis!

And sorry what do you think about:

If half of the nazgul lost their rings to Sauron before 2942, why Sauron has not used these nazgul (because now he COULD USE THEM), but let them go to Minas Morgul and stay away and do nothing?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

And sorry what do you think about:

If half of the nazgul lost their rings to Sauron before 2942, why Sauron has not used these nazgul (because now he COULD USE THEM), but let them go to Minas Morgul and stay away and do nothing?

It is possible, if we accept the second scenario, that several nazgul were caught while passing near Dol Guldur sometime before TA 1980.
Since Sauron had taken their Rings, they were technically always under his orders. He may have used them as messengers, to supervise castle renovations etc. But I believe that after Angmar was defeated Sauron has devised a cunning plan: He set the nazgul "free" to act as the fifth column of Sauron in Minas Morgul.
A nazgul without a ring is a rather pathetic creature. Lots of phobias, blindness in daylight and so on. They were afraid to enter an inn where there were lights and people. They even ran away from a shouting hobbit (the incident with Merry in Bree). So, after being robbed of their Rings and freed from Dol Guldur, the poor ringless nazgul quite naturally adhered to their Captain.
The company in Minas Morgul must have been mixed (some were with their Rings and some without). Thousand years have passed. Sauron seemed to have forgotten about "his" nazgul. And the nazgul must have forgotten that their ringless comrades were a potential threat to the others. These ringless nazgul must have been crucial for Sauron when he returned to Mordor. The Witch King certainly had the Morannon and Cirith Ungol guarded. The ringless nazgul must have let Sauron through the Morannon and through the Cirith Ungol Pass and gave him the possibility to approach the unsuspecting Witch-King via Mordor. The Witch King and the other nazgul had no time to flee via Ithilien and lost their rings.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I don't think tthey fled from Merry out of fear. I think they fled because they wanted to be kept secret, and have their presence unknown.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I don't think tthey fled from Merry out of fear. I think they fled because they wanted to be kept secret, and have their presence unknown.

From Nob, actually.
Yes I believe they could have fought a hobbit with a torch if it were necessary But still, without the WK leading them they were weak.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I diagree again. If, as you claim, Khamul went back to Dol Guldur, to attack Lorien and Thranduil's Realm, then he surely was not weak without the WK.

[Gordis]

It looks like Khamul is your favorite nazgul, TD!
But it is stated in UT that he was the one most afflicted by water phobia, and daylight. On the other hand, he was second to the Chief, it certainly means he had some strong points other than sensing the Ring keenly. Perhaps he was a good sorceror? Or a good war leader?

Actually it is quite strange, isn't it, that in the Tale of Years there is no mention of nazgul leading attacks on Lorien or Mirkwood. One can think there were just orcs. And from reading the description of the Ring's destruction I got an impression that all the remaining 8 nazgul were present at Morannon and perished in flames.

What is your opinion?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I do not think that Sauron would trust any Orc to command the attack on such a critical place in ME. However I think it is likely that after their defeat, Khamul returned to Mordor, and was destroyed.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I do not think that Sauron would trust any Orc to command the attack on such a critical place in ME. However I think it is likely that after their defeat, Khamul returned to Mordor, and was destroyed.

It is very likely. However, there are no textual proofs.

How do you think, TD, was Khamul called "The Shadow of the East" only because he was originally an Easterling or because sometime in the first part of the THIRD age he was known for his activities in the East already as a Shadow? (Like the Morgul Lord was called "the Witch-King of Angmar" ever since just for his activities in the THIRD age)?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I agree gordis. Do you know whether there is anywhere were it states that all the Nazgûl were present at the Battle of the Pellenor Fields?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I agree gordis. Do you know whether there is anywhere were it states that all the Nazgûl were present at the Battle of the Pellenor Fields?

No, I think some were missing, at least Khamul.
Actually it is quite logical to assume Khamul was away at Dol Guldur as on March 11 there was the first assault on Lorien from DG and on the 15 (the day of the Pelennor battle) there were both the second assault on Lorien and the "battle under the trees in Mirkwood" where Thranduil repelled DG forces (Tale of Years).
Another proof : when the Witch-King was slain by Eowyn, the logical replacement for him would have been his second-in command, Khamul. But it was Gothmog, the Lieutenant of Morgul, who replaced Witchy. So Khamul very likely was absent.

What do you think about Khamul's title (see my previous post)?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But why didn't aany of the other Nazgûl take control?

As for the name I agree. Especially since Haldir said in FotR "Oft the shadow now lies over it" or something similar.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

But why didn't any of the other Nazgûl take control?

Why couldn't Gothmog be the No3 Nazgul? Second in command in Minas Morgul?