Were the Nazgul free from Sauron for the most part of the Third Age?

Gordis · 04-03-2005, 06:41 PM

There are some questions that, I believe, have never been discussed:
When and how Sauron collected the Nine Rings?
Were the nazgul free from Sauron for a time?
Was the Witch-King at Carn Dum a servant of the Necromancer?

The history of the Nine rings is mysterious.
What do we know?
1. In the Second Age Sauron gave the Nine Rings to mortal men and they became the ringwraiths. At this time Sauron fully controlled the nazgul, as they wore the Nine rings and Sauron wielded the Ruling Ring. This is, I believe, the uncontested canon.
2. At the end of the TA (at the time of LOTR) Sauron controlled the nazgul through the Nine rings which he HIMSELF HELD. (See quotes I have posted in the tread "Could he be overthrown..." or, better still, read the excellent FAQ tread suggested by Jon S. http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q0-InvWhy )

But if we accept 1 and 2, then follows an important logical corollary: When Sauron lost the Ruling Ring, he lost his control over the Nazgul and had no control over them before he could gather the Nine rings back to himself.

Let us look at the facts:
Sauron returned from the spirit world around 1040 of the Third Age and was slowly taking shape again in Dol Guldur. At first his presence was perceived only as a dark shadow covering the southern Mirkwood. Later, he was known as the Nacromancer, who kept so low and quiet, that nobody even suspected his true identity. It was in 2850 only that Gandalf went to Dol Guldur and reported "It is Sauron himself who has taken shape again and now grows apace; and he is gathering again all the rings to his hand ..." [Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age]
Meanwhile, the Witch-King first appeared in the West in 1300. He established a realm of his own and grew very strong. He ruled Angmar for about 700 years (1300-1975). At the beginning, and, probably, till the very end, no one realized that he was indeed the Lord of the Nazgul. During that same time frame, the Wize knew that a "necromancer" inhabited Dol Guldur. But they did not connect the king at Carn Dum with the evil in Mirkwood, which is intriguing. Perhaps there was no contact. No other nazgul took part in the battle of Fornost. Neither did the Witch King get any reinforcements from the East for his desperate last battle. The Witch King took the fall of Angmar personally-not as a general of Sauron, but as the defeated ruler of his own kingdom. It looks like Angmar was not a tribute to Sauron, but an independent act of the WK.
Then the story continues. After the battle of Fornost, the WK went not to Dol Guldur, but to Mordor, where he gathered other nazgul. They were already seen in Gorgoroth sometime after the Great Plague of 1636. They took Cirith Ungol and Minas Ithil and settled down in Minas Morgul.
In 2063 Gandalf visits Dol Guldur and causes Sauron's flight. And here it becomes interesting. Sauron does not go to Minas Morgul! Perhaps he knew he would get no welcome there. Instead, he flies East, hides there for 400 years and returns back to Dol Guldur.
Sauron stays in Dol Guldur till 2941, when the forces of White Counsil attack him and he flies to Mordor this time. But he comes there in secret and does not declare himself for 10 years - till 2951. It looks like it is at this time that Sauron has gathered all the Nine rings, because straightaway his power grew - Orodruin erupted again etc. and he started ordering the nazgul around. For example in 2951 he sent 3 of them to re-occupy Dol Guldur.

Now another question: HOW did Sauron collect the Nine rings to himself?
There could be two possible scenarios:
1. Sauron took the Nine rings from the nazgul in the Second age. It was easy to do, as the nazgul were then fully bent to his will. But why would he do that? He had the One and the system worked. And of course, he had to consider that taking the rings from the nazgul weakened them greatly.
However, at the end of the SA there were two moments when Sauron could wish to do so. The first was before Sauron went to surrender to Ar-Pharazon. If he left the Ruling Ring in a strongbox in Barad Dur, he could wish to put the Nine Rings there as well, just to be sure that the nazgul would be loyal in his absence. The second moment was during the siege of Barad Dur. If Sauron believed his case lost, he might have considered the possibility of losing the One, and decided to take and hide the Nine. If that is the case, the Nine Rings must have been kept under strong spells within those famous foundations of Barad-Dur, made with the Power of the One, that the victors of the Last Alliance were unable to break.
In the Third Age Sauron could not get the rings, as Mordor was closely guarded by Gondor troops till the great Plague of 1636. Perhaps he could have sneaked into Mordor and got the rings during the Watchful Peace, but it seems unlikely. Why hadn't he then declared himself openly at that time but returned instead to Mirkwood? Probably the nazgul guarded Barad Dur foundations too closely. Perhaps he had to accumulate more magic power to undo his own spells on the strongbox in Barad Dur, so he continued collecting the dwarven rings. It seems that only in TA 2942 Sauron sneaked into Mordor, found his hoard in the Barad-Dur foundations and, having gathered enough magic power from the 3 dwarven rings, was able to open it and get the rings.

2. The alternative scenario is that the Nazgul still kept their rings during the War of the Last Alliance.
On the slopes of Orodruin, Sauron was "killed". He became a bodiless spirit. What happened to the Nazgul? Perhaps they just turned invisible and fled, or they went away under cover of darkness as the Witch king did at the battle of Fornost. Certainly, there is no mention of them being killed, they merely "vanished into the shadows". They could have easily kept their rings and gone East, where they lived happily for more than a millennium unknown to the Wize of the West.
In the Third Age, Sauron, in the absence of the One, started gathering the other rings to himself. We know only that the "LAST of the seven" was taken by force from Train in 2845. But what about the Nazgul rings? It is highly unlikely that Sauron were able to confront the Witch King during his reign in Angmar. Perhaps, however, he was able to catch some of the lesser nazgul passing by Mirkwood and get their rings by force. If so, he set them free afterwards, as they were now under his control. From 2002 till 2942 all the nazgul remained together in Minas Morgul, far away from Sauron. He returned to Mordor in 2942 and not alone, but with all his forces of orcs from Dol Guldur. At this time Sauron had 3 dwarven rings and grew in power considerably. Even so, it is unlikely that the Nazgul surrendered their rings willingly. There must have been a confrontation. I do not think that Sauron and the Witch-King ran through Minas Morgul swinging swords at each other, more likely it was a "magic" battle of power and wills, and the Witch-King lost it. If Sauron has previously got control over some of the lesser nazgul, they obviously helped Sauron against their Captain.

So, in the first scenario the nazgul were ringless for all of the Third Age in the second they had rings. In both scenarios Sauron got the Nine Rings around 2942-2951, so the nazgul were free for most of the Third Age.

What do you think about it, dear Mooters?

Olmer · 04-04-2005, 10:57 PM

Interesting. I would say they had never been free, but they tried.
Considering that Nazgul had some intellect and therefore some feelings, they
probably felt dread of once upon mighty kings being an errands-boys for 5000 years without any hopes for freedom in the future. I think Sauron took the Rings from them, because the Nazgul tried to destroy them.

Gordis · 04-05-2005, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olmer

Interesting. I would say they had never been free, but they tried. Considering that Nazgul had some intellect and therefore some feelings, they probably felt dread of once upon mighty kings being an errands-boys for 5000 years without any hopes for freedom in the future. I think Sauron took the Rings from them, because the Nazgul tried to destroy them.

Hi, Olmer, I am so glad you read this.

I was mostly trying to emphasize that the evidence from the LOTR appendices shows that Sauron was NOT using nazgul as errand-boys (or in any other ways) from the beginning of the TA till his return to Barad Dur in 2951. If you can provide such evidence - I will be happy to see it.

Unlike you, I believe in a more canonic, straightforward ring-control: If you have the 9 rings or the One - then you can control the nazgul, if you have not - sorry, access is denied, try another time.

As for the Nazgul resenting being enslaved - to that I agree wholeheartedly. BTW I have read your tread on the hunt for the Ring - very convincing, IMHO. Perhaps I should try to reopen it, as I have some additional evidence. Consider also, that if the nazgul were entrapped (for the second time in their lives) only 70 years before LOTR (felt like yesterday to the 4500 years old wraiths), then during LOTR they must have hated Sauron's very guts

.
Much-much more than Gollum hated Bilbo

I cannot imagine any ringbearer willingly destroying his "precious" ring. Nobody ever did it (Celebrimbor, Galadriel Etc. down to Frodo) I think the nazgul wanted freedom in ME more than to die and go beyond. With their Rings and the One lost they were free. When Sauron took their rings, they must have lost all hope ever to take the 9 back. So they then opted for the One Ring ring's destruction and helped it subtly and secretly.

HistoryGuy · 04-05-2005, 06:50 AM

IMO, after the Last Alliance of Men and Elves, when Sauron's ring was cut from his hand by Isildur (hence, he was turned into a spirit), and fled east from Mordor (possibily Rhun, or elsewhere?), I think the Nazgul had a chance to "flee" from him. Heck, you don't think they went to Angmar for nothing do you? I honestly think they were trying to form there own kingdom, but they didn't plan on it being destroyed so soon after they formed it. IF my knowledge also serves me well, when Gandalf confirms that Sauron returned to ME (specifically Dol Goldur) the Nine returned to Mordor, rebuilt his fortress, and than Sauron eventually came home. Just my thought.

I believe, while the Nazgul did attempt to form their own realm in the North, they were loyal servants to Sauron by that time, and answered his calling when he was at Dol Goldur.

CrazySquirrel · 04-05-2005, 01:42 PM

Wauu, Gordis! It is hard to stomach. But I admit i never thought on it at all.
Perhaps you are right and Sau lived not only ringless but nazgulless....

But Why did Wikkie destroy Arnor if he turned a good guy?

And another thing: How come nobody understood that Wikkie was a nazgul from the start? Wasn't he invisible? King must appear in public. Sure he could put kingly robes, gloves, wig, crown etc, but what about his face? Tis hard to conseal.

WAUUUU! I got it. Some makeup perhaps? And mascara? Could that help to make him look normal?

And yet a thought. What do you think Wikkie looked like if made visible? I guess he was quite handsome. Wasn't he king of numenor? I read somewhere numenoreans were almost like elves in appearance.
And he must look young. Because the nazgul didn't age, just faded and turned invisible. So Wikkie must have looked better than Aragorn and Boromir. Not so hot as Legolas, though.
It is a shame how PJ has made Wikkie look at weathertop, like he sucked on a lemon for thousand years

. Why?

Halbarad of the Dunedain · 04-05-2005, 05:04 PM

An interesting question indeed gordis. I don't think that the nine rings were with the Nazgul after the fall of Sauron at the end of the Second Age. Had they been the powers of the nine would not have diminished and so with the power of his ring the Witch King should have been a more domminant king of Angmar, would he not? Yet his kingdom of Angmar was destroyed by the men of Gondor and so I say it is impossible that any of the Nazgul had their rings untill Sauron had given them back.
I think this theory works well because of the fear the Nazgul would have in the inevitable return of Sauron. The Witch King, and no dount the other Nazgul, were attempting to build their own kingdoms and own armies in the event they should need to defend themselves and defeat Sauron. It is unkown what the other Nazgul did but I do not doubt that the rest went into the East and into the South and there had similar unsuccessful kingdoms.
However when the ringless Nazgul could not hold their own kingdoms they returned to their "Plan B" which was to hold a fort against the return of Sauron into Mordor so they took control of Minas Ithil and Cirith Ungol and no doubt had posts at the Morannon, to gaurd gainst the return of their oppressor.
Perhaps also they returned to the land of Mordor to attempt to recover the nine rings before the return of Sauron? Without Sauron contoling the one ring and the Nazgul with theirs they may have been able to defeat not only Sauron but the men of Gondor and all of the west? I don't know how credible this last part would be but it does make sense.

Gordis · 04-06-2005, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

How come nobody understood that Wikkie was a nazgul from the start? Wasn't he invisible? King must appear in public. Sure he could put kingly robes, gloves, wig, crown etc, but what about his face? Tis hard to conseal.

WAUUUU! I got it. Some makeup perhaps? And mascara? Could that help to make him look normal?

Nice to have you here. CrazySquirrel. You have conjured such a disturbing picture in my mind: "Wikkie" in state robes applying makeup to his handsome invisible face and mascara to his long curved lashes...
Surely Tolkien has not intended this. No living man could have ... only a woman.

An AD in "The Middle Earth Weekly":
NEW BEAUTY PRODUCTS "SHADES OF LORIEN"
WILL TURN A NAZGUL INTO A HEALTHY LOOKING MAN
Address to: Lady Galadriel, Caras Galadon, Lorien
HUGE discounts for the first NINE customers

Sorry, no time for serious matters now, I have to run...

Butterbeer · 04-05-2005, 06:05 PM

[QUOTE=gordis]
Was the Witch-King at Carn Dum a servant of the Necromancer?

For me no, not at that time.

My inclination is that by Dol Guldur (certainly when the one was effectively "active" i.e in the time of Bilbo, prior to the White council action) then Sauron was effectively (to whatever degree) in control: whether in absolute terms or just effectively (this is how i read JRRT writing it)

it would make more sense if he had the nine: but this asks the question since i perceive the WKOA had a ring at this point before his defeat in the North by the Southern Gondorians, how did Sauron then, between Angmar and the end of the third age, take it off him (if he indeed had the nine rather then the Nazgul wearing them?)

how much does he draw strength from the growing activity of the One (and how much is this a mutually supportive two-way process? i.e the one being increasingly aware of sauron's re-emergence?)

excellent post and intro

04-03-2005, 06:41 PM	#1
Gordis Lady of the Ulairi Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Minas Morgul Posts: 2,783	Were the Nazgul free from Sauron for the most part of the Third Age? There are some questions that, I believe, have never been discussed: When and how Sauron collected the Nine Rings? Were the nazgul free from Sauron for a time? Was the Witch-King at Carn Dum a servant of the Necromancer? The history of the Nine rings is mysterious. What do we know? 1. In the Second Age Sauron gave the Nine Rings to mortal men and they became the ringwraiths. At this time Sauron fully controlled the nazgul, as they wore the Nine rings and Sauron wielded the Ruling Ring. This is, I believe, the uncontested canon. 2. At the end of the TA (at the time of LOTR) Sauron controlled the nazgul through the Nine rings which he HIMSELF HELD. (See quotes I have posted in the tread "Could he be overthrown..." or, better still, read the excellent FAQ tread suggested by Jon S. http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q0-InvWhy ) But if we accept 1 and 2, then follows an important logical corollary: When Sauron lost the Ruling Ring, he lost his control over the Nazgul and had no control over them before he could gather the Nine rings back to himself. Let us look at the facts: Sauron returned from the spirit world around 1040 of the Third Age and was slowly taking shape again in Dol Guldur. At first his presence was perceived only as a dark shadow covering the southern Mirkwood. Later, he was known as the Nacromancer, who kept so low and quiet, that nobody even suspected his true identity. It was in 2850 only that Gandalf went to Dol Guldur and reported "It is Sauron himself who has taken shape again and now grows apace; and he is gathering again all the rings to his hand ..." [Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age] Meanwhile, the Witch-King first appeared in the West in 1300. He established a realm of his own and grew very strong. He ruled Angmar for about 700 years (1300-1975). At the beginning, and, probably, till the very end, no one realized that he was indeed the Lord of the Nazgul. During that same time frame, the Wize knew that a "necromancer" inhabited Dol Guldur. But they did not connect the king at Carn Dum with the evil in Mirkwood, which is intriguing. Perhaps there was no contact. No other nazgul took part in the battle of Fornost. Neither did the Witch King get any reinforcements from the East for his desperate last battle. The Witch King took the fall of Angmar personally-not as a general of Sauron, but as the defeated ruler of his own kingdom. It looks like Angmar was not a tribute to Sauron, but an independent act of the WK. Then the story continues. After the battle of Fornost, the WK went not to Dol Guldur, but to Mordor, where he gathered other nazgul. They were already seen in Gorgoroth sometime after the Great Plague of 1636. They took Cirith Ungol and Minas Ithil and settled down in Minas Morgul. In 2063 Gandalf visits Dol Guldur and causes Sauron's flight. And here it becomes interesting. Sauron does not go to Minas Morgul! Perhaps he knew he would get no welcome there. Instead, he flies East, hides there for 400 years and returns back to Dol Guldur. Sauron stays in Dol Guldur till 2941, when the forces of White Counsil attack him and he flies to Mordor this time. But he comes there in secret and does not declare himself for 10 years - till 2951. It looks like it is at this time that Sauron has gathered all the Nine rings, because straightaway his power grew - Orodruin erupted again etc. and he started ordering the nazgul around. For example in 2951 he sent 3 of them to re-occupy Dol Guldur. Now another question: HOW did Sauron collect the Nine rings to himself? There could be two possible scenarios: 1. Sauron took the Nine rings from the nazgul in the Second age. It was easy to do, as the nazgul were then fully bent to his will. But why would he do that? He had the One and the system worked. And of course, he had to consider that taking the rings from the nazgul weakened them greatly. However, at the end of the SA there were two moments when Sauron could wish to do so. The first was before Sauron went to surrender to Ar-Pharazon. If he left the Ruling Ring in a strongbox in Barad Dur, he could wish to put the Nine Rings there as well, just to be sure that the nazgul would be loyal in his absence. The second moment was during the siege of Barad Dur. If Sauron believed his case lost, he might have considered the possibility of losing the One, and decided to take and hide the Nine. If that is the case, the Nine Rings must have been kept under strong spells within those famous foundations of Barad-Dur, made with the Power of the One, that the victors of the Last Alliance were unable to break. In the Third Age Sauron could not get the rings, as Mordor was closely guarded by Gondor troops till the great Plague of 1636. Perhaps he could have sneaked into Mordor and got the rings during the Watchful Peace, but it seems unlikely. Why hadn't he then declared himself openly at that time but returned instead to Mirkwood? Probably the nazgul guarded Barad Dur foundations too closely. Perhaps he had to accumulate more magic power to undo his own spells on the strongbox in Barad Dur, so he continued collecting the dwarven rings. It seems that only in TA 2942 Sauron sneaked into Mordor, found his hoard in the Barad-Dur foundations and, having gathered enough magic power from the 3 dwarven rings, was able to open it and get the rings. 2. The alternative scenario is that the Nazgul still kept their rings during the War of the Last Alliance. On the slopes of Orodruin, Sauron was "killed". He became a bodiless spirit. What happened to the Nazgul? Perhaps they just turned invisible and fled, or they went away under cover of darkness as the Witch king did at the battle of Fornost. Certainly, there is no mention of them being killed, they merely "vanished into the shadows". They could have easily kept their rings and gone East, where they lived happily for more than a millennium unknown to the Wize of the West. In the Third Age, Sauron, in the absence of the One, started gathering the other rings to himself. We know only that the "LAST of the seven" was taken by force from Train in 2845. But what about the Nazgul rings? It is highly unlikely that Sauron were able to confront the Witch King during his reign in Angmar. Perhaps, however, he was able to catch some of the lesser nazgul passing by Mirkwood and get their rings by force. If so, he set them free afterwards, as they were now under his control. From 2002 till 2942 all the nazgul remained together in Minas Morgul, far away from Sauron. He returned to Mordor in 2942 and not alone, but with all his forces of orcs from Dol Guldur. At this time Sauron had 3 dwarven rings and grew in power considerably. Even so, it is unlikely that the Nazgul surrendered their rings willingly. There must have been a confrontation. I do not think that Sauron and the Witch-King ran through Minas Morgul swinging swords at each other, more likely it was a "magic" battle of power and wills, and the Witch-King lost it. If Sauron has previously got control over some of the lesser nazgul, they obviously helped Sauron against their Captain. So, in the first scenario the nazgul were ringless for all of the Third Age in the second they had rings. In both scenarios Sauron got the Nine Rings around 2942-2951, so the nazgul were free for most of the Third Age. What do you think about it, dear Mooters?

04-04-2005, 10:57 PM	#2
Olmer Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: LI-woods, NY Posts: 653	Interesting. I would say they had never been free, but they tried. Considering that Nazgul had some intellect and therefore some feelings, they probably felt dread of once upon mighty kings being an errands-boys for 5000 years without any hopes for freedom in the future. I think Sauron took the Rings from them, because the Nazgul tried to destroy them. Last edited by Olmer : 04-04-2005 at 10:59 PM.

04-05-2005, 05:04 PM	#6
Halbarad of the Dunedain Elven Warrior Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Arthedian Posts: 460	An interesting question indeed gordis. I don't think that the nine rings were with the Nazgul after the fall of Sauron at the end of the Second Age. Had they been the powers of the nine would not have diminished and so with the power of his ring the Witch King should have been a more domminant king of Angmar, would he not? Yet his kingdom of Angmar was destroyed by the men of Gondor and so I say it is impossible that any of the Nazgul had their rings untill Sauron had given them back. I think this theory works well because of the fear the Nazgul would have in the inevitable return of Sauron. The Witch King, and no dount the other Nazgul, were attempting to build their own kingdoms and own armies in the event they should need to defend themselves and defeat Sauron. It is unkown what the other Nazgul did but I do not doubt that the rest went into the East and into the South and there had similar unsuccessful kingdoms. However when the ringless Nazgul could not hold their own kingdoms they returned to their "Plan B" which was to hold a fort against the return of Sauron into Mordor so they took control of Minas Ithil and Cirith Ungol and no doubt had posts at the Morannon, to gaurd gainst the return of their oppressor. Perhaps also they returned to the land of Mordor to attempt to recover the nine rings before the return of Sauron? Without Sauron contoling the one ring and the Nazgul with theirs they may have been able to defeat not only Sauron but the men of Gondor and all of the west? I don't know how credible this last part would be but it does make sense. __________________ "Can you feel her, running through your veins? She will always live forever!" ~ Atreyu [Her portrait in Black] "I want to see pretty people doing ugly things..." ~ Unknown "Damn it n' such!" ~ Stewie Griffen

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04-05-2005, 06:50 AM	#4
HistoryGuy Sapling Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7	IMO, after the Last Alliance of Men and Elves, when Sauron's ring was cut from his hand by Isildur (hence, he was turned into a spirit), and fled east from Mordor (possibily Rhun, or elsewhere?), I think the Nazgul had a chance to "flee" from him. Heck, you don't think they went to Angmar for nothing do you? I honestly think they were trying to form there own kingdom, but they didn't plan on it being destroyed so soon after they formed it. IF my knowledge also serves me well, when Gandalf confirms that Sauron returned to ME (specifically Dol Goldur) the Nine returned to Mordor, rebuilt his fortress, and than Sauron eventually came home. Just my thought. I believe, while the Nazgul did attempt to form their own realm in the North, they were loyal servants to Sauron by that time, and answered his calling when he was at Dol Goldur.

04-05-2005, 01:42 PM	#5
CrazySquirrel Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 796	Wauu, Gordis! It is hard to stomach. But I admit i never thought on it at all. Perhaps you are right and Sau lived not only ringless but nazgulless.... But Why did Wikkie destroy Arnor if he turned a good guy? And another thing: How come nobody understood that Wikkie was a nazgul from the start? Wasn't he invisible? King must appear in public. Sure he could put kingly robes, gloves, wig, crown etc, but what about his face? Tis hard to conseal. WAUUUU! I got it. Some makeup perhaps? And mascara? Could that help to make him look normal? And yet a thought. What do you think Wikkie looked like if made visible? I guess he was quite handsome. Wasn't he king of numenor? I read somewhere numenoreans were almost like elves in appearance. And he must look young. Because the nazgul didn't age, just faded and turned invisible. So Wikkie must have looked better than Aragorn and Boromir. Not so hot as Legolas, though. It is a shame how PJ has made Wikkie look at weathertop, like he sucked on a lemon for thousand years . Why?

04-05-2005, 06:05 PM	#8
Butterbeer Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: here and there Posts: 3,514	[QUOTE=gordis] Was the Witch-King at Carn Dum a servant of the Necromancer? For me no, not at that time. My inclination is that by Dol Guldur (certainly when the one was effectively "active" i.e in the time of Bilbo, prior to the White council action) then Sauron was effectively (to whatever degree) in control: whether in absolute terms or just effectively (this is how i read JRRT writing it) it would make more sense if he had the nine: but this asks the question since i perceive the WKOA had a ring at this point before his defeat in the North by the Southern Gondorians, how did Sauron then, between Angmar and the end of the third age, take it off him (if he indeed had the nine rather then the Nazgul wearing them?) how much does he draw strength from the growing activity of the One (and how much is this a mutually supportive two-way process? i.e the one being increasingly aware of sauron's re-emergence?) excellent post and intro