What if SMAUG had gotten The One Ring?

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by CAB

Would a mere animal be capable of putting people under spells?

Absolutely yes. This one spells me routinely.

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

Absolutely yes. This one spells me routinely.

I thought I would also add that Teddy Bear died, about a year after I posted his picture here, of immune-mediated hemolytic anemia. That is an immune system disease where your white blood cells fail to recognize your red blood cells as being "you" and attack and destroy them. We controlled his illness as long as we could with steroids which worked in the short term but destroyed his liver over time so we had to put him down. He's buried in the back yard under a plaque reading, "Teddy Bear - he was a brave boy." Dart (our other cat) took it the hardest of all. We could never "replace" Teddy but we brought in Lucy (the tabby) to be Dart's new playmate. They get along splendidly today.

[Amanda]

If they didn't add in the part in where Smaug couldn't smelt the One Ring, that'd be on interesting plot hole. For one thing, Peter Jackson would have had more time to work on something else since the Lord of the Rings books wouldn't have existed, and thus wouldn't have inspired the movie.

If Smaug had gotten the one ring, it's hard to tell what he would be capable of doing. He would be able to do... whatever the writer (Tolkien) wanted him to do. I can be sure of one thing, though -- that it wouldn't be time travel. Maybe +200 armor, 50% improved health regeneration ability, +1,000 degrees for his fire breathing special weapon, 50% increased speed and rate of fire, greater agility, and the ability to blow up his enemies just by thinking about it. He would still be destroyable, but it would take an awful lot. He still wouldn't be as powerful as Sauron. "He does not share power." Anyone who possesses the ring aside from Sauron seems to lose everything that they are in short order. Even Sauron himself had to sacrifice much of his native abilities and appearance to forge it. I don't think I would want to be anywhere close to the One Ring, let alone putting the thing on.

I'd say if anything, it'd have to agree that it'd have a lot to do with gold, mithril, and other such treasure and loot. If he kills an enemy who has 20 gold pieces, maybe those 20 gold pieces would magically become 40. Then he could use it to buy a nice hat. Because, as we all know, you can't go wrong with a dragon who wears a nice hat.

"Lookin' dapper there, Smaug!"

"Thanks! I won't burn your city down then! I'll just go over to the next town to the east and burn it instead! See what you can accomplish just by being polite?"

[BeardofPants]

Cross-posted. There's some clarification on the meaning of 'were' on the previous page. Translates to 'man'. So a 'were-worm' would be a man-worm based on the etymology.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Cross-posted. There's some clarification on the meaning of 'were' on the previous page. Translates to 'man'. So a 'were-worm' would be a man-worm based on the etymology.

Hehe well just as I commented on this thread's debate which ended 4 years ago, I'll say it again, it's very interesting stuff, but we're moving off topic

Though the man-worm talk is hilarious

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I am not sure of all this either. The note about Glaurung posted above is very obscure. It might have been abandoned soon after being written.
Wereworms of the Last Desert in the Hobbit seem to be just a colorful detail, without any precise background.

I would also wonder, if a dragon could be as intelligent, powerful, and evil as Smaug without having an outside spirit trapped within it's body, why bother putting one in Glaurung?

Originally Posted by Gordis

I think the "magic effort" needed "to house" a spirit depended on the strength of the creature whose body was used as target. Dragons are the most formidable of all animals, so, maybe it took a Vala to "turn" them, while Sauron could produce werewolves by hundreds.

This is possible, but I'm not so sure about it. The strength of the body seems quite unrelated to spiritual matters. On the other hand, maybe a powerful mind would make it difficult to house a spirit in a dragon (assuming mind and spirit are different things, and it appears that in Tolkien's world that they are). Smaug certainly had a strong mind.

Originally Posted by Gordis

As for Smaug's spell, I think it was not "a spell" as such, but a reference to the hypnotizing power of Dragon's eyes - a widely spread notion in folklore. Snakes produce the same effect on mice and small birds without any magic involved.

I don't think I can agree with this. Glaurung's spell was clearly magical and since Smaug's (and other dragons') power was so similar (if there was any difference at all) it seems unlikely that it would be merely "natural".

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

I would also wonder, if a dragon could be as intelligent, powerful, and evil as Smaug without having an outside spirit trapped within it's body, why bother putting one in Glaurung?

Maybe to control the dragon better?

[Ingwe]

I could only say one thing, if Smaug's breath could have ever destroyed the Ring, and Gandalf knew this, I believe Gandalf would probably say something along the lines of...."oops, we killed him, aw crap!"

[Mornorngûr]

The Spiders of Mirkwood weren't spirits of any kind trapped inside of bodyS, yet they were intelligent. The same goes for Shelob, these all came from Ungoliant aforetime when she bred with herself. It seems that the offspring would inherit some of their parents capabilities, including intelligence. This may also go for the Eagles in the Hobbit and the Lotr, they seem to be other Eagles than Thorondor's yet of the same race. You could even look at Elrond or Luthien amongst others, they had powers and capabilities inherited from their parents that others of their races did not posses.

I would like to assume that the first Dragons conceived by Morgoth were Maia who changed from their Balrog form and took on the raiment that Morgoth had devised, in this case it was the body's of the Dragons(The same as Aüle made the Dwalf bodies without spirits inside) which the Balrog Maiar now took up. After many years the Dragons would have bred and had offspring, Smaug was not a original Dragon and was therefore not a Maia, howere he still inherited alot of his make-up from his Maiar forefathers.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Smaug picks it up... curiously. "What's this thing that didn't burn up in my firey breath?" He examines it, notices how it grows to fit his finger, tries it on... and discovers its nature.

What happens next?

There would be a hot time, in thold town, tonight, all old towns.
Much would depend on Samug's desires. Does he want power, or just more riches? Whichever he desires, he would then obtain.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

There would be a hot time, in thold town, tonight, all old towns.
Much would depend on Samug's desires. Does he want power, or just more riches? Whichever he desires, he would then obtain.

Smaug is by nature a loot-seeking guy. And apparently he is fond of sitting tight on whatever hoarded loot he has acquired. With that in mind, perhaps the most obvious thing Smaug would do is focus entirely on the prestige the ring, while caring little for the other riches. It all depends on whether dragons think in quantity or in quality!

If a dragon like Smaug thinks in quality, perhaps he would have become careless about the other riches since they paled in comparison the One Ring.
In this instance he probably would have been so consumed by the ring that he would have actively used it, in some way or another. Or at least look at it a lot, like Gollum.

If it's quantity, then, well the One Ring is just another piece of jewelry on top of his mound. And probably safer since he would distinguish less between its quality and the other riches.

I'm actually inclined to believe that dragons are quantitatively-minded. And that would be good news for the good people of ME!

[Jon S.]

I'd like to raise a different question, one I came across this evening in another LOTR forum and returned here (for the first time in quite a while) to present to the cognoscenti:

Did Smaug covet the Ring?

I actually think (though I'm not certain) I recall that in the last movie, Smaug actually saw it and commented on it without coveting it per se.

But never mind, we're discussing the book now. I can't recall ... Smaug obviously experienced Bilbo being invisible but did he ever actually "see" the Ring? And if not, did he - or could he, even - sense it?

If he did, why didn't he covet it?

If he didn't, had he seen it, do you think he would have?

The post some years ago that said he was a mere animal without a fëa suggests he would not have.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

Did Smaug covet the Ring?

... Smaug obviously experienced Bilbo being invisible but did he ever actually "see" the Ring? And if not, did he - or could he, even - sense it?

If he did, why didn't he covet it?

If he didn't, had he seen it, do you think he would have?

In the book, I don’t think Smaug ever saw Bilbo’s Ring. In fact, I don’t think he ever saw Bilbo! He smelled him, heard him, felt his air (probably referring to the draft coming from the secret entrance Bilbo and the Dwarves opened), but he never saw him. Ergo, he didn’t see the Ring, either.

Do you suppose Smaug even knew about the Rings of Power? And how old was he, anyway? Would he remember the end of the Second Age and the victory of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men over Sauron, for instance, or the War between Sauron and Eregion 1600 years before that, or even the end of the First Age? Or was he much younger: hatched sometime during the Third Age from survivors or descendents of First Age dragons? I am assuming that the older he was, the more likely he was know about the Rings of Power, simply because he’d have had more opportunity to find out: I don’t imagine dragons as particularly sociable creatures, so news might be a little slow in reaching them.

He could not covet what he did not know.

He would not covet what he had not seen.

But had he known and seen, well, he was, after all, a dragon. And that is covetousness.

I’m not certain dragons were without fëar.* They were certainly monstrous beasts; but were they, like Carcharoth, imbued with an evil spirit? If so, were all of them so imbued, since they apparently hatched (or were believed to hatch), or only some of them? Would that make them Barrow-wightish?â€* I don’t recall what Tolkien said on the subject, if anything.

---

* Note: fëar, pl of fëa, Quenya (High Elven) for “spirit�. As opposed to hröar, pl of hröa, “body�. Not to be confused with English “fear�.

â€* Barrow-wights were dead bodies inhabited by the spirits of Elves that refused the summons to Mandos, or so Tolkien implies. Which throws up another issue: were there evil Elves? Eöl and his son Maeglin seem to fit that description.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

In the book, I don’t think Smaug ever saw Bilbo’s Ring. In fact, I don’t think he ever saw Bilbo! He smelled him, heard him, felt his air (probably referring to the draft coming from the secret entrance Bilbo and the Dwarves opened), but he never saw him. Ergo, he didn’t see the Ring, either.
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He could not covet what he did not know.

He would not covet what he had not seen.

But had he known and seen, well, he was, after all, a dragon. And that is covetousness.
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I agree that Smaug did not see Bilbo, and therefore did not see the Ring. However - I think it's possible that he felt the Ring, probably without knowing just what it was. Just as the Ring called out to the Orcs who ambushed Isildur. It may even give another reason why he was willing to talk extensively with Bilbo. Whatever feeling he got from the Ring would have piqued his curiosity even further.

Not sure about his age. My guess is that he was born after the start of the 3rd Age, but I have nothing on which to base that. I don't recall exactly - were just 2 or maybe 3 dragons mentioned in the First Age tales (at least two slain). No stories of them in the Second Age (retreated into the far north, I suppose - maybe eating up the woolly mammoths), then a handfull of stories or mentions in the Third Age.

[Alcuin]

A little idle speculation…

Gandalf told Frodo, “The Ring had given [Gollum] power according to his stature.�

Galadriel echoed that when she told him, “Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others.�

Smaug had certainly trained his “will to the domination of others.�

So if Smaug had obtained the Ring and somehow tapped into it – choose any of Butterbeer’s options, or others that you can invent – would the dragon become aware of the Nazgûl, for instance? Or of the Three Keepers?

Sauron, I suspect, would soon become aware of Smaug’s possessing the Ring. How would he get it back? No one but a great power could withhold the Ring from Sauron, as Tolkien tells us in Letter 246,

Even from afar [Sauron] had an effect upon [the Ring], to make it work for its return to himself. In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of “mortals� no one, not even Aragorn.

So how would an encounter between Smaug and Sauron end? Was Smaug as powerful as, say, Elrond or Galadriel? Could they have withheld the Ring from Sauron, had they claimed it? Could Smaug?

─╫─

An interesting side question is how Galadriel knew what Gandalf had told Frodo: Gandalf doesn’t seem to have visited Lórien between April 3018 and his death in Moria the following January.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

A little idle speculation…
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An interesting side question is how Galadriel knew what Gandalf had told Frodo: Gandalf doesn’t seem to have visited Lórien between April 3018 and his death in Moria the following January.

Idle speculation is what this thread is all about. And yes - Smaug would have made a formidable possessor of the One Ring.

On communication between Gandalf and Galadriel. Yes - I think the greater rings may allow for some kind of communications link between wearers. It explains a lot. I think even so far as explaining much of what is known of Isildur's demise. And also how - Galadriel feared that if Sauron obtained the One, all that she had done would be laid bare, as in - exposed to him. I don't know if a Hobbit (or a man, even such a man as Isildur) could have read the thoughts of others, but I think their thoughts may have been open to the wielders of the Three, when they put on the One. Was not Celebrimbor aware of Sauron as soon as he made and put on the One? And I think the Three could have communication with one another. Even as they journey to their abodes, late in LOTR (in Dunland, I think); Elrond, Gandalf, Galadriel (maybe Celeborn too - but is he participant, or merely bystander?) appear to sit around all through the night, communicating via telepathy or something. Is it an Elvish thing (with Gandalf admitted as a Maia?) or is it their rings?

Forgot to mention - yes, I think the Ring would have grown to fit even a dragon-sized finger.

[Butterbeer]

He could not covet what he did not know.

He would not covet what he had not seen.

But had he known and seen, well, he was, after all, a dragon. And that is covetousness.

Alcuin... (above) ...
Pretty much nail on the head ref how i see it regarding Jon's question

Interesting thread though.

On a more practical note: (and apologies if this has been mentioned) how would he wear the ring?

I doubt it would fit snugly (and certainly not securely) onto a Talon (too big)...

Whilst he could perhaps force someone to forge it onto a chain for him...

bar the style or Dragonista bling element, that would be no use as you need wear the ring...

Nose piercing? Cool looking perhaps? (though Tolkien didn't say much ref Dragon fashions and anyway likely wasn't up-to-date on the vagaries of such things ) ... either way same problem ref the Ring as above chain example...


But had Smaug gotten the ring, and somehow managed to wear it?

Would he be invisable?

Were he invisable - presumably Bard would be killed, and Lake Town burned and sunk... The Elves would stay at home partying in the woods with their "keep off the Grass" signs and slightly over the top approach to strangers walking into their glades...

and Bolg and the Boyz?
Still leg it to Erebor? If they did, would they Fall under Smaug's Dominion?

Remember he cant easily take the ring on or off (presumably..although in this instance we are somehow presuming he got it on...)

therefore hes just an invisable voice... could be tricky convincing them...

Mind you- admittedly i'd assume his flames were visiable, and his voice (obviously) would still be audiable.... and the sound of his flight, roars and his tail smiting mountainsides etc...

therefore i suppose he could easily put bolg and his boyz from Gundabad and the misty mountains under his Dominion...

But, if he did wear the Ring, how long before Sauron would know?
Instantly?

If not he'd likely find out soonish.

What would happen then?

[Insidious Rex]

I like the idea of a Dragon with a nose ring. But the original question begs the question is the ring self malleable? I mean it did fit snugly on Saurons giant [movie] fingers and Bilbos/Frodos tiny ones. Does the ring have any control over its sizing ability when it wants to be found/worn? My guess is no but its worth asking. As for the dragon, I think this is one of those universe mixing questions. Tolkien didnt have in mind the potential of others using the ring in any form in The Hobbit like he did in Lord of the Rings where the concept of others wielding it is discussed to some level. Now my question is what would have happened if he had eaten Bilbo and therefore the ring? Would he become invisible or do you have to have it on your finger? And would he have been able to feel something powerful and evil passing through his gut? Or would he have thought it was just a bad Dwarf he just ate? (which begs the next question... does Smaug eat and if so what does he eat? I dont remeber any mention of him feeding on Laketown men since he landed on the mountain. And the dwarves havent been around since then either. Does he eat wild animals? You would think he would be noticed hunting down an elk or a bear or something. Or is he in an extended state of inactivity where food isnt necessary for long stretches? Python like.)

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

…does Smaug eat and if so what does he eat? I dont remeber any mention of him feeding on Laketown men since he landed on the mountain. And the dwarves havent been around since then either. Does he eat wild animals? You would think he would be noticed hunting down an elk or a bear or something. Or is he in an extended state of inactivity where food isnt necessary for long stretches? Python like.)

In The Hobbit, Smaug himself says he ate six of Thorin & Co’s ponies right away. “Horses and ponies� had been provided by the Men of Lake-town. The text indicates, but does not explicitly state, the Dwarves rode ponies to the Lonely Mountain, so there were at least 14 ponies and some horses as pack animals. (“Here they were joined by the horses with other provisions and necessaries and the ponies for their own use that had been sent to meet them,� at the north end of the Long Lake; Chapter 11, �On the Doorstep�) Three ponies were later found alive with the assistance of the ravens of the Mountain.

Smaug also tells Bilbo, “I know the smell (and taste) of dwarf – no one better.�

In the very first chapter, Thorin tells Bilbo, “…Smaug could not creep into a hole that size … after devouring so many of the dwarves and men of Dale.� Shortly afterwards, he adds, “he used to crawl out of the great gate and come by night to Dale, and carry away people, especially maidens, to eat, until Dale was ruined, and all the people dead or gone.�

In addition, Smaug destroyed all the pleasant land around the Mountain to create a desert, in part to better see anyone approaching his lair, in part (possibly) because he was an (innately?) evil creature and preferred ruin and desert to pleasant fields and forest.

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

…is he in an extended state of inactivity where food isnt necessary for long stretches? Python like.)

I’ve no idea what the Legendary Black Beast of Aaaaarrrrrrggghhh ate between the carving on his cave wall and the arrival of Brother Maynard.

Originally Posted by Valandil

I agree that Smaug did not see Bilbo, and therefore did not see the Ring. However - I think it's possible that he felt the Ring, probably without knowing just what it was. Just as the Ring called out to the Orcs who ambushed Isildur. It may even give another reason why he was willing to talk extensively with Bilbo. Whatever feeling he got from the Ring would have piqued his curiosity even further.

That idea is made explicit in Peter Jackson’s film.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

In the very first chapter, Thorin tells Bilbo, “…Smaug could not creep into a hole that size … after devouring so many of the dwarves and men of Dale.� Shortly afterwards, he adds, “he used to crawl out of the great gate and come by night to Dale, and carry away people, especially maidens, to eat, until Dale was ruined, and all the people dead or gone.�

This always had me wondering, what are all the maidens of Dale doing outside at night?!