|
04-18-2008, 05:01 AM | #1 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
Great thread! This would make an outstanding "alternative ending"
Maedhros's quote is highly pertinent, as it suggests that only Gandalf could wield the Ring and destroy Sauron fully. Based on how the Ring affected the likes of Galadriel, I'd say that Smaug's considerable existing vanities and vices would have ballooned to epic proportions. He would not rest until he had gathered all the treasure of all the world into a great big pile to sit on. Entire civilisations would be devoted to producing and providing tribute. Teams of crack sages would labour night and day to come up with novel and interesting ways to flatter him. Imagine the entire world enslaved to a single private equity fund manager. A bit like it is now, except with only one of 'em. |
04-18-2008, 11:51 AM | #2 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
|
|
04-18-2008, 12:41 PM | #3 |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
It is not as simple as that. Smaug would have big problems.
Firstly, the holders of the Three would soon understand that Smaug had got the Ring. And so would Sauron - freshly returned to Mordor. There will be a dragon-hunt opened: who gets Smaug first. The "good guys" will try to beat Sauron to it. The Ring as such is not a great asset in combat (ask Sauron), and dragons were known to be killed by mere Men (like Fram). I don't think ol'Smaug would last long... |
10-03-2013, 03:38 PM | #4 |
Sapling
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 3
|
Smaug and the ring, eh?
What I would say what would happen if he did get the ring, he would keep it to himself until the 13 dwarves with Bilbo and Gandalf came to slay him!
Last edited by The One Ring, The Precous : 10-03-2013 at 03:40 PM. |
04-18-2008, 01:02 PM | #5 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
So, how did they not know that Gollum had it?
(CAB: thanks, nice that the effort was appreciated. I must confess, however: the joke is nicked from Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy.) |
04-18-2008, 04:18 PM | #6 |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
Because neither Gollum nor Bilbo ever tried to take over the world using the Ring, did they?
If Smaug would just add the Ring to his hoard and sleep on it (as he might well do), or even use it occasionally to hunt invisible, then neither Sauron or the Wise would feel anything. But if the dragon decided to steal all the gold in ME and become the Lord - Smaug the Magnificent (the scenario you were discussing) then, I believe he would have the abovementioned problems. |
04-18-2008, 04:54 PM | #7 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
|
Quote:
As The Gaffer said, how would anyone know if Smaug had the Ring? If the Ring went unused it might sit in Smaug's hoard unnoticed by the Wise or Sauron for who knows how long. It probably needed to be worn to be noticed and I for one really question that the Ring would expand enough to fit a dragon's claw. It did change sizes, presumably because Sauron could still shift shape when the Ring was forged, but it seems unlikely that Sauron could or would make himself dragon-sized. So why would the Ring be designed to fit a dragon? But for the sake of argument (and since there isn't anything to indicate it wasn't possible either) let's assume Smaug could wear the Ring. What use would he find in it? I'm guessing - not too much. The Ring's real power is providing control over others and dragons don't appear to be much interested in this kind of control. Glaurung even went so far as to chase off his servants when he occupied Narogthrond. Still, the Ring would probably have no problem tempting Smaug just as it tempted so many others (even Sam, who also had little desire to control other people). What if the Wise and/or Sauron became aware of Smaug's possession of the Ring? Well, if Sauron knew and the Wise didn't and Smaug was unable to use the Ring, I think Sauron might have just left it there, at least for a while. He would have been better off conquering Middle Earth first (and he didn't need the Ring for that) than wasting resources trying to recover the Ring while also drawing attention to the one way he could be defeated. Who could Sauron have sent to retrieve the Ring? With their fear of fire, the Nazgul weren't suited for such a mission. I would think that Sauron would have had to personally confront Smaug. If the Wise knew and Sauron didn't, then probably an attempt to recover the Ring quietly (almost certainly involving a short, furry-footed patsy) would have been made first. If this failed, force might have been used, but this may have proved a rather difficult task (at least if it weren't for the bare spot on Smaug's chest). If both parties knew about Smaug's possession, then I agree with Gordis, a race would have ensued and I'm guessing it would have been very messy. I guess, in the end, Smaug couldn't have survived this pursuit of the Ring, but I wouldn't underestimate the damage he could have caused in the meantime. Gandalf feared even for Rivendell should Smaug attack it. When this thread was first active, the question of whether or not Smaug would have become invisible should he wear the Ring was discussed. I would guess not. Invisibility seems to be tied to access to the Spirit World. Sauron, Gandalf, and the Elves didn't turn invisible because they already had this access. According to Gordis's theory, Dwarves didn't turn invisible because, for them, access to the Sprit World was impossible. Men / Hobbits were capable of seeing the Spirit World, but not without aid. The rings of power gave them this aid, therefore they became invisible while wearing them. I would think that, due to dragons' origins and nature, Smaug saw in the Spirit World without aid, and so, would have remained visible should he have worn the Ring. |
|
04-18-2008, 05:21 PM | #8 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
There's also the question of whether Smaug, if the ring grew to fit him, would ever try it on. If the ring grew, he must have realised he was not holding a mere gadget, but a ring of power. And no doubt he knew of those rings and that they could enslave the bearer. I doubt he'd have tried it on in that case.
Another scenario is: Smaug finding the ring, thinking: "Hey, that looks spiffy, I've got just this small spot left uncovered in the hollow under my arm. This will fit perfectly... "
__________________
We are not things. |
04-18-2008, 05:30 PM | #9 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
Quote:
I think Smaug was an animal. Nor an evil spirit in animal form as Glaurung was hinted to be - but a natural, albeit clever, animal, like a wolf or an eagle or a Meara horse. An animal has no fëa. The access to the spirit world (I guess) is only possible for beings with fëar. In the case of Maiar and Calaquendi, who dwell in both words, fëar can go at will here and there, while hroar remain in the World off Light. Another case are Men or hobbits, whose fear have no natural access to the World of Shadow and who are more "burdened" with hroar than Elves - at least it in hinted at in the Osanwe-kenta. I believe for their fëar to venture into the World of Shadow, the rings had to transfer their hroar there as well, making them invisible. Dwarves were so made that their fëar and hroar couldn't be transferred even by the Rings. As for animals, what was the point to transfer their hroar into the Spirit World if they had no fëar to act there? Quote:
Maybe yes, and maybe not. Sauron, being the Ringlord and a competent Ring-user, probably could choose whether to turn invisible or not. Gandalf and the Elves had the Three Rings that didn't have the invisibility option at all. [“The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings: ... they did not confer invisibility.” - L #131]. We don't know what would happen if they put on the One or one of the Nine. Perhaps they would turn invisible by default, until they mastered the Ring. |
||
04-18-2008, 05:45 PM | #10 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
|
Quote:
Was Glaurung supposed to be that unique among dragons? I don't remember that. |
|
04-18-2008, 05:45 PM | #11 | ||
Elf Lady
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In the lands where mountains are but a fairytale
Posts: 8,588
|
Quote:
Quote:
Besides, to Sauron, the Ring was not a possible deathly object. As Gandalf says at least two times: Sauron cannot even think of the possibility that someone might want to destroy the Ring rather then using it for himself. Just wanted to add that
__________________
Love always, deeply and true ★ Friends are those rare people who ask how we are and then wait to hear the answer. ★ Friendship is sharing openly, laughing often, trusting always, caring deeply.
...The Earth laughs in flowers ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson, "Hamatreya"... |
||
04-18-2008, 05:50 PM | #12 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
04-18-2008, 05:57 PM | #13 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
04-18-2008, 05:59 PM | #14 | ||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
|
Quote:
Quote:
Thanks for your comments. We don't always have as many participants in the books forums as we would like. |
||
04-18-2008, 06:07 PM | #15 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
|
Quote:
EDIT: Thanks Gordis, but has this really never been suggested before? Well, anyway, I think it is probably the best explanation. Last edited by CAB : 04-18-2008 at 06:25 PM. Reason: Missed this before |
|
04-19-2008, 06:59 AM | #16 | |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
|
From wiki:
Quote:
__________________
"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 04-19-2008 at 07:00 AM. |
|
04-19-2008, 08:38 AM | #17 |
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
I see. Thanks for posting the quote, BoP.
It seems Tolkien used the term differently - as he never calls Beorn a "werebear" The werewolves also seem not to be shape-shifters, but some evil spirits in animal form. |
04-19-2008, 09:00 AM | #18 | ||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
Thanks BoP, that's much clearer than my short post. (Didn't know the 'were' came from 'man', I've always thought it related to 'weather'.)
Quote:
Quote:
(But I have to say skin-changer sounds far more interesting than were-bear or furrier. )
__________________
We are not things. |
||
04-19-2008, 09:00 AM | #19 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
|
Tolkien's were-creatures aren't necessarily that different from the others in literature and folklore in my opinion. He retained the most important feature: a person's spirit trapped inside the body of an animal.
Gordis, I must admit I'm still not convinced that Glaurung was so different from Smaug and the other dragons. I wonder why, for instance, Morgoth and Sauron would imprison spirits in what seems to be a large number of wolves (werewolves) but only one dragon. Certainly dragons must have been a larger "investment", so why skimp on the spirits? Also, it is said that Bilbo was in great danger of falling under Smaug's spell. Would a mere animal be capable of putting people under spells? I'm not really sure what to think of this. |
04-19-2008, 09:34 AM | #20 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
|
Quote:
"Wereworms of the Last Desert" in the Hobbit seem to be just a colorful detail, without any precise background. I think that Tolkien first considered shape-shifting to be quite widely spread: hence Beorn and wereworms in the Hobbit, werewolves in LOTR, Radagast called "a master of shapes and changes of hue", nazgul changing shape into vultures in LOTR drafts etc. Later, when Tolkien was completing LOTR, he decided that shape-shifting was a rare thing, only possible for some self-incarnate Maiar, like First Age Sauron, or for Luthien. Sauron after his first death already lost this ability, and I doubt that Gandalf or Saruman ever could do it. Nazgul certainly not - as the LOTR now stands. With this, Tolkien may have re-thought his werewolves from original shape-shifters to spirits trapped in wolf bodies. Then the final touches to the new conception were made in Morgoth's Ring. I think Smaug in the Hobbit was never meant to be an evil spirit in animal form, just a very clever (and malicious) animal, on par with Great Eagles, Huan, Carcharoth, Mearas etc. Quote:
As for Smaug's spell, I think it was not "a spell" as such, but a reference to the hypnotizing power of Dragon's eyes - a widely spread notion in folklore. Snakes produce the same effect on mice and small birds without any magic involved. Last edited by Gordis : 04-19-2008 at 09:37 AM. |
||
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
What All Was Wrong with PJ's LOTR | Wally | Lord of the Rings Movies | 425 | 08-14-2016 08:43 AM |
How to take a Ring from an unwilling Ring-wielder? - crazy ideas | Gordis | Middle Earth | 217 | 10-03-2013 03:43 PM |
Stranger than fiction... Real "Rings" | frodosampippinmerry | Lord of the Rings Books | 15 | 03-09-2009 07:55 PM |
Ring's sentience and Ring detection | Gordis | Lord of the Rings Books | 17 | 01-04-2008 09:37 AM |
Why did the Ring betray Isildur? | Nurvingiel | Middle Earth | 138 | 12-24-2007 01:52 PM |