travilling ove seas

samwiselvr2008 · 07-13-2002, 02:46 PM

My friend told me that whene a charicter travelled over the seas (i think thats how tolkien put it, maybe passed over the seas?)that they had died, but i don't know if thats true or not! what do you think?

samwiselvr2008 · 07-13-2002, 02:51 PM

sorry! i don't know why this went into the movie place, it's suposed to be with the books, thats where i wanted it to go, and that is where i tried to make it go, i even tried posting it in that section! is it my computer, or what?

Faramir · 07-13-2002, 03:03 PM

Going to the Undying Lands is like a healing for your heart. The people choose when they think they want to die. So they don't die right away when they cross the seas.

***IronParrot*** · 07-13-2002, 07:23 PM

Moving it to the right forum...

samwiselvr2008 · 07-13-2002, 09:10 PM

thanks! now i fill better to know that everyone's not dead! that went over seas i mean!

The Ringbearer · 07-13-2002, 10:54 PM

What I thought was that they went to Valinor(where all the "gods" like Varda and Manwe live), and were immortal there? I like to think that they were immortal, but I have no proof to support my theory....

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 07-13-2002, 10:55 PM

Well, it's called the Undying Lands, so of course that means deathless. Right? However, death did occur in Valinor with the demise of Mireal, and the murder of Finwe, and the Kinslaying. All this is from the Silmarillion, and if you haven't read that, then this info will be meaningless to you. But, if you are refering to the crossing of the sea at the end of LotRs, then to explain that, they went to Tol-Eresea in the "last riding of the keepers of the Rings" This was where Frodo, Bilbo, Sam, and Gimli went. This does not insure their immortality, but gave them a chance to heal from their burdons that were imposed upon them when they bore the ring. Gimli was a special exception.

The Ringbearer · 07-13-2002, 11:05 PM

I've read ~ 1 half's worth. I can't plough straight through it quite yet

. So, you can be killed, but you won't die of old age? It's hard to base this on the Sil, because only elves and the Valar lived there, and they don't die......

Oh boy....

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 07-13-2002, 11:21 PM

It's complicated. The Elves were immortal, the Valor were immortal. The Elves were never really meant to live in Valinor, but when the world became so unsafe, the Valar invited them to come there and live with them. Death for Elves was rare and exceptional, hence the death of Mireal. But yes, they could be slain, just as they could be slain in Middle-earth. When Frodo and the others set sail across sea at the end of LotRs, as I said, they went to Tol-Eressea, not Valinor per se. Tol-Eressea was an island that was a part of the Undying Lands, but not. Eventually, the Undying Land were removed from the circles of the world.

cassiopeia · 07-14-2002, 01:17 AM

I never understood what happened to Frodo until I read the Silmarillion. The Silmarillion is difficult to read and I found it tough at first, but now I think it is equal or even better than LOTR. I thought Frodo went to the undying lands and was healed and eventually died of old age, as did Sam, Bilbo and Gimli.

samwiselvr2008 · 07-14-2002, 01:33 PM

so, they can only die of eather:
1. old age
2. if someone kills them or
3. if they chouse to die
??? i'm not understanding your answers! help!

Radagast The Brown · 07-14-2002, 02:42 PM

Gimli, Bilbo and Frodo HAVE to die, it's the nature. Iluvatar did that.

the elves could die just if:
1. they want/choose to
2. someone kill them

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 07-14-2002, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by samwiselvr2008
so, they can only die of eather:
1. old age
2. if someone kills them or
3. if they chouse to die
??? i'm not understanding your answers! help!

Radagast the Brown is correct. Elves died not until the world dies unless they are slain or waste in grief and to both these deaths they are subject. Valinor was the land of the Valar, not the land of the Elves, but because the Elves were deathless, the Valar invited them to come to Valinor. Frodo, Bilbo and Sam were Hobbits which was an offshoot of Man. The gift of Iluvatar to Man was death. the fact that the Hobbits went to Tol-Eressea, did not make them immortal. The Gift of Iluvatar could not be taken back, so they did die.

**Nurvingiel** · 09-25-2002, 10:52 PM

Also, the Grey havens has at least two locations. If you go there, you're not just aimlessly sailing over the sea. I think there's one in the south with Cirdan the Shipwright (the origional bearer of the elf-ring that Gandalf now has) and another in the North, or something like that.

The Grey Havens are West of Middle Earth. Middle Earth is only a small part of Ea. There are things West, East, North and South of it.

In terms of death, other Entmooters explained that well, that Elves are immortal and do not die. They can be slain.

However, the only Elves that are allowed to choose death are Half Elves. This is outlined in the Silmarillion, but basically, the only Half Elves are the descendants of Luthien Tinuviel (an Elf) and Beren One-Handed (a Man.) Elrond and Arwen (+ brothers) and other people I ignored were allowed to choose whether they'd me mortal or immortal. No other Elves are allowed to do this, as it was a special exception made my Manwe.

Artanis · 09-26-2002, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
However, the only Elves that are allowed to choose death are Half Elves. This is outlined in the Silmarillion, but basically, the only Half Elves are the descendants of Luthien Tinuviel (an Elf) and Beren One-Handed (a Man.) Elrond and Arwen (+ brothers) and other people I ignored were allowed to choose whether they'd me mortal or immortal. No other Elves are allowed to do this, as it was a special exception made my Manwe.

The Elves could also choose to die of grief. I think that is what Radagast is referring to in p.1 in (Help! Radagast, are you he or she? I'll take a 50% chance

) her previous post.

The Ringbearer · 09-26-2002, 06:54 AM

So Frodo and all the others did not actually go to VALINOR? Not the place where the Valar live?

Also, in Morgoth's Ring, I read that when Frodo and Co. left to...where ever they went, that they did for sure die, and that the reason for going there was to be completely healed of all bodily illness, and be completely happy (?) until they died.

Yay! I think I actually got it straightened out in my mind!

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 09-26-2002, 10:57 AM

Quote:

So Frodo and all the others did not actually go to VALINOR? Not the place where the Valar live?

That is correct. They went to Tol Eressea. It was a large island created by the upheavels of the destruction of the Lamps of the Valar.Tol Eressea originally was located in the middle of Belegaer. The island was uprooted by Ulmo and brought to the Bay of Balar to transport the Eldar to Aman. On its first mooring, a portion of the island grounded and broke off to form the Isle of Balar.

After conveying the Vanyar and the Noldor to Aman, Ulmo returned for the Teleri. During the course of this second voyage, Osse begged Ulmo not to take these Elves away from his home in the sea, and so Ulmo anchored the island in the Bay of Eldamar. The easternmost of the Undying Lands. Tol Eressea, especially its western shore was bathed in the light of the Two Trees, and here grew the first flowers outside Valinor.

Ñólendil · 09-26-2002, 07:30 PM

Thank you SGH. I never read "convey" used in such a way, didn't know it could have that sense. Another wrinkle for the brain.

markedel · 09-26-2002, 07:43 PM

Why wouldn't Frodo go to Valinor? It's not as if the eldar weren't forgiven and allowed to go there eventually...

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 09-26-2002, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ñólendil
Thank you SGH. I never read "convey" used in such a way, didn't know it could have that sense. Another wrinkle for the brain.

You are very welcome Nolendil, but I can not take credit for another man's work. some of my explanation came from Foster. That was his word, not mine. I think he is older then I am

07-13-2002, 02:46 PM	#1
samwiselvr2008 Elf Lord Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Hobbiton Posts: 739	travilling ove seas My friend told me that whene a charicter travelled over the seas (i think thats how tolkien put it, maybe passed over the seas?)that they had died, but i don't know if thats true or not! what do you think? __________________ Jesus loves you! Movie vewing count from the theater: Return of the King:9 Two Towers: 11 Fellowship: 13 FRODO LIVES!

07-13-2002, 02:51 PM	#2
samwiselvr2008 Elf Lord Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Hobbiton Posts: 739	sorry! i don't know why this went into the movie place, it's suposed to be with the books, thats where i wanted it to go, and that is where i tried to make it go, i even tried posting it in that section! is it my computer, or what? __________________ Jesus loves you! Movie vewing count from the theater: Return of the King:9 Two Towers: 11 Fellowship: 13 FRODO LIVES!

07-13-2002, 03:03 PM	#3
Faramir Elven Warrior Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ithilien Posts: 353	Going to the Undying Lands is like a healing for your heart. The people choose when they think they want to die. So they don't die right away when they cross the seas. __________________ This is the Window of the Sunset, Henneth Annun, fairest of all the falls of Ithilien, land of many fountains."-Faramir, Chapter IV, The Two Towers ========================== FRODO LIVES!!! ========================== YODA IS DA MAN!!! ========================== I Love Jesus!

07-13-2002, 07:23 PM	#4
*IronParrot* Fowl Administrator Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Calgary or Edmonton, Canada Posts: 53,420	Moving it to the right forum... __________________ All of IronParrot's posts are guaranteed to be 100% intelligent and/or sarcastic, comprising no genetically modified content and tested on no cute furry little animals unless the SPCA is looking elsewhere. If you observe a failure to uphold this warranty, please contact a forum administrator immediately to receive a full refund on your Entmoot registration. Blog: Nick's Café Canadien

07-13-2002, 09:10 PM	#5
samwiselvr2008 Elf Lord Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Hobbiton Posts: 739	thanks! now i fill better to know that everyone's not dead! that went over seas i mean! __________________ Jesus loves you! Movie vewing count from the theater: Return of the King:9 Two Towers: 11 Fellowship: 13 FRODO LIVES!

07-13-2002, 10:54 PM	#6
The Ringbearer Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Crickhollow in the summer, and Rivendell in the winter Posts: 397	What I thought was that they went to Valinor(where all the "gods" like Varda and Manwe live), and were immortal there? I like to think that they were immortal, but I have no proof to support my theory.... __________________ 'Go away, and never come back!!' '......what?' 'But you're a part of this world! Aren't you?' Frodo lives!

07-13-2002, 10:55 PM	#7
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Well, it's called the Undying Lands, so of course that means deathless. Right? However, death did occur in Valinor with the demise of Mireal, and the murder of Finwe, and the Kinslaying. All this is from the Silmarillion, and if you haven't read that, then this info will be meaningless to you. But, if you are refering to the crossing of the sea at the end of LotRs, then to explain that, they went to Tol-Eresea in the "last riding of the keepers of the Rings" This was where Frodo, Bilbo, Sam, and Gimli went. This does not insure their immortality, but gave them a chance to heal from their burdons that were imposed upon them when they bore the ring. Gimli was a special exception.

07-13-2002, 11:05 PM	#8
The Ringbearer Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Crickhollow in the summer, and Rivendell in the winter Posts: 397	I've read ~ 1 half's worth. I can't plough straight through it quite yet . So, you can be killed, but you won't die of old age? It's hard to base this on the Sil, because only elves and the Valar lived there, and they don't die...... Oh boy.... __________________ 'Go away, and never come back!!' '......what?' 'But you're a part of this world! Aren't you?' Frodo lives!

07-13-2002, 11:21 PM	#9
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	It's complicated. The Elves were immortal, the Valor were immortal. The Elves were never really meant to live in Valinor, but when the world became so unsafe, the Valar invited them to come there and live with them. Death for Elves was rare and exceptional, hence the death of Mireal. But yes, they could be slain, just as they could be slain in Middle-earth. When Frodo and the others set sail across sea at the end of LotRs, as I said, they went to Tol-Eressea, not Valinor per se. Tol-Eressea was an island that was a part of the Undying Lands, but not. Eventually, the Undying Land were removed from the circles of the world.

07-14-2002, 01:17 AM	#10
cassiopeia Viggoholic Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 1,749	I never understood what happened to Frodo until I read the Silmarillion. The Silmarillion is difficult to read and I found it tough at first, but now I think it is equal or even better than LOTR. I thought Frodo went to the undying lands and was healed and eventually died of old age, as did Sam, Bilbo and Gimli. __________________ Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.

07-14-2002, 01:33 PM	#11
samwiselvr2008 Elf Lord Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Hobbiton Posts: 739	so, they can only die of eather: 1. old age 2. if someone kills them or 3. if they chouse to die ??? i'm not understanding your answers! help! __________________ Jesus loves you! Movie vewing count from the theater: Return of the King:9 Two Towers: 11 Fellowship: 13 FRODO LIVES!

07-14-2002, 02:42 PM	#12
Radagast The Brown Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Israel Posts: 6,975	Gimli, Bilbo and Frodo HAVE to die, it's the nature. Iluvatar did that. the elves could die just if: 1. they want/choose to 2. someone kill them __________________ Lalala... poof! AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

09-25-2002, 10:52 PM	#14
Nurvingiel Co-President of Entmoot Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 8,397	The Grey havens is not just an idea. Also, the Grey havens has at least two locations. If you go there, you're not just aimlessly sailing over the sea. I think there's one in the south with Cirdan the Shipwright (the origional bearer of the elf-ring that Gandalf now has) and another in the North, or something like that. The Grey Havens are West of Middle Earth. Middle Earth is only a small part of Ea. There are things West, East, North and South of it. In terms of death, other Entmooters explained that well, that Elves are immortal and do not die. They can be slain. However, the only Elves that are allowed to choose death are Half Elves. This is outlined in the Silmarillion, but basically, the only Half Elves are the descendants of Luthien Tinuviel (an Elf) and Beren One-Handed (a Man.) Elrond and Arwen (+ brothers) and other people I ignored were allowed to choose whether they'd me mortal or immortal. No other Elves are allowed to do this, as it was a special exception made my Manwe.

09-26-2002, 06:54 AM	#16
The Ringbearer Elven Warrior Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Crickhollow in the summer, and Rivendell in the winter Posts: 397	So Frodo and all the others did not actually go to VALINOR? Not the place where the Valar live? Also, in Morgoth's Ring, I read that when Frodo and Co. left to...where ever they went, that they did for sure die, and that the reason for going there was to be completely healed of all bodily illness, and be completely happy (?) until they died. Yay! I think I actually got it straightened out in my mind! __________________ 'Go away, and never come back!!' '......what?' 'But you're a part of this world! Aren't you?' Frodo lives!

09-26-2002, 07:30 PM	#18
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Thank you SGH. I never read "convey" used in such a way, didn't know it could have that sense. Another wrinkle for the brain. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

09-26-2002, 07:43 PM	#19
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	Why wouldn't Frodo go to Valinor? It's not as if the eldar weren't forgiven and allowed to go there eventually... __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"