Could Smaug have destroyed Rivendell?

The Lady of Ithilien · 12-16-2002, 10:22 AM

In the appendices to The Lord of the Rings there is an account of the meeting of Thorin and Gandalf at the Inn in Bree which says that Gandalf was worried how Sauron might use Smaug "with terrible effect," and he later says to the hobbits that Smaug might have destroyed Rivendell.

That raises some questions.

-- Wouldn't the power of Elrond's ring have prevented that, either directly somehow (it seemed to be associated with water), or perhaps in conjunction with the remaining Noldor in Rivendell, indirectly by "hiding" Rivendell from Smaug, even from the air?

-- Why Rivendell? There was already a conflict in progress, according to Haldir, between Lorien and Dol Guldur: if Sauron could influence the dragon, wouldn't he have already done so against Lorien? Or had Galadriel somehow prevented that because she could see straight through the darkness?

-- What treasures in Rivendell and Lorien of the material kind that dragons crave would there be to draw Smaug away from his golden bed in Erebor, anyway?

Cirdan · 12-16-2002, 10:36 AM

I would say it would be dependent on the situation. Most dragon slayings were very particular in requiring a magic sword, an extraordinary warrior, or, as was the case with Smaug, some special information and a lot of luck. Rivendell had these things at thier disposal, but if the attack had come as part of the war of the ring it would have been disasterous for Rivendell. It is doubtful that anything could lure Smaug from the treasure under the Lonely Mountain, but being a creation of Melkor, I'm wondering if Smaug would have been at the command of Sauron. It may or may not have required the power of the ring. Smaug certainly would have shifted the balance of power during the the war.

Dunadan · 12-16-2002, 10:45 AM

I reckon he'd have had a few problems with the terrain. I agree it's odd that Rivendell is mentioned; it would make more sense from Smaug's point of view to head for the Iron Hills or even the Blue Mountains where there's more booty to be had.

I'm not sure I understand JRRT's logic in Gandalf thinking it would be a sensible idea to send Thorin, Bilbo and co off to duff up Smaug. Why not get them to trash Barad-dur while they're at it? It smacks of rather tenuous post-hoc rationalisation to me.

cheers

d.

CurunÃr · 12-16-2002, 11:00 AM

"It had been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the rings of power..."
LOTR, chapter 2.

Lefty Scaevola · 12-16-2002, 11:14 AM

Rivendale likely has an acumulation of treasure which would be mildly interesting to the dragon; but it would likely take some serious persuation by Sauron to motivate him to go for it. The dragon, combined with Misty Mountain Orks would likely be an adequate force for bagging Rivendell (but with so much of the power of the attacker represnted in the one entity, Smaug, a chance stroke could snafu the entire attack), which is not much of a miliatry power by the end of the third age. Glaurung and ork/men armies did a sound thrashing to much more powerful Nodorin Kingdoms in the the War of the Jewels.

Elfhelm · 12-16-2002, 12:25 PM

If I understand it correctly, Sauron was in Mirkwood at the time. Rivendell united with Lothlorien to drive those forces out of Mirkwood during the War of the Rings. So there was a strategical reason for Gandalf to worry about it.

Going back to the Fall of Gondolin, Sauron needed his full force of orcs, balrogs, and dragons to destroy it. It would probably have required more than Smaug to accomplish the destruction of Rivendell. Add to that how he really prefered working with his more obedient balrogs because dragons were too self-serving. He would probably have needed to bring in the Balrog that the dwarves released in Khazad-Dum.

So I think it's true that the death of Smaug and the destruction of the Balrog in Khazad-Dum tipped the balance in the end so that Merry and Eowyn were truly able to turn the tide of battle on that lucky day.

Lollypopgurl · 12-16-2002, 06:46 PM

Yeah, I remember reading that. The fact that the rings of power can be consumed by dragon flame, that is.

I think Rivendell would have been able to withstand the attack even if Elrond's ring got incinerated(sp?). Dale managed it.

afro-elf · 12-17-2002, 12:37 AM

Quote:

It had been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the rings of power..."

what is the rest of that quote?

***KhamÃ»l*** · 12-17-2002, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CurunÃ*r
"It had been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the rings of power..."
LOTR, chapter 2.

...but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself. [emphasis added]

I was thinking about the rest of that line even before you mentioned it, afro-elf.

BeardofPants · 12-17-2002, 01:12 AM

Your small fire, of course, would not melt even ordinary gold. This Ring has already passed through it unscathed, and even unheated. But there is no smith's forge in this Shire that could change it at all. Not even the anvils and furnaces of the Dwarves could do that. It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Acalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself.

Damn you Khamul! I typed that all out for nothing!

Personally, I doubt that Rivendell would be that easy for the enemy to find... with Elrond bearing Vilya -- hiding the realm, so to speak.

Coney · 12-17-2002, 01:46 AM

Rememer Smaug had a weak spot. If Bard could spot, and hit, the weak spot on the wyrms belly then a couple of hundred Elven archers at Rivendell would have him shot and skinned before he was within a mile of the place

The only reason I could guess that Sauron would send Smaug to attack Rivendell would be to prevent Rivendell sending/giving any aid to others

........ Sauron didn't have troops available/capable of such a journey, to accost Rivendell..........so why not send a dirty great Wyrm?

Turgon · 12-17-2002, 07:29 PM

The Elves would have had no problem spotting the bald spot in those dragon scales. Smaug wouldnâ€™t have been much of a problem to Elrond and crew.

As for strategic advantages, Iâ€™m not sure of what it could be. But, in the years that preceded the war of the last alliance, Sauron was desperately trying to destroy Rivendell, only with the help of Gil-galad and the Numenoreans, were Saurons plans of the ruin of Rivendell not met.

In those days Sauron could have gone after Amroth or Galadriel in Lorien not far away (not sure who ruled that region at that time?), Thrandruil at Mirkwood near by, and Gil-galad the biggest threat to him, but farthest away. All three of these Elves were way bigger threats than Elrond in Rivendell (by sheer size).

So if we could answer why Sauron wanted to destroy Rivendell in the years that preceded the last alliance (what did he fear so much there), we might be able to answer why Gandalf feared Sauron might try it again.

Cirdan · 12-17-2002, 09:16 PM

Why would Sauron need a reason to want to destroy Rivendell? Wrecking Middle Earth and killing the children of Iluvatar seems to be his sole occupation. I wonder about the abilities of Rivendell to defend against the dragon. Nargothrond was destroyed by Glaurung even though the Elves were much stronger at that time. It has a great advantage of terrain, but a sneak attack by a dragon would be pretty nasty.

I always thought Bard's shot was... extremely lucky. Hitting a small spot on a flying dragon while being incinerated. ...and just one tiny pin-prick was enough to down Smaug. Not a very fiercesome dragon in that respect.

afro-elf · 12-17-2002, 09:31 PM

Thanks for the quotes guys. I thought that CurunÃ*r's was incomplete.

Cirdan isn't there something about Bard's black arrow being "magic" in some way.

Nargothrond was far more powerful than Rivendell so I think it would have been a "serious" problem for Rivendell.

It would make for a great tale of Glorfindel, Elrond and his sons against the might of Smaug.

Coney · 12-17-2002, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cirdan
I always thought Bard's shot was... extremely lucky. Hitting a small spot on a flying dragon while being incinerated. ...and just one tiny pin-prick was enough to down Smaug. Not a very fiercesome dragon in that respect.

I think Smaug was fiercesome enough (by standards set in the hobbit anyway). Tolkien was just a lover of million-to-one-shots that came out in the good-guys favour.

Isildur cutting the Ring from Saurons finger with a broken sword.

Sam killing Shelob with a stabbing wound to her belly.

Merry wounding the Witch-King.

etc, etc, etc.....

Not that I mind million-one chances coming off mind, they are a part of what high fantasy is all about

As Terry Pratchett said........in reality (fantasy) million-on-chances work nine times out of ten

Cirdan · 12-17-2002, 09:44 PM

A-E, here's the arrow bit...

Quote:

"Arrow!" said the bowman. "Black arrow!" I have saved you to the last. You have never failed me and always I have recovered you. I had you from my father and he from of old. If ever you can from the forges of the true king under the Mountain, go now and speed well!"

Lucky arrow or magical dwarf arrow? Seems implied as both but not explicit. (must have been written in his pre-obsessed-with-details period).

Cirdan · 12-17-2002, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Coney
...Not that I mind million-one chances coming off mind, they are a part of what high fantasy is all about ...

The other 999,999 shots no one wants to read about.

Isildur cut the ring after a vicious battle (not like in the movie). It was more surgical than luck.

Coney · 12-17-2002, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cirdan
Isildur cut the ring after a vicious battle (not like in the movie). It was more surgical than luck.

Yup my mistake.........I was forgeting Gil-Galad (poor guy)

afro-elf · 12-18-2002, 04:35 AM

Thanks for the quote Cirdan.

12-16-2002, 10:36 AM	#2
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	I would say it would be dependent on the situation. Most dragon slayings were very particular in requiring a magic sword, an extraordinary warrior, or, as was the case with Smaug, some special information and a lot of luck. Rivendell had these things at thier disposal, but if the attack had come as part of the war of the ring it would have been disasterous for Rivendell. It is doubtful that anything could lure Smaug from the treasure under the Lonely Mountain, but being a creation of Melkor, I'm wondering if Smaug would have been at the command of Sauron. It may or may not have required the power of the ring. Smaug certainly would have shifted the balance of power during the the war. __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

12-16-2002, 10:45 AM	#3
Dunadan The Quite Querulous Quendi Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Oxon, UK Posts: 638	Interesting question I reckon he'd have had a few problems with the terrain. I agree it's odd that Rivendell is mentioned; it would make more sense from Smaug's point of view to head for the Iron Hills or even the Blue Mountains where there's more booty to be had. I'm not sure I understand JRRT's logic in Gandalf thinking it would be a sensible idea to send Thorin, Bilbo and co off to duff up Smaug. Why not get them to trash Barad-dur while they're at it? It smacks of rather tenuous post-hoc rationalisation to me. cheers d.

12-16-2002, 11:00 AM	#4
CurunÃr Enting Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: iepe kriepe friepe liepe Posts: 95	"It had been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the rings of power..." LOTR, chapter 2. __________________ Innie winnie frimmie zillie hoele kroele froele troele ape krape rape zape ulle frulle kulle a cup of milk huy!

12-16-2002, 11:14 AM	#5
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	Rivendale likely has an acumulation of treasure which would be mildly interesting to the dragon; but it would likely take some serious persuation by Sauron to motivate him to go for it. The dragon, combined with Misty Mountain Orks would likely be an adequate force for bagging Rivendell (but with so much of the power of the attacker represnted in the one entity, Smaug, a chance stroke could snafu the entire attack), which is not much of a miliatry power by the end of the third age. Glaurung and ork/men armies did a sound thrashing to much more powerful Nodorin Kingdoms in the the War of the Jewels. Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 12-16-2002 at 11:15 AM.

12-16-2002, 12:25 PM	#6
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	If I understand it correctly, Sauron was in Mirkwood at the time. Rivendell united with Lothlorien to drive those forces out of Mirkwood during the War of the Rings. So there was a strategical reason for Gandalf to worry about it. Going back to the Fall of Gondolin, Sauron needed his full force of orcs, balrogs, and dragons to destroy it. It would probably have required more than Smaug to accomplish the destruction of Rivendell. Add to that how he really prefered working with his more obedient balrogs because dragons were too self-serving. He would probably have needed to bring in the Balrog that the dwarves released in Khazad-Dum. So I think it's true that the death of Smaug and the destruction of the Balrog in Khazad-Dum tipped the balance in the end so that Merry and Eowyn were truly able to turn the tide of battle on that lucky day. __________________ cya

12-16-2002, 06:46 PM	#7
Lollypopgurl Elven Warrior Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 222	Yeah, I remember reading that. The fact that the rings of power can be consumed by dragon flame, that is. I think Rivendell would have been able to withstand the attack even if Elrond's ring got incinerated(sp?). Dale managed it. __________________ a violinist...

12-17-2002, 01:12 AM	#10
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Your small fire, of course, would not melt even ordinary gold. This Ring has already passed through it unscathed, and even unheated. But there is no smith's forge in this Shire that could change it at all. Not even the anvils and furnaces of the Dwarves could do that. It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Acalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself. Damn you Khamul! I typed that all out for nothing! Personally, I doubt that Rivendell would be that easy for the enemy to find... with Elrond bearing Vilya -- hiding the realm, so to speak. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 12-17-2002 at 01:13 AM.

12-17-2002, 01:46 AM	#11
Coney The Buddy Rabbit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Trapped in the headlights.. Posts: 3,372	Smaug wouldn't have stood a chance Rememer Smaug had a weak spot. If Bard could spot, and hit, the weak spot on the wyrms belly then a couple of hundred Elven archers at Rivendell would have him shot and skinned before he was within a mile of the place The only reason I could guess that Sauron would send Smaug to attack Rivendell would be to prevent Rivendell sending/giving any aid to others ........ Sauron didn't have troops available/capable of such a journey, to accost Rivendell..........so why not send a dirty great Wyrm? __________________ Blessed are the cracked, they let the light in Beatallica

12-17-2002, 07:29 PM	#12
Turgon Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: New York Posts: 23	The Elves would have had no problem spotting the bald spot in those dragon scales. Smaug wouldnâ€™t have been much of a problem to Elrond and crew. As for strategic advantages, Iâ€™m not sure of what it could be. But, in the years that preceded the war of the last alliance, Sauron was desperately trying to destroy Rivendell, only with the help of Gil-galad and the Numenoreans, were Saurons plans of the ruin of Rivendell not met. In those days Sauron could have gone after Amroth or Galadriel in Lorien not far away (not sure who ruled that region at that time?), Thrandruil at Mirkwood near by, and Gil-galad the biggest threat to him, but farthest away. All three of these Elves were way bigger threats than Elrond in Rivendell (by sheer size). So if we could answer why Sauron wanted to destroy Rivendell in the years that preceded the last alliance (what did he fear so much there), we might be able to answer why Gandalf feared Sauron might try it again. __________________ Turgon Last edited by Turgon : 12-17-2002 at 07:30 PM.

12-17-2002, 09:16 PM	#13
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	Why would Sauron need a reason to want to destroy Rivendell? Wrecking Middle Earth and killing the children of Iluvatar seems to be his sole occupation. I wonder about the abilities of Rivendell to defend against the dragon. Nargothrond was destroyed by Glaurung even though the Elves were much stronger at that time. It has a great advantage of terrain, but a sneak attack by a dragon would be pretty nasty. I always thought Bard's shot was... extremely lucky. Hitting a small spot on a flying dragon while being incinerated. ...and just one tiny pin-prick was enough to down Smaug. Not a very fiercesome dragon in that respect. __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

12-17-2002, 09:31 PM	#14
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Thanks for the quotes guys. I thought that CurunÃ*r's was incomplete. Cirdan isn't there something about Bard's black arrow being "magic" in some way. Nargothrond was far more powerful than Rivendell so I think it would have been a "serious" problem for Rivendell. It would make for a great tale of Glorfindel, Elrond and his sons against the might of Smaug. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

12-18-2002, 04:35 AM	#19
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Thanks for the quote Cirdan. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

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