Tolkien discussion ideas

[Sister Golden Hair]

Welcome to the Silmarillion forum.

In an effort to promote discussion of the Silmarillion, we would like to invite you to post your ideas in this thread. List any topics you would care to discuss. Even topics that you feel may have been overdone or recently posted are welcome. Please feel free to make suggestions as to how you think we can improve our Tolkien community and its forums. We especially wish to invite and strongly encourage all newbies to join in.

We look forward to reading your topic ideas and suggestions.

Thank you for your participation.

[Elanor the Fair]

Great idea, again SGH, however, I've already posted some suggestions in the LOTR and Middle Earth forums and they wouldn't be that much different from the suggestions that I would make for this forum.

One thing, though. The Silmarillion is a vastly more complex book than the LOTR. It's a lot harder to discuss characters and their actions etc. If we want to encourage people, including "newbies" to read and discuss the book, it is imperative that there are sufficient "simple" discussions to enable beginning readers to join in. This is not to say that more complex discussions should not be encouraged, however, providing an "easy" entry point will support discussion at a more complex level at a later date.

Regards,
Elanor

[Artanis]

Personally I would welcome a character discussion here as well. We have already covered some of the characters in the Sil Project, but repetition would not hurt us.

One thing, though. The Silmarillion is a vastly more complex book than the LOTR. It's a lot harder to discuss characters and their actions etc. If we want to encourage people, including "newbies" to read and discuss the book, it is imperative that there are sufficient "simple" discussions to enable beginning readers to join in. This is not to say that more complex discussions should not be encouraged, however, providing an "easy" entry point will support discussion at a more complex level at a later date.

I'm not sure if I agree that the Sil is a more complex book than LotR. They are different, and the Sil is perhaps more difficult to get a grasp on at the first reading. I'm not sure what you mean by 'simple' discussions either - what is it? I'm not sure if simplicity is the best way. I think the way we greet newcomers are much more important (friendly replies, trying to answer their questions, not making them look stupid, no sarcasms etc.). When I was a newbie I was grateful for meeting all the people here with so much more knowledge than myself. But of course, all people are not like me.

[Elanor the Fair]

Originally Posted by Artanis

Personally I would welcome a character discussion here as well. We have already covered some of the characters in the Sil Project, but repetition would not hurt us.
I'm not sure if I agree that the Sil is a more complex book than LotR. They are different, and the Sil is perhaps more difficult to get a grasp on at the first reading. I'm not sure what you mean by 'simple' discussions either - what is it? I'm not sure if simplicity is the best way. I think the way we greet newcomers are much more important (friendly replies, trying to answer their questions, not making them look stupid, no sarcasms etc.). When I was a newbie I was grateful for meeting all the people here with so much more knowledge than myself. But of course, all people are not like me.

I guess what I was considering was the wide range of ages of people who participate in entmoot forums. The LOTR is a book that has the ability to span many age-groups. It has a plot that is easy to follow, at least on the surface, which lends itself to many levels of discussions and encompasses many depths of understanding. It is like, say, watching "Chicken Run". The plot is enjoyed by the children and the deeper level of humour and satire is enjoyed by adults. It allows transition from one level of understanding to a deeper one.

I think it would be fair to say that it is easier to discuss the LOTR at multi-levels than The Silmarillion. When I said "simple" discussions I meant that perhaps we should think creatively about how we can encourage discussions where all levels of understanding can be encompassed.

For example: Talking about chronology where you simply discuss what happened, when, where and how is a much simpler concept to grasp than why a character behaved in a particular way - particularly when to do this may require integration of a variety of references. It is a difficult book to read the first time. We need to support and encourage first time readers.

I agree with you that the way we greet newcomers is important. I am a "newbie" here myself. I only joined Entmoot last month. I have been most grateful for the warm welcome and assistance I have received from others.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Elanor the Fair

I guess what I was considering was the wide range of ages of people who participate in entmoot forums. The LOTR is a book that has the ability to span many age-groups. It has a plot that is easy to follow, at least on the surface, which lends itself to many levels of discussions and encompasses many depths of understanding. It is like, say, watching "Chicken Run". The plot is enjoyed by the children and the deeper level of humour and satire is enjoyed by adults. It allows transition from one level of understanding to a deeper one.

I think it would be fair to say that it is easier to discuss the LOTR at multi-levels than The Silmarillion. When I said "simple" discussions I meant that perhaps we should think creatively about how we can encourage discussions where all levels of understanding can be encompassed.

I see what you're saying, and I don't disagree with you.

Originally Posted by Elanor the Fair

For example: Talking about chronology where you simply discuss what happened, when, where and how is a much simpler concept to grasp than why a character behaved in a particular way - particularly when to do this may require integration of a variety of references.

Yes and no. It is in general hard to discuss things in the Sil without referring to HoME and/or UT. Even putting up a timeline isn't as simple as it may look at first sight, there are ambiguities here as well, and this task will also involve bringing in references from other sources.

Originally Posted by Elanor the Fair

It is a difficult book to read the first time. We need to support and encourage first time readers.

Yes, but if we make it too simple, we risk losing members who prefer the in-depth discussions.

[Aphanuzîr]

Did it have any significance that Lúthien saw Gondolin from above?
Beleg and Mablung
The relation between Nienor and Finduilas

[Krameraxe]

I am about 1/3 the way through the book and it is an amazing read. I agree it is complex, I have to keep going to the back of the book to track characters / places. I am interested in any discussion in regards to this tale. I am a new reader of Tolkien and I have submerged myself as of late in his books. I have read the LOTR trilogy, the Hobbit and now the Silmarillion. I have touched on the Treason of Isengard and find that book less interesting more of a history of Tolkiens writings.

Any suggestions as to what book I should tackle next - I was thinking Children of Huron. Thanks in advance for any feedback.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Krameraxe

I have read the LOTR trilogy, the Hobbit and now the Silmarillion. I have touched on the Treason of Isengard and find that book less interesting more of a history of Tolkiens writings.

Any suggestions as to what book I should tackle next - I was thinking Children of Huron. Thanks in advance for any feedback.

Children of Hurin would be a good choice - it is Tolkien's story without editorial interruptions.

Treason of Isengard is exactly what you say - it is indeed a history of Tolkien's writings, as all the 12 volumes in the series that it is a part of, The History of Middle-earth (meaning the history of how it came into being as a literary entity). Some of the volumes, especially volume 10, 11 and 12, contain some interesting shorter articles - and at least one shorter story - by Tolkien about his world, though, and volume 1 and 2 contain very early versions of stories that later became the Silmarillion - but the texts are treated much like in Treason of Isengard.

You could try Unfinished Tales after Children of Hurin - it has more continuous text than Treason of Isengard, but has lot of footnotes and editorial interruptions.

If you decide to try another volume of History of Middle-earth (HoME), I would suggest volume 10, only because it includes my favorite story - the Athrabeth, or The Converse of Finrod and Andreth.

Edit:
After I noticed which thread this is in, I thought that possibly the question I answered, or at least my answer, rather belongs in a different thread, or even in a thread of its own. Could the moderators look into it?

[Krameraxe]

Thanks for your reply. I am curious how you became interested in Tolkiens writings? Was it something introduced to you in your youth or later in life. I ask because I have always spent time reading books on current events, politics and as I mentioned prior, I have only recently emersed my self in Tolkiens works. I am elated as well as to the immense community that discusses Tolkiens writings.

[Valarauko5]

Being a complete newbie to this, bu not to LotR, I would like to think about maybe a simple question. How did all the Noldor know how to make weapons? It never says anything about anyone but Morgoth and Aule knowing anything about forging. And Aule only seems to have taught it to a select few. How did all the houses of the Noldor then prepare weapons of war at Morgoth's suggestion? Did they all go in secret and order in bulk from the great smith Mahtan? It seems like kind of a silly thing for Aule to teach EVERYONE how to make weapons if the Valar were all for peace.

[Aelfwine]

Originally Posted by Krameraxe

...I am curious how you became interested in Tolkiens writings? Was it something introduced to you in your youth or later in life. I ask because I have always spent time reading books on current events, politics and as I mentioned prior, I have only recently emersed my self in Tolkiens works. I am elated as well as to the immense community that discusses Tolkiens writings.

I'm new to Entmoot, but you sound a bit like me--pretty much into non-fiction in your pre-Tolkien days.

I got interested in Tolkien a little less than two years ago. I read TLOR just as a good story, but the hook was from The Silmarillion. In the second edition, which is the current one, there is a 1951 letter from Tolkien to his publisher. On the 2d or 3d page of the letter are two paragraphs in which Tolkien describes what the elves represent. With those two paragraphs both my imagination and my heart came alive.

If you haven't read that letter, I highly recommend it.