Gandalf

[Nunc]

I have been reflecting...

What happened to Gandalf when he fell in Moria? He tells Legolas, Aragorn and Gimli: "Long time I fell, and my foe fell with me." The balrog turns into slime, Gandalf holds onto his heel and so manages to find the lost stair, and then ensues the fight on the top of ZirakZigil (whatever it's called). Gandalf then passes out of thought and knowledge.

He talks about wandering... He obviously comes back with a modified (?resurrected?) body which is slightly translucent. He also says something about "forgetting much which I knew, and remembering much which I had forgotten".

What does he mean by this? Where did he go? Did he return to Aman, to Manwe (Olorin being one of the Maiar of Manwe... Manwe as lord of the air maintained contact with Middle Earth even though the rest of the Valar had forsaken it after Morgoth ruined it, through the services of the great eagles and other birds of the air. This is why Gandalf has such influence with the Eagles...)? Did Manwe send him back? Or did Eru Illuvatar?

What was the nature of the choice of those Maiar who elected to go to Middle Earth to aid the free peoples against Sauron? Did they assume mortality/immortality of the kind of the elves? Or were they completely different?

Why is it that Gandalf before Moria seems less powerful than the White Rider (Gandalf post Moria)? Where does his power come from? Why the injection power at this point?

He says to I forget whom, "Even though the [wars with Sauron/quest of the ring/defence of MIddle Earth by Gondor and its allies etc] should fail, my quest shall not have fully failed."

What does he mean by this?

On the other hand...

Gandalf is of the Maiar, as are all the Istari. Sauron is also of the Maiar of old - originally of the folk of Aule, but then aligning himself with Morgoth.

If this is so, why has Gandalf himself not the power to confront Sauron? Is it that evil somehow makes a spirit more evil and more powerful than it was otherwise?

Moreover, are not the balrogs also Maiar? When the Trees were murdered, and in their place Varda created the sun and the moon (single fruits of each tree), the sun was given to a "female" Maiar who was a spirit of fire... A good version of the balrogs, a Maiar not tainted or twisted by Morgoth.

Why then is the balrog of Moria too much for Gandalf?

[Dunadan]

Woof! Lots of questions. Dunno about most of 'em, but the Istari were limited in what they could do: they weren't allowed to use most of their Maia powers. That's why G was more interested in inspiring others.

There is a passage somewhere which says that only Gandalf would have been able to overthrow Sauron using the Ring.

And, I think you'll find, Gandalf stuffs the balrog good and proper, but expires himself with the effort. His spirit is "sent back" for a time until his work is completed.

If you want to know the mechanics of all this, you'll have to make it up yourself or read someone else's attempt at the same. JRRT always intended for this kind of stuff to be unexplained and mysterious.

cheers

d.

[Nunc]

Yes, this makes sense Dunadan.

lol - I guess we as readers get so caught up and carried away with Tolkien's mythology and "Histories" that we forget that he left many lacunae...

[Keith K]

Originally posted by Nunc
Did Manwe send him back? Or did Eru Illuvatar?

I believe that Manwe sent him back with Illuvatar's blessing. Manwe was able to comprehend the intent of Illuvatar in times of need. The Valar did not actually abandon Middle-Earth to Sauron, they would help if necessary (Elbereth and Sam, the Istari, etc.).

[Dunadan]

Originally posted by Nunc
lol - I guess we as readers get so caught up and carried away with Tolkien's mythology and "Histories" that we forget that he left many lacunae...

Easily done!

I guess a lot of this comes from mystical things like transubstantiation, which are part and parcel of any religion.

Having said that, I came across something the other day, can't remember where, where a person was saying that Middle-Earth is supposed to be our world c. 8.000 BC or something. Anyone care to confirm or deny this?

cheers

d.

[Nunc]

I believe Dunadan, that this is the case... Middle Earth is *our* earth; it is a mythology of creation. But you know what? I can't remember where I read it either ...

[Ñólendil]

Gandalf did not go to Valinor when he died. He left Time and Space altogether. Tolkien makes it crystal clear in a letter that Gandalf went unto God Himself, and was sent back by Him.

forgetting much which I knew, and remembering much which I had forgotten

Much of what Gandalf knew was Arda, and Imbar (the Earth); what he had forgotten was the world Outside, completely Outside, such as the fair regions Ilúvatar made for the Holy Ones before the Music.

What was the nature of the choice of those Maiar who elected to go to Middle Earth to aid the free peoples against Sauron? Did they assume mortality/immortality of the kind of the elves? Or were they completely different?

A Maia can never be mortal, in our sense; they cannot die by age, but if they take upon themselves -- or are given -- true, phyiscal, incarnate forms, then they can die indeed, that is, their physical forms may be destroyed. Sauron died five times (via Huan, the Drowning of Númenor, Elendil & Gil-galad, the White Council's attack on Dol Guldur, and the destruction of the Ring). Gandalf died as he himself slew the Balrog, but Gandalf could not have died simply by age, or even sickness. The Maiar were indefinitely longeval, and this could not be changed, except by the One Himself on rare occasion.

Why is it that Gandalf before Moria seems less powerful than the White Rider (Gandalf post Moria)? Where does his power come from? Why the injection power at this point?

When Gandalf chose to stand and fight the Balrog, he made a sacrifice. Think of the Wizards. There are five. Two were in the East and had different business. Radagast had forsaken his mission and no one knew where he was. Saruman had fallen into evil. For all Gandalf knew, he was the only one capable of guiding that Ring to Mount Doom and ridding the world of Sauron once and for all. Yet he fought the Balrog, to save his friends from it, and the world outside, and the Ring. He knew it would be a long battle, and he knew it could very well be the end of it. But he fought anyway, and they both perished. The One, therefore, rewarded him, and clothed him in white, rather than grey, for there was no longer a White Wizard, as Saruman had no longer any right to be in the order and had clothed himself in "many colours" anyway. Gandalf was taking the place of Saruman and was going to the leader Saruman was meant to be. Gandalf's powers were increased to fit the role, and also as a reward for Gandalf's piety and self-sacrifice. The power, therefore, came from the One. You could, then, say that Gandalf was filled with God-like, or holy, power.

Even though the [wars with Sauron/quest of the ring/defence of MIddle Earth by Gondor and its allies etc] should fail, my quest shall not have fully failed

I don't know what he said, but if he did say something like this, I imagine he was referring to his effort and intentions. To a large extent, Gandalf couldn't help Frodo and Sam -- and Gollum. It was up to them. Gandalf could do what he could do, and if the Ring was not destroyed, Gandalf could not be blamed for it, and he would not have fully failed -- because he remained pure and faithful to the task of defeated Sauron.

If this is so, why has Gandalf himself not the power to confront Sauron? Is it that evil somehow makes a spirit more evil and more powerful than it was otherwise?

Two Maiar are not equal in might because they are two Maiar. Barliman Butterbur was no match for Aragorn, and yet they were both Men. Sauron was the mightiest servant of Melkor, he may thus have been the greatest of the Maiar before he Fell. I do not know whether Gandalf the White and Sauron of the War of the Ring were a match for eachother, but certainly Sauron at any stage could have destroyed Gandalf the Grey. I am not sure why Sauron had been created so powerful, but certainly the pursuit of power is a breeding ground for corruption.

Moreover, are not the balrogs also Maiar? When the Trees were murdered, and in their place Varda created the sun and the moon (single fruits of each tree), the sun was given to a "female" Maiar who was a spirit of fire... A good version of the balrogs, a Maiar not tainted or twisted by Morgoth.

Why then is the balrog of Moria too much for Gandalf?

I think you suffer from the misconception that all Maiar are equal in power. Some are greater than others. Anyway I think the Balrog and Gandalf were too much for eachother. They both died, remember, and the Balrog perished first.

[Sween]

my reading of the situation is as follows. The quest was allways destined to succed. Frodo dream been the best example. The destuction of the ring was really frodo business and if gandalf was fully aware of this is a mystery (probably not) frodo had a bad habbit of not telling all that he knew.

As for when gandalf dies i take it when a maiar dies im not sure what happens. Maiar as all being in tolkiens world have free will so maybethere choices affect where they go. Sauron for example maybe by choice would not be sent back to eru (i find illversters name really had to spell) but gandalf who was his servent probably openly wanted to go back.

Eru obvosly saw that gandalf had an important job to do and sent him back very very powerfull. Rember the part about no wepon of yours can hurt me, well aragorn had narsil so he mist of been pretty tough.

the way he takes away saurmans powers has allways intrested me because well this never occurs anywhere else in tolkiens work and in theory why can they not do this to sauron? the way i see it is because saurman was a servent of the valar and ultimtally eru he decided that hes no longer deserved the powers which he had and took them off him.

[Nunc]

Nolendil, yes I think you are probably right about most of that...

Obviously the Maiar differed in power/knowledge/status/ability just as the Valar did...

Do you have any information to back up your understanding?

[Ñólendil]

Concerning Maiar inequality (power wise), you can look in many places. Acknowledging Saruman the White as greater than Gandalf the Grey is enough though. (And this is certainly true. Gandalf says "he is the head of my order", "he is the greatest of my order". When Gandalf suggests to Saruman that dealing with himself may not be one of the lighter matters, Saruman laughs in his face, "for my words were empty, and he knew it". There was no battle, unlike the movie, because Gandalf didn't have a chance.)

Concerning what happened to Gandalf the Grey after he died (and he did die), you can read about it in Letter # 156 in The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien. Everything I said about Gandalf's death and return comes from my memory of this letter. It is also discussed briefy at the end of Letter # 181.

[Nunc]

Sounds like I need to add these letters to my Middle Earth collection... Are they readily available? Is there a preferred edition? One must be right about all this, of course...

[Ñólendil]

Most book stores with Tolkien books have The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien. You'll be wanting the edition with the Index in the back. You can order it off amazon.com here.