Sauron and the Balrog

[Finmandos12]

Did Sauron know about the Balrog in Moria? Did they cooperate in any way?

[Findegil]

I have had a hard discussion about that on an other borad (Tolkiens-Welt.de it is in German so I hope it will stand the censorship ). We did not find together on that board.
My oppion is still that, Sauron actually did know of the Balrog and that they cooperated in a little degree. (Meaning that the Balrog would ahve assisted Saruon in the great war to come if had been still alive.) I found two evidences in the texts of the appendices to the Lord of the Ring). The first is in Durin's Folk (sorry the title might be wrong it is a back transalation) their is a footnote that says that the Balrog might have been stirred by Sauron even before the dwarves got at him. The second is in The Tals of the Years were it is told that Sauron populated Moria with his creatures.
In view of the bock were the orcs and trolls cooperated with the balrog the second seems to be the stronger evidence.

Regards
Findegil

[markedel]

Sauron is more powerful then the Balrog-but could he actually control it? I have my doubts. I guess it depends which "mythology" you use-more powerful or less powerful maia.

[Findegil]

Must Sauron control the Balrog? May be they worked together without. Sauron was the Leutnant of Angband while Melkor was in Utumno and during his captiviti. So the Balrog might have accept Sauron as oferlord without any kind of control.

Regards
Findegil

[Ñólendil]

That's a good point, the Balrog and Sauron doubtless knew eachother, and when the two dwelt in Angband Sauron outranked him, being the greatest of Morgoth's people.

[Kwijibo]

What it comes down 2 is whether the Balrog needs Sauron, or, moreover, whether Sauron needs the Balrog.

With all his armies of Orcs and all of Saruman's armies of Orcs, what need has he for an underground monster who can't fly (in my opinion, the Moria Balrog didn't have wings ) and has enough fun terrorizing trolls and the odd Company of the Ring who decide 2 come wandering thru.

And y does the Balrog need Sauron? I dunno.

[Findegil]

What about using the Balrog against Lorien? Saurons Armies of Orks and Men and Trolls failed their. The Balrog in addition might have proven to big an enemy for Galadriel.

Regards
Findegil

[ragamuffin92]

Speaking of that, does anyone know why the balrog stayed inside Moria, once the Dwarves opened up a path for him to get out when they "delved too deep?" Why didn't he go out and wreak havoc on the general population, being an evil thrall of Morgoth, and all.

[Findegil]

I would say he was instructed by Sauron how wanted him as a secret wappen in the great war to come. That would also explain way he doesn't come out into the Battle of Azanulbizar.

Regards
Findegil

[Kwijibo]

What use would the Balrog b as a secret weapon when it stays underground in a deserted mine where no1 ever goes all the time?

Heck, the Balrog can't even fly ( )

Perhaps the Balrog is afraid of the light?!?!

[Findegil]

Oh sorry I didn't thought I had to explain such a simple think like secret weapon. But here we go:
If the Balrog would have come out to early Galadriel would have recognised him as a foe of utermost danger. She would have turned her thought to flight or may be to some help against that foe. So the it was the better taktik to hold the Balrog unseen until the final strike in which case it was to late for flight and everybody else was angaed in war so that no help would be available.

Regards
Findegil

[Kwijibo]

So y didn't Sauron set the Balrog loose after the Nazgul lost their horses? Or what about the Siege of Minas Tirith? That would have been a perfect time to attack the Elvish stronghold - when everybody else was protecting the White City.

The Balrog just sat in Khazad-Dum the whole time (Lazy Demon Thing ).

And would Sauron have been able to enslave the Balrog in the first place? Now i'm making very slow progress with the Silmarillion, but i understand that Sauron didn't start get bossy until Morgoth (or Melkor, can't remember) was defeated. But it says in the LotR that the Balrogs were demons as old as the earth or older.

The Balrog was there first! What chance did Sauron have to enslave such a fearsome and colossol being?

[Ñólendil]

"So y didn't Sauron set the Balrog loose after the Nazgul lost their horses? Or what about the Siege of Minas Tirith? That would have been a perfect time to attack the Elvish stronghold - when everybody else was protecting the White City."

The Balrog was busy fighting Gandalf for ten days, and by the time Minas Tirith was besieged the Balrog was dead.

"But it says in the LotR that the Balrogs were demons as old as the earth or older. "

I think all it says is that the Balrog of Mória was a 'demon of the ancient world'. All the Balrogs like all the Ainur were of course older than the Earth. As for when Sauron got bossy, he did not became a Dark Lord until the Second Age, but he was the greatest of Morgoth's (Melkor's, they are the same person) servants and his chief lieutenant in the First Age. Sauron was the highest ranked servant of Melkor, that that means he outranked the Balrogs, though Gothmog was the Captain of Angband's military.

[fungilorde]

Was Gothmog the Balrog in Moria?

[Twilight]

Gothmog wasn't the balrog of moria. Gothmog had already been killed at the time by an elf lord. I don't remember which one though.

[barrelrider110]

Saruman knew of the Balrog's existance, and it was Saruman who steered the company into the Balrog's path. Saruman knew that the fellowhip was in Hollin, they were no doubt spotted by the enormous flock of crows, and had probably set a trap at the gap of Rohan as well as starting the snowstorm at the Redhorn pass (something I had not thought about until I saw the movie).

I don't think that Sauron had any control over the Balrog. If he did, I think he either would have dispatched him to hunt down Frodo or summoned him to Mordor to participate in the assault on Gondor. His influence in the north was diminshed since he was driven from Dol Guldur. Instead he used his agents, the ringwraiths and Saruman, to perpetrate his wishes there.

He didn't exert any influence over Shelob, either. She, like the Balrog, was another ancient evil in a convenient place. I don't think there was any alliance. Why? The Balrog and Shelob had no use for Sauron. They were hermits who lived in holes tucked away from the world. They had no ambition for power. Their sole purpose was to act out their own malice, and thus perfect instruments to carry out Sauron's wishes but not under his control. I believe that they were not in league either, just in the right place at the right time to serve Sauron's purposes. I don' t think that Sauron was all powerful or influential.

Those with ambition like Saruman and the "Mouth of Sauron" were the individuals most susceptable to the influence of Sauron. The orcs and trolls were part of a slave army since their existence, so they didn't control their own destinies either.

There is nothing in LOTR to suggest an alliance. The Balrog acted in Sauron's behalf merely because of who he was and where he was. I don't think the evidence in the appendices and Tale of the Years is compelling enough.

[Kwijibo]

'Saruman knew of the Balrog's existance, and it was Saruman who steered the company into the Balrog's path.'

This is a good point. But y would Saruman try to kill Frodo, when he wanted the Ring himself? If Frodo ended up in a Balrog's stomach, so would the Ring.

And i don't think Saruman would be prepared 2 jump into a Balrog mouth in a hurry.

[Findegil]

I can't see any clear evidence that Saruman know about the Balrog. If you can show that in the texts please do so.
In addition I can't see the use of Saruman driving them into the balrogs trape. And for Sauron don't using the Balrog in the hunt of for the Ring, I think he would have been a dangerous hunter for Sauron. The Balrog as well as Saruman and Gandalf were great enough to take the Ring and use it against Sauron at once. The Nazgul were the better choice for the hunt. They couldn't act against Saurons wishes since he held the nine.

Regards
Findegil

[barrelrider110]

Good point Findegil.

First, there is no direct evidence that Saruman knew of the existance of the Balrog. Pure speculation on my part. Saruman knew that the Fellowship was in Hollin- they were spotted by an enormous fly-by of Crebain (crow-like birds). Gandalf himself admits by making a fire on Caradhras, he announced that "Gandalf is here." It's uncertain who started the snowstorm.

Gimli thinks it was the mountain, that Caradhras was once called "the Cruel". Boromir thinks it is a contrivance of Sauron. Gandalf admits "his arm has grown long." Yes, his arm has grown long, but Sauron carries out his wishes often through the work of those who are under his will-- and Saruman fell under his will by gazing into the Palantir of Orthanc. Regardless of what he thought, Saruman was working for Sauron.

Saruman caused the snowstorm. He had found out that a group of 9 or so were moving south, in company with Gandalf and a group of hobbits. The ring therefore must be with them. Their possible routes are (1) The Gap of Rohan- unlikely, too easily trapped, and Saruman guessed correctly that Gandalf would have ruled it out. (2) The Redhorn Gate (3) Moria. Moria would have been their last choice. Too many bad things down there- too easy to get trapped. Saruman therefore created the snowstorm to force the fellowship back from the Redhorn Gate into Moria. (I will admit here that this thought had not occurred to me until I saw the movie).

Did Saruman know of the existance of Durin's Bane? It was certainly no secret. The Dwarves knew it. He was very wise, the head of the order of Istari. He had been in Middle Earth a very long time. I think he knew.

Also a point made by Kwijibo:

This is a good point. But y would Saruman try to kill Frodo, when he wanted the Ring himself? If Frodo ended up in a Balrog's stomach, so would the Ring.

I think that Saruman's design was to neutralize Gandalf, his most formidable adversary, not for the Balrog take the ring. A dicey move for sure, but Saruman was getting desperate. If the Fellowship was without Gandalf, his most formidable adversary, they were more vulnerable. His plan would have worked if the Uruk-Hai had not kidnapped the wrong hobbits. Saruman probably never considered the unlikely choice of the ring traveling east toward Mordor instead of west to Gondor.

Anyway, its just my crackpot theory.

[bropous]

I can't see the Balrog of Moria and Sauron being in any allegiance.

I see it more like Sauron was Assistant Manager to Morgoth, and all the Balrogs were underlings. Once Morgoth was removed from the world, Sauron and the rest of the flunkies went independent. Sauron turned nicey-nice, kissing up to the elves and men [for a short time at least] while the balrogs who survived had to hide in dark caves and the roots of mountains.

The balrog in Moria may not have given as much as two hoots for his former "boss", and though Sauron would probably have scourged him out of his hidey-hole in Moria when he really needed him, the black Lord of Barad-Dur was content to let the Balrog rot in its own misery in the pits of Moria. I am sure Sauron knew the Balrog was there, and just kept it in the back of his mind, to use when required. I would think the balrog would have been a good tool after the fall of Minas Tirith to fly to the Grey Havens and destroy them, sealing the Elves in Middle-Earth for Sauron to slowly destroy.