Are Gandalf's action worthy of critic?

[Coffeehouse]

I just re-read the beginning of the Fellowship of the Ring and came across a part which I hadn't really thought that much about before until now. The scene is where Frodo has just been informed about the incredible danger that he is in and the true power of the ring, not least it's rightful master.

But when he asks for advice, bewildered as to where to go or what to do with the ring, Gandalf seems to give anything but the kind of cool advice that you would expect from a seasoned wizard...

- 'No indeed!' said Frodo. 'But in the meantime what course am I to lake?'
- 'Towards danger; but not too rashly, nor too straight,' answered the wizard. 'If you want my advice, make for Rivendell. That journey should not prove too perilous, though the Road is less easy than it was, and it will grow worse as the year fails.'
-'Rivendell!' said Frodo. 'Very good: I will go east, and I will make for Rivendell. I will take Sam to visit the Elves; he will be delighted.'
He spoke lightly; but his heart was moved suddenly with a desire to see the house of Elrond Halfelven, and breathe the air of that deep valley where many of the Fair Folk still dwelt in peace.

I was startled to read that he is actually advicing Frodo to head towards Rivendell as if it were a thought he just pulled out of the air. Not too hard, not too easy sort of, but he makes no attempt to educate Frodo about why Rivendell would be a good place to go, who could help him there, how long such a trip would take and last but not least how he is to get there. Frodo, who has never been outside of the Shire, wouldn't have the faintest clue as to the distance (except for the odd map that Bilbo would have lying around) and so it seems kind of vague to say "Not too rashly, not too straigth". What is rash? What is too straight? How would Frodo possibly be able to judge that?

Apart from his advice it was a long line of purely coincidental, lucky encounters that brought Frodo from A to B. Gandalf on the other hand, gave Frodo two simultaneous storylines. One was that he was in incredible danger and that he would have to leave his home and head off. Yet on the other hand he rarely divulges any practical information, instead insinuating that going after Bilbo's birthday is too late, but that too soon would be rash. Frodo is then left up to himself to make up a plan involving him moving out of Bag End, 'faking' it to the entire town of Hobbiton, and stealthely moving off without any idea as to the time pressure he really is under. Gandalf seems to lend very little advice to how he is to do this. Instead he mostly seems to keep his thoughts to himself, giving clues that keep Frodo guessing instead of being plainly fortright with him. As if it were a game...

[Earniel]

I'm inclined to believe Gandalf had a pretty good idea of Frodo's capabilities. Of course, he could be quite nebulous in what he said, in his wizardy way, but in this case I don't think Frodo actually needed more detailed advice.

I was startled to read that he is actually advicing Frodo to head towards Rivendell as if it were a thought he just pulled out of the air. Not too hard, not too easy sort of, but he makes no attempt to educate Frodo about why Rivendell would be a good place to go, who could help him there, how long such a trip would take and last but not least how he is to get there. Frodo, who has never been outside of the Shire, wouldn't have the faintest clue as to the distance (except for the odd map that Bilbo would have lying around) and so it seems kind of vague to say "Not too rashly, not too straigth". What is rash? What is too straight? How would Frodo possibly be able to judge that?

It may seem random, but I've always thought Gandalf had carefully considered for quite a while on where he would send Frodo. While Frodo may not have been as far as Rivendell yet, he had done a bit of adventuring under Bilbo's wing, at least a lot more than the avarage Hobbit in any case. He seemed well-acquinted with the concept of journeys. And he had spent his youth in Brandybuck Hall, where the Hobbits are a bit more adventurous anyway. So we better not underestimate Frodo.

And do not forget that Bilbo had been in Rivendell, and made a decent travel account of it too. I'm sure Frodo had a pretty good idea what Rivendell was and why he should go there, from Bilbo's previous accounts. The quote even seem to indicate it too, as Frodo thinks about wanting to see the House of Elrond the Half-Elf. Rivendell is therefor not an unknown place to him. He'd probably knew Elrond could counsel him further on the matter, just as Elrond had helped the Dwarves and Bilbo with the moon-runes years before. I'd say Frodo had all the information he needed to plan a trip to Rivendell.

And I'm pretty sure that at the time of Gandalf suggesting the Rivendell-route to Frodo, he had already planned to meet with the Hobbits around or after Bree. Or intended to arange for Aragorn to help the Hobbits in his stead. Which would mean the Hobbits wouldn't have to venture outside the Shire far without a guide in any case.

Frodo is then left up to himself to make up a plan involving him moving out of Bag End, 'faking' it to the entire town of Hobbiton, and stealthely moving off without any idea as to the time pressure he really is under. Gandalf seems to lend very little advice to how he is to do this. Instead he mostly seems to keep his thoughts to himself, giving clues that keep Frodo guessing instead of being plainly fortright with him. As if it were a game...

I think that Gandalf was actually wise to leave the matter how Frodo left the Shire entirely up to Frodo himself. Gandalf had a tricky reputation in the Shire, having been accused before of inspiring young intrepid Hobbits on long and strange journeys from which they did not always return. Frodo was therefore more likely to come up with a plan to make his journey seem believable, without drawing too much attention on the idea that Gandalf set him up to it.

As for the timing, I don't think Gandalf knew enough himself to give a more clear time-frame. It's tricky to guess what the enemy may or may not know about one's plans, and what his own plans were. And he couldn't really pry into them, without revealing his interest. Also, it's very difficult to predict how the situation on the road between the Shire and Rivendell would evolve, there are so many factors involved.

[Varnafindë]

At that time I suppose that Gandalf thought that it would be safe enough just to follow the Great East Road all the way to the Fords of Bruinen and past them, and then perhaps he meant for someone to tell Elrond to look out for him and make sure he found the exit to Rivendell.

If Gandalf had known then what he found out later - about Saruman and about the Black Riders - he would probably have made sure that Frodo started earlier, and guided him along some of the way (or got Rangers to guide him). At that time it probably still would have been safe enough for Frodo and his guides to use the road.

[Valandil]

Coffeehouse - take another look at the start of chapter 3. It begins with a conversation between Frodo and Gandalf that happens 2-3 weeks after the long talk in chapter 2. So - Gandalf hung around plenty of time after the one night - to give further instructions to Frodo, as needed.

I think he only didn't want him to go 'too rashly' because he didn't want his departure to attract notice. If it goes like this: Gandalf comes to visit Frodo, the next day Frodo packs up and hurriedly leaves, heading straight east - the Shire folk will take note of that, and will remember it well when someone comes by, casually asking questions about Mr Baggins.

Remember - in the book, it's not like in the movie.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

It may seem random, but I've always thought Gandalf had carefully considered for quite a while on where he would send Frodo. While Frodo may not have been as far as Rivendell yet, he had done a bit of adventuring under Bilbo's wing, at least a lot more than the avarage Hobbit in any case. He seemed well-acquinted with the concept of journeys. And he had spent his youth in Brandybuck Hall, where the Hobbits are a bit more adventurous anyway. So we better not underestimate Frodo.

I'd say Frodo had all the information he needed to plan a trip to Rivendell.

And I'm pretty sure that at the time of Gandalf suggesting the Rivendell-route to Frodo, he had already planned to meet with the Hobbits around or after Bree. Or intended to arange for Aragorn to help the Hobbits in his stead. Which would mean the Hobbits wouldn't have to venture outside the Shire far without a guide in any case.

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

At that time I suppose that Gandalf thought that it would be safe enough just to follow the Great East Road all the way to the Fords of Bruinen and past them, and then perhaps he meant for someone to tell Elrond to look out for him and make sure he found the exit to Rivendell.

Originally Posted by Valandil

Coffeehouse - take another look at the start of chapter 3. It begins with a conversation between Frodo and Gandalf that happens 2-3 weeks after the long talk in chapter 2. So - Gandalf hung around plenty of time after the one night - to give further instructions to Frodo, as needed.

Well I agree that Gandalf definitely made a wise choice in generally staying low in the Shire, letting Frodo sort out things without overt deliberation and involvement. But there's also a question of just how 'hands-off' Gandalf should have been. While he at times seemingly shows great trust in Frodo, more times than not during these talks in 'The Shadow of the Past'-chapter Gandalf chooses to be vague and very little forthcoming.

For instance, as soon as Frodo began his journey towards Rivendell, it became painfully clear just how little he knew about the path ahead.

There was no talk, not even a foreshadowing of the existence of Tom Bombadil, nor that the hobbits probably should have avoided the Old Forest all-together. That brings us to the question whether it would have been wise anyhow to take the Road. Although Gandalf couldn't anticipate (I guess) the Nine coming to Eriador, he couldn't have been less concerned about the hobbits out and open on the Road than roaming around visibly in the Shire, Bree or any other place for that matter. Frodo Baggins, on the instruction of Gandalf, took the name Mr. Underhill, suggesting that Gandalf already then anticipated the need for secrecy... In terms of a route the only advice he really gives is to go in all possible geographical directions... as long as he gets to Rivendell. Rather vague?

Gandalf stayed in the Shire for over two months. Then one evening, at the
end of June, soon after Frodo’s plan had been finally arranged, he suddenly
announced that he was going off again next morning.
- “Only for a short while, I hope,” he said, “But I am going down beyond the southern borders to get some news, if I can. I have been idle longer than I should.”
He spoke lightly, but it seemed to Frodo that he looked rather worried.
- “Has anything happened?” he asked.
- “Well no; but I have heard something that has made me anxious and needs
looking into. If I think it necessary after all for you to get off at once, I shall come back immediately, or at least send word. In the meanwhile stick to your plan; but be more careful than ever, especially of the Ring. Let me impress on you once more, don’t use it!”

Gandalf sticks around for 2 months but never tells Frodo that (High) Elves may possibly be roaming the area, and they (highly likely as far as Gildor's insinuations) know where Frodo is going. Why not mention this? Or that small matter of telling the hobbits that they should stay well clear of the Barrows.

The last part irks me somewhat. Gandalf has told Frodo that he will help him as much as he can. But it fails the wizards attention that perhaps the best help he could get was being a little more updated on where precisely Gandalf went and what he was doing during his sudden runaways. I don't buy the argument that Frodo would have been less inclined to go to Rivendell the less he knew about the danger he was in. If anything, Gandalf should have learned at least one important characteristic in Bilbo which was sure to exist in Frodo: bravery when confronted with darkness. Seems he didn't think very hard about this or put much faith in it. It's nothing short of fantastic then, that being oblivious to just how much danger he was in, Frodo actually made it to Rivendell in one piece nevermind the three hobbits who were tagging along with him.

In any case, I'm not trying any character assassination here... but you know perhaps the pipeweed did dull Gandalf's judgement... (smoke, smoke)

[Alcuin]

Coffeehouse, another way to position your question might be this: Why did Gandalf not immediately lead Frodo to Rivendell himself, or at least send some of the Rangers with him?

Consider what might have been the outcome had Gandalf proceeded in that fashion. Suppose Frodo had set out about midsummer, say in the company of two or three Rangers, around the same time Boromir left Minas Tirith. Frodo would have probably arrived in Rivendell about four weeks after midsummer, around the end of July 3019. The Ringwraiths would still have arrived in the Shire about eight weeks later, about September 22 (Bilbo’s and Frodo’s birthday, when Frodo and his friends left Hobbiton). The Nazgûl would soon have determined where the Ring had gone, and pursuing it, set a watch on Rivendell and called for reinforcements. Gandalf might or might not have gotten in, depending upon whether the Nazgûl reached Orthanc and had Saruman redouble his vigilance over his prisoner. Galdor, Legolas, Glóin, Gimli and Boromir would surely have had considerable difficulty reaching Elrond.

Instead, Frodo was leaving the Shire at that time. The hunters who had never before failed, failed to capture Frodo: not because of any merit of Frodo’s, but by a strange series of coincidence, accidents, and chance encounters Frodo reached Rivendell barely alive, but alive and with the Ring; while the hunters, unhorsed and disabled, returned to their master in disgrace, so that the Company of the Nine Walkers was able to leave Rivendell in secret and with some space to move without harassment or interference.

In Unfinished Tales, “Quest of Erebor”, “Extracts from the earlier version”,

Gimli [asked], “...Did you plan all this then, Gandalf? If not, why did you lead Thorin Oakenshield to such an unlikely door? To find the Ring and bring it far away into the West for hiding, and then to choose the Ringbearer – and to restore the Mountain Kingdom as a mere deed by the way: was not that your design?”

Gandalf ... stood ... a long while silent. But at last he turned to Gimli and said: “I do not know the answer. ... In those days I should have answered you with words like those I used to Frodo, only last year in the spring. Only last year! ... I said to a small and frightened Hobbit: Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker, and you therefore were meant to bear it. And I might have added: and I was meant guide you both to those points.

“To do that I used in my waking mind only such means as were allowed to me, doing what lay to my hand according to such reasons as I had. But what I knew in my heart, or knew before I stepped on these grey shores: that is another matter. Olórin I was in the West that is forgotten, and only to those who are there shall I speak openly.”

Only last spring is precisely the time period about which you are asking, Coffeehouse. Even afterwards, Gandalf the White could not answer Gimli’s question about the motives and purposes Gandalf the Grey – for they were not his own. He was but a servant, but a faithful servant.

Art imitates life, for there is this to consider from Letter 328, which Christopher Tolkien dated from Autumn 1971, in which his father wrote,

A few years ago I was visited in Oxford by a man whose name I have forgotten… He had been much struck by the curious way in which many old pictures seemed to him to have been designed to illustrate The Lord of the Rings long before its time. ... When it became obvious that, unless I was a liar, I had never seen the pictures before..., he fell silent. I became aware that he was looking fixedly at me. Suddenly he said: ‘Of course you don't suppose, do you, that you wrote all that book yourself?’

Pure Gandalf! I was too well acquainted with G[andalf] to expose myself rashly, or to ask what he meant. I think I said: ‘No, I don't suppose so any longer.’ I have never since been able to suppose so.

[Coffeehouse]

Thanks for the answers! (particularly yours Alcuin!), I'm a little more forgiving towards Gandalf now.. though I'm still quite sure that puffing had some drawbacks on his judgement...