Numénor VS Noldor

[Elessar_elfstone]

Frankly speaking to all the Elven fans out there, I've always wondered about Numénor kicking Noldor butt.

Imagine...

~If Numénor at it's peak of power was to square it off with the Noldor exiles that only just stepped onto Middle-Earth with the "light of Aman still in their eyes"~

Who will emerge victorious?

[Lord_Ov_The_Thunder]

i always thought about such a war, the numenoreans were tought by the eldar of Eressia, but they far outpassed them in strength of body and cunning of mind, even Gil-Galad asked for their help in his war with sauron, and sauron kicked the eldar's butt in Eregion, and Gil-Galad couldn't help, but when the Numenoreans under the command of Ar-Pharazon assailed Mordor, Sauron squeeked like a rat and offered no battle and all his servants fled!!! They are much stronger than the eldar....

I always thought that if the numenoreans existed in the war of the jewels it would have ended fast with victory to the Eldar and all the evils of Morgoth would be healed. As for the fight between the Noldor and the Numenoreans, the Numenoreans would kick the Noldor's butt and maybe they would surrender without anny offer of battle, just like what sauron did!!!!!

[Elessar_elfstone]

All riiiight...!

Great reply! Glad to meet another Numénor fan!

[afro-elf]

one the question was based on the elves JUST out of AMAN.

NOT about the elves of the second age.

I "believe" the main part of the NOLDAR had gone west

also there is something about "turin being fast as an Elf and strong as a man"

this suggest that elves were fast and men strong BUT was Turin hanging around Sindar or Noldar?

Did the sindar or noldar teach the Numénoreans?


Can someone using the works of the professor quote on the physical and mental prowess of Elves, Men and Dwarves?


I ASSUMED because I don't have all the books

that the Noldar LORDS were the most powerful in strength
didn't finrod break his bonds to fight a werewolf to his death?

How long was he in bondage? wasn't he weakened but the song duel against sauron too?

Then I thought that the regular Noldar and High men were next on equal footing

dwarves would either go above or below. i'm not sure there i've little info on them

then middle men

the sindar

the avari

I guess hobbits would be next.



for speed I thought as ALL elves being faster than the other races

as far as endurance i would go for elves too.
legolas did not tire in the pursuit of pippin an merry and could have kept going but Aragorn and Gimli needed rest.

I think Voronwe says something to the affect that the winter would have to be deep and the hunger long to kill and elf ( Noldar)

all Elves were immune to disease ( so I believe)

I think dwarves would be next

then High men and hobbits

then middle men

as far as mental acumen I do not know it seems that elves, dwarves and high men were all capable of great engineering,

all races seem to possess intelligenmce and insight yet also could be plagued by passions and bad judgement

here all were equal. elves just lived long so their "wisdom" was from experience


also think about what example you are using

the Avg. high man is greater that the avg middle man BUT an excpetional middle man could be better than a high man

beleg was sindar ( i think) but he seem like he could kick some AVG. noldar butt. but not a noldo lord

bariman was stronger than an avg hobbit but a farm boy tallfellow( dnd term i think) might be tough for him to handle

[Tar-Elenion]

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Quote:
i always thought about such a war, the numenoreans were tought by the eldar of Eressia, but they far outpassed them in strength of body and cunning of mind,
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Thats an interesting opinion. Perhaps you can provide some citations to back up this opinion (the Numenoreans being far greater in body and mind than the Noldor).

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Quote:
even Gil-Galad asked for their help in his war with sauron, and sauron kicked the eldar's butt in Eregion, and Gil-Galad couldn't help,
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And he beat the Eldar and Numenoreans in Eriador until the main Numenorean forces were able to attack the rear of Sauron's forces. But it took both the Eldar and Numenoreans to drive Sauron out of Eriador.

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Quote
but when the Numenoreans under the command of Ar-Pharazon assailed Mordor, Sauron squeeked like a rat and offered no battle and all his servants fled!!! They are much stronger than the eldar....
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JRRT said that Sauron "had no enemies so great and so fell as were the Noldor in their might in the Elder Days".


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Quote:
I always thought that if the numenoreans existed in the war of the jewels it would have ended fast with victory to the Eldar and all the evils of Morgoth would be healed. As for the fight between the Noldor and the Numenoreans, the Numenoreans would kick the Noldor's butt and maybe they would surrender without anny offer of battle, just like what sauron did!!!!!
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Sauron's personal surrender was voluntary and a trick. Ar-Pharazon did not conquer Sauron.

[afro-elf]

JRRT said that Sauron "had no enemies so great and so fell as were the Noldor in their might in the Elder Days".

Cool, where did he say this?

[Ñólendil]

I think I remember reading that in Unfinished in Part Four; the PalantÃ*ri section. If not, then probably in Morgoth's Ring (Vol. X of HoMe), in Myths Transformed. Perhaps in Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion, most of which has actually been posted here on Entmoot.

[Finmandos12]

I always thought that if the numenoreans existed in the war of the jewels it would have ended fast with victory to the Eldar and all the evils of Morgoth would be healed.

You are forgetting how much more powerful Morgoth was than Sauron.

[Ñólendil]

I think Sauron was actually as great at the end of the Third Age as Melkor was at the end of the First. Melkor's power was merely disseminated, while Sauron's was concentrated. Tolkien said (in Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion published in Morgoth's Ring) that Sauron was greater at the height of his power in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Since he was far diminished in power by the time the War of the Ring hit the scene, I assume they were about the same.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Would not the fact just that Morgoth was vala, and Sauron was Maia make a difference in their levels of power?

[Ñólendil]

Yes, and that was true for a while. Note that Sauron was never equal to or greater than Melkor while the two were both 'alive' (so to speak). But it changed when Melkor diminished himself by putting his will, power and spirit into the very matter of the Earth. At the end of the First Age Sauron was probably nearly as powerful as his Master because of this. Then there was the Ring, it enhanced Sauron's power. So Sauron became more powerful than Melkor had been at the end of the First Age. Then at the end of the Second Age Sauron lost his Ring and died, that diminished him a lot. So logically in the Third Age Sauron would then become as powerful as Melkor at the end of the First Age.

Ofcourse originally Melkor was the greatest of all the Ainur; the most powerful spirit that existed save Eru.

[Lord Theseus]

Although we do not know quite what was purported in "Morgoth's Ring", my guess is that the quote relates to Sauron and Morgoth in respect in to the individual. I cannot see how could Sauron's armies even compare with Morgoth's, when Morgoth and many Balrogs and great breeds of Dragons(Alcagon the Black, I know I spelled that wrong)? Sauron had orcs, but no Balrogs(remember how surprised the dwarves were with Durin's Bane) and certainly not as many dragons. It can only be assumed that as Inoldonil said that Morgoth put so much effort into changing the earth, that he lost individual power. Similarly, Sauron put so much effort into the ring, that he didn't have much left without it. That might explain the quote of Morgoth's Ring

So could Numenor defeat the Noldor? Well, if you took all the Noldor, I believe that they were numbered in many more numbers than Numenor, which was only a small portion of men(the descendants of the three houses). Thus Numenor would loose. In general, I think that it is clear that the elves are more powerful than men. Remember that the men that are "noble and strong" were ones with elven blood or who lived with elves. The elves having the light of Aman in their eyes, the wisdom of immortality were constantly like this. Moreover, do we forget Glorfindel, who could ride against the Nine and the witch king of Angmar, which naught of men could do? The elves have great power over those who die, and the deathless, somthing men do not. This was said by Gandalf.

[Captain Stern]

Yes Lord Theseus I agree with you, that's the only way it makes sense. I remember suggesting what you said to Inoldonil a few months back but I never got a reply.

Morgoth had Orcs, Humans, Warewolves, Dragons, Balrogs and not to mention other corrupted Maiar drawn to his service.

All Sauron had were Orcs and Men and perhaps Worgs.

[Wayfarer]

Well... It depends.

The noldor would almost certainly defeat the Numenoreans in open battle. , They had the better infantry and archery. Plus better weapons.

Numenor would most likely triumph in a naval confrontation though.