Arwen with price tag.

[Olmer]

"Therefore, though I love you, I say to you; Arwen Undomiel shall not diminish her life grace for less cause. She shall not be the bride of an't man less than the king of both Gondor and Arnor. “
Naturally, any parent at given situation would be looking for a good reason to avoid such untimely and sad death of the child,as it was in prospect for Arwen.
But Elrond, allthought that he set out almost impossible conditions, did not dismiss Aragorn's claim alltogether, but just put a higher bid on his daughter.
How come that 2700 yers old young girl could not find a better suitor before?
What about valiant and handsome Glorfindel? Erestor? Gildor?..Was it put just similarly impossible demands on anyone who was seeking Arwen's hand?
Why father, but not she herself, was putting conditions on the future marriage? Her grandma seems never put herself in position to stay under anyone order. Why Arwen happily goes along with her daddy decision?
The answer is only one : because she DID NOT CARE. She was not in love with nobody, not even Aragorn.
At the given time this marriage was a politically essential arrangement for the elves .

[Gordis]

Well, it is difficult to delve into the psychology of a 2700 year-old girl… It seems certain that men in general had sex-appeal for elven maids, more so than elf-males. Idril has chosen Tuor over Maeglin, Luthien chose Beren over Daeron, Mithrellas married Imrazor the Numenorean while she had a choice of elves in Lorien. A peredhil lady may have had a stronger penchant for men than an average "she-elf". So nothing strange that Arwen has not fallen for Erestor, Gildor or Glorfindel (especially considering the possibility that all the three were married already). But I think that if any of them asked for Arwen's hand, Elrond would have happily agreed.

Of course, the tale of Aragorn and Arwen reflects that of Beren and Luthien. On one hand Elrond was surely nicer than Thingol. But on the other hand Luthien was a much stronger character than Arwen. She went with Beren no matter what, actually was the one to save him and to take the Silmaril from Morgoth himself. She braved Sauron, Morgoth and Mandos for her love. Arwen was weaker, faded already. I believe she did love Aragorn, as much as she was able. After all Arwen could have married Aragorn without becoming a mortal herself, but she has chosen to follow him in death, rather than join her father. But it was not a fiery love of Luthien, but a faded version of it. Of course, if Arwen turned to warpath with Aragorn she would have been of little help, she was not a powerful half-maia sorceress like Luthien. She waited and waited and embroidered a banner, but nothing else. Almost a half of Aragorn's life has passed while she waited…

[Gordis]

Hi, Olmer and other Mooters,
How do you think, IF Sauron had not caught Gollum he may have started the war 50 or even 100 years later than he did. Without the war Aragorn would have had no chances to become the King of Arnor and Gondor. Would Arwen marry him nonetheless?

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by gordis

Hi, Olmer and other Mooters,
How do you think, IF Sauron had not caught Gollum he may have started the war 50 or even 100 years later than he did. Without the war Aragorn would have had no chances to become the King of Arnor and Gondor. Would Arwen marry him nonetheless?

Interesting thought. Unfortunately I do not have a convincing answer.

It probably depends on a few things:
What else occurs in ME?
Who has the ring?
What is the general landscape of ME?
Probably more things than I can think about at the moment.

If it is as Olmer states

Originally Posted by Olmer

The answer is only one : because she DID NOT CARE. She was not in love with nobody, not even Aragorn.
At the given time this marriage was a politically essential arrangement for the elves .

Then I would say it may still be politically viable for Arwen to marry Aragorn.
(depending on how viable Aragorn is. IIRC, I think Aragorn lived to about 230 years. Aragorn should still in the prime of his life till he turns about 150.)

It is possible that Sauron would not start his war until he finds the one ring.

[Jon S.]

Olmer, I respectfully disagree with your analysis of at a minimum Elrond's motivations. Remember how Denethor characterized Aragorn, "Last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship."? Well, truth be known, he pretty much was. I have no doubt Aragorn, despite the rosy picture of him portrayed in the books (I may be a rare example of someone who actually prefers his multidimensional, realistic movie portrayal), would be aided by a little "targeted motivators."

Elrond gave him that in spades when he set his "condition" because as all of us men know, the s- we will do and put up with for love we won't for nothing else.

And as for Arwen, she believed in him and his capabilities so, for her, it meant essentially just waiting a bit longer for events to play out as expected. Just my view but I would not characterize Arwen's quiet confidence as a faded version of anything.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by gordis

How do you think, IF Sauron had not caught Gollum he may have started the war 50 or even 100 years later than he did.
Without the war Aragorn would have had no chances to become the King of Arnor and Gondor. Would Arwen marry him nonetheless?

No, she wouldn't. Her marriage conditions, set by her father, was that she is marrying a powerful ruler of the lands which is neighboring with elves domains. This marriage will cement respect and security of diminishing elven's kingdoms. Who needs a dirt-nosed ranger!
Aragorn knew that under present circumstances he did not have a chance. The elves were saying to him the same ,what they were saying to all 15 previous chieftans of Dunedain: his time did not come,yet. After 30 years of soul-searching he finally realized, that unless something whould be done , his time woun't come ever.Why Aragorn? And when the chance has come to make a decision, he did it as a King and a Ranger:without asking nobody and in very sly way. And an attempt turned into success!
Up to that time Sauron was busy remodeling and redecorating his Barad - Dur , but the slow moving wheels of war started to pick up the speed after a poor little maniac "ventured himself into Mordor" to be tortured and to tip Sauron about the Ring's whereabout.
Gandalf, without having the second thought about real intentions of his "friend"(Aragorn) who said to him that ..." something draw him away" .. , was puzzling at what kind of obstacle made Gollum to turn in opposite of his intended direction .
Little did he know that "something" was that same" friend", who is, using his experience as ranger, made it in such subtle way that neither Gandalf nor Gollum himself ever suspected of the intended plan.
Aragorn needed the war , because only the war could give him a chance to claim the throne of Gondor, and he provoked it, trying to make it happen in spite of whatever Gandalf's plans had been.

Originally Posted by mithrand1r

Then I would say it may still be politically viable for Arwen to marry Aragorn.
(depending on how viable Aragorn is. IIRC, I think Aragorn lived to about 230 years. Aragorn should still in the prime of his life till he turns about 150.)

What do you mean? Politically practical to marry Aragorn-the ranger or to marry Aragorn without love?

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by Olmer

What do you mean? Politically practical to marry Aragorn-the ranger or to marry Aragorn without love?

The former.
If Sauron waited 100yrs to unleash his war machine on ME, I think Aragorn would be about 190 yrs old. Aragorn is older yes, but he is still in his prime.

If Aragorn is to old to effectively function in the War of the Rings he probably would not be able to reclaim his kingdom and thus not be able to wed Arwen.

[Gordis]

Just for clarification: Aragorn lived for 210 years (TA 2931 - 1541 Shire Reconing: It would have been TA 3141)
Yes I am afraid Arwen would not marry a simple ranger. Perhaps her grandma would keep her in store for the next wannabe king of Gondor and Arnor. Perhaps for Halbarad's son or grandson...
Olmer is right that Aragorn WAS INTERESTED in the war starting ASAP. As for pushing Gollum into Mordor... there are no proofs, of course. But there are no facts to counter this argument.
At least let's be glad Aragorn didn't murder Echtelion II and Denethor while he served in Gondor as Thorongil... He would have been inetersted in that too.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Cosider Her liniage. Arwen is
The The 3rd most senior heir of Finwe/Noldor in ME.
*The 2nd most senior heir of Fingolfin in ME.*
*The 2nd most senior heir of Finarfin in ME.*
The 2nd most senior heir of Thingol/Sindar in ME.
The 2nd most senior heir of Marach/3rd house of Edain in ME.
The 2nd most senior heir of Beor/1rst house of Edain in ME.
The 2nd most senior heir of Halad/2nd house of Edain in ME.
likely the 2nd most senior heir of Ignwe (either through his sister, or maybe a descendent, since we are not sure of Elenwe's ancestry) in ME, but we are not sure of that.

That is a lot of royal descent to deal with, even if most of them did not alow for female monarchs.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

you know, considering all lineage et al, elrond should have just got an army up, and taken all the elven and edain kingdoms, and ruled middle earth, he was most likely in league with sauron

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

Cosider Her liniage. Arwen is
...That is a lot of royal descent to deal with, even if most of them did not alow for female monarchs.

It is very interesting, but, sorry, LS, I can't understand what your point is.
Could you perhaps elaborate a little?

[Lefty Scaevola]

That Elrond wants an exalted billet for Arwen.

[Gordis]

Well, sure he does.
Thanks for the answer.

[olsonm]

Elrond isn't concerned with the personal or political ramifications of his daughter's marriage. No one could be worthy of his daughter's life; no one. But Elrond sees that Arwen's union with Aragorn is fated by a higher power in order to restore the line of Kings. His restriction on their marriage is for the sake of prudence so that Arwen's sacrifice will not be in vain. In other words, he's asking them to wait until their future is secure.

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by olsonm

In other words, he's asking them to wait until their future is secure.

In other words he is asking a bride's price. Hopefully it was not Silmarill this time, only Sauron's head on a plate.

And I agree with Olmer that Arven cared not at all for Aragorn. The fool just didn't understand it with all that Beren story in the background.
HE SHOULD HAVE WED EOWYN!

[durinsbane2244]

however political this wedding was, elrond had to have at least LIKED aragorn, he lived in rivendell with elrond, elrond urged to him to become the king, and elrond eventually gave in to their love.

[Jon S.]

With due respect, I feel there is an overabundance of simplicity and cynicism in this thread. Why don't we pay close attention to the complexity, thoughtfulness, forethought, and sacrifice in what Elrond actually said and did?

>> But Elrond saw many things and read many hearts. One day, therefore, before the fall of the year he called Aragorn to his chamber, and he said: "Aragorn, Arathorn's son, Lord of the Dunedain, listen to me! A great doom awaits you, either to rise above the height of all your fathers since the days of Elendil, or to fall into darkness with all that is left of your kin. Many years of trial lie before you. You shall neither have wife, nor bind any woman to you in troth, until your time comes and you are found worthy of it."

And:

>> "[T]here will be no choice before Arwen, my beloved, unless you, Aragorn, Arathorn's son, come between us and bring one of us, you or me, to a bitter parting beyond the end of the world. You do not know yet what you desire of me." He sighed, and after a while, looking gravely at the young man, he said again: "The years will bring what they will ..." Then Aragorn took leave lovingly of Elrond ...

And:

>> "My son, years come when hope will fade, and beyond them little is clear to me. And now a shadow lies between us. Maybe, it has been appointed so, that that by my loss the kingdom of Men may be restored. Therefore, though I love you, I say to you: Arwen Undomiel shall not diminish her life's grace for less cause. She shall not be the bride of any Man less than the King of both Gondor and Arnor. To me then even our victory can bring only sorrow and parting - but to you hope of joy for a while. For a while. Alas, my son! I fear that to Arwen the Doom of Men may seem hard at the ending."

...

"Then the King welcomed his guests, and they alighted; and Elrond surrendered the sceptre, and laid the hand of his daughter in the hand of the King ..."

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by Olmer

[B]Why Arwen happily goes along with her daddy decision?
The answer is only one : because she DID NOT CARE. She was not in love with nobody, not even Aragorn. At the given time this marriage was a politically essential arrangement for the elves .

The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen's content renders this position untenable. By her words and actions, Arwen does not resemble this caricature of her motivations.

[olsonm]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

With due respect, I feel there is an overabundance of simplicity and cynicism in this thread. Why don't we pay close attention to the complexity, thoughtfulness, forethought, and sacrifice in what Elrond actually said and did?

Exactly. Elrond was not Thingol. (nor Arwen a prize)

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

And I agree with Olmer that Arven cared not at all for Aragorn. The fool just didn't understand it with all that Beren story in the background.
HE SHOULD HAVE WED EOWYN!

Just a thought, probably not relevant to this thread.

Could Aragorn really wed Eowyn (provided Arwen had never existed)?

I think not. Aragorn had to make a claim to the throne of Gondor. Not all descendants of Anarion had died in Gondor, but they were not eligible for the throne because either 1. They descended from a woman of Anarion's line (as, I believe, was the case of the Stewards) or 2. They married women of lesser blood (not dunedain). So Aragorn could not claim the throne if he were married (or was planning to marry) a barbarian.