Did Sauron imprison the Moria Balrog?

[CAB]

In Appendix A of the Lord of the Rings it says that the Balrog of Moria was “roused from sleep” or released from prison by the Dwarves. It also states that the Balrog had been there since the end of the First Age. I can think of no other examples of someone sleeping for over 5000 years in the history of Middle Earth. This option seems very unlikely to me, so I am going to focus on imprisonment.

Who could be found in this part of Middle Earth early in the Second Age capable of imprisoning the Balrog? Galadriel? Maybe, but she and Celeborn didn’t seem to be aware of what was the evil force in Moria when the Fellowship came to Lorien. Who else? I would guess only Sauron.

Here is the scenario I would like to propose. The Balrog escapes from Morgoth’s defeat at the end of the First Age, while Sauron is captured. Later, Sauron escapes and comes further east with thoughts of becoming the new Dark Lord. The logical thing for him to do is search for the strongest help available, the Balrog, who he finds hiding under the Misty Mountains. The Balrog refuses to accept Sauron as it’s new master. It may be afraid of the Valar, want to be it’s own boss, or have another reason. Sauron’s reaction isn’t to kill the Balrog, but to imprison it. This would seem to be a much more cruel punishment, a fitting revenge for someone like Sauron.

Much later, the Balrog is released by the Dwarves. It kills many of the inhabitants of Moria and takes possession of the place as it’s new home. Why doesn’t it leave Moria and seek vengeance against Sauron? Because it is scared. It doesn’t want to be stuck in a stone box for another few thousand years. The Balrog would rather stay in a strong place (probably much like the Witch King in Angmar) so it can defend itself against Sauron.

c. 2480 Orcs begin to make secret strongholds in the Misty Mountains so as to bar all the passes into Eriador. Sauron begins to people Moria with his creatures. - Tale of Years, The Return of the King

Some would argue that this quote proves that Sauron was in control of the inhabitants of Moria. I would disagree. If he was, why did the attacks on Lorien during the War of the Rings at the end of the Third Age come only from Dol Guldur? Also, why wasn’t there a stronger force stationed at Moria? It seems to be especially strong in a military sense. It has access to both sides of the mountains, is close to Lorien, and controls the Redhorn pass. Also, it all but unconquerable from without. Sauron himself, at the height of his power in the Second Age was unable to take Moria. I would guess that the Orcs that Sauron sent to Moria were quickly converted by the Balrog to it’s own cause.

There is also the Balrog’s fight with Gandalf. Apparently Gandalf took the upper hand during the fight and the Balrog fled from him. It ran and ran from the roots of the mountains all the way up the Endless Stair to the peak of Silvertine. It fled all this way, got outside where it could escape and did what? It turned and fought Gandalf to the death?! Does that make any sense? I would guess that it was so afraid of leaving it’s stronghold and becoming vulnerable to Sauron, that it was forced to face Gandalf again. Gandalf probably fully expected the Balrog to jump or fly off (I am not trying to start that debate) at this point.

I have a few other points but this is becoming a long post, so I will leave it at that for now.

[durinsbane2244]

BRILLIANT! that makes sense! sauron would be quite mad if the balrog didn't help, imagine TWO fallen maia fighting in ME! i doubt he forsaw how much death and havoc the balrog would cause, but it worked in the end...except that gandalf came back!

[Earniel]

You make an interesting case, CAB, but I am not yet convinced.

It is said that at the end of the First Age the surviving Balrogs fled and hid in the dark places of the world. The Balrog were originally Maiar so I can certainly take magic into account for 'sleeping' so long. They're immortal so they don't have to worry about time. They can afford to wait as long as they like.

The last war against Morgoth must definitely have been very frightening for Morgoth's side, which I can quite understand. After all, the dragons were nearly wiped out, the Balrogs too were defeated (and while their numbers were subject to change in Tolkien's drafts, not many survived whatever their original number was.) and Morgoth's armies scattered or crushed. I don't mind assuming this spooked the Balrog enough to go and hide and don't show his face for millennia in fear of being hunted.

Taking a millennia long nap is then quite a good decision, IMO. You don't get bored in between, you don't draw attention to yourself, you don't have to eat and who knows, in a few thousands of years everyone has forgotten about you and nobody will be looking for you anymore.

Sleeping is one thing, waking is another. I doubt even as a Maia of fire, the Balrog would have an alarm clock. So propably he slept soundly (I was going to say like a baby but it doesn't really fit a Balrog) until woken.

About the prison. One way I'd say it could be done by the Valar's forces, if they spotted the Balrog fleeing and supposing they found its hiding place. It is possible that they could not draw the Balrog from its hiding place, after all this was before the Khazad-dum was dug, right?, so there wouldn't have been much tunnels. If they couldn't draw him out, imprisonment might have been the best course and they could have sealed him off, deep into his hiding place.

But since nothing in writing speaks of the Valar and their forces imprisoning a Balrog, this is of course just a theory. Although, since the whole account of the war with Melkor is rather sketchy, while it should have lasted years and changed the land tremendously, it is possible that a lot of things happened in the fight that weren't written and thus we don't know about.

But still, if the Valar had imprisoned the Balrog, or whether Sauron imprisoned the Balrog, I can't put it past me that Tolkien wouldn't have written at least a short mention of it. He wrote of Balrogs fleeing and hiding to explain the Moria Balrog, why wouldn't he have added who imprisoned him too?

Which is why I'm inclined to believe that no one imprisoned him knowingly. After the war, the land must have been in quite some upheaval, after all large portions of land sank beneath the waves. Geologically if a portion of the land goes down, another usually goes up and forms mountains. And in 5000 years I'm assuming quite some tectonic and geological activity goes on. I think the Balrog merely got trapped in his hiding place.

I've gotten so wordy that I'll give my view about the fight with Gandalf and the absense of attack from Moria on Lorien later.

[Gordis]

Very interesting indeed CAB.
I agree that the Barlog has been imprisoned, intentionally or unintentionally.

There is no way to know if it really happened the way you proposed, or by one of the ways described by Earniel.
I suppose that, most likely, the Barlog made it from Angband at the beginning of the War and hid in a deep hole out of fear and then got incarcerated by falling rocks during the earthquakes of the War of Wraith, when the whole Baleriand was destroyed.

Originally Posted by CAB

Why doesn’t it leave Moria and seek vengeance against Sauron? Because it is scared. It doesn’t want to be stuck in a stone box for another few thousand years.

Perhaps, if it were not Sauron who imprisoned him, he just didn't want to confront his former colleague?
But I agree that the Barlog was NOT in Sauron's service.

[brownjenkins]

I like the idea CAB.

[brownjenkins]

Though the "geological" imprisonment that Eärniel mentioned is how I always imagined it when I read the book.

[CAB]

Thank you to everybody for their replies. I would say that the geological explanation is possible, but I think it is less likely than the Sauron explanation.

First of all, Moria was in existence in the First Age.

After the end of the First Age the power and wealth of Khazad-dum was much increased; for it was enriched by many people and much lore and craft when the ancient cities of Nogrod and Belegost in the Blue Mountains were ruined at the breaking of Thangorodrim. -Appendix A, The Return of the King

If there was sufficient geological activity to imprison the Balrog (which, of course, was below Moria, not in it) then Moria itself probably would have been greatly damaged. There is no indication of such damage having taken place. The Dwarves from Norgrod and Belegost probably wouldn’t want to rebuild another stronghold after they abandoned their own (not that Moria would likely have been as badly damaged as the places in the Blue Mountains).

Also, you will recall that the Balrog was “trapped” by a rock fall after the struggle with Gandalf at the door. Now maybe this was a relatively minor rock fall and maybe not. Regardless, it certainly didn’t take the Balrog long to escape from it.

There is also Tolkien’s choice of the word “prison”. This can be used to describe a situation where someone is unintentionally trapped, but more often it indicates a person purposely being held.

One other point. If the Balrog had been trapped by accident, we might think it would be eager to leave it’s underground lair, where such a thing could happen again. Yet we see just the opposite.

These points (and I still have some others) along with the rest of the argument don’t prove anything. But they make me lean towards the idea that Sauron imprisoned the Balrog.

[Olmer]

Great Theory,CAB!
And quite believable.But I have to agree with Earniel. Most probable cause is Balrog's unintentional "imprisonment" at the time of Beleriand's destruction.
BTW, why he would want to leave comfortable tunnels of Moria:quiet, warm and mosquitos are not biting?

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by CAB

Much later, the Balrog is released by the Dwarves. It kills many of the inhabitants of Moria and takes possession of the place as it’s new home. Why doesn’t it leave Moria and seek vengeance against Sauron? Because it is scared. It doesn’t want to be stuck in a stone box for another few thousand years. The Balrog would rather stay in a strong place (probably much like the Witch King in Angmar) so it can defend itself against Sauron.

Supposing the Balrog did know of Sauron, I don't think it didn't leave Moria out of fear. Somehow I have the idea that the Balrogs and Sauron pretty much held the same height of position under Morgoth's rule. I don't see a Balrog, such an ancient power, bowing to Sauron who he'd possibly saw as a peer, not a master.

In Moria the Balrog was suppreme ruler when he had kicked out the Dwarves. No one came to contest his will and rule until the Fellowship stumbled in. He didn't have to leave Moria, he had everything he could need right there. Servants and food in the orcs, fire below and perpetual darkness to dwell in. Sounds like Balrog heaven to me.

That, I think, is also the reason why he stood and fought Gandalf instead of fleeing. As soon as he managed to rekindle his flame, he stood again a chance against the wizard. He didn't want to leave out of fear, he just liked his little kingdom too much.

Originally Posted by CAB

If there was sufficient geological activity to imprison the Balrog (which, of course, was below Moria, not in it) then Moria itself probably would have been greatly damaged. There is no indication of such damage having taken place. The Dwarves from Norgrod and Belegost probably wouldn’t want to rebuild another stronghold after they abandoned their own (not that Moria would likely have been as badly damaged as the places in the Blue Mountains).

The Dwarves are very capable constructors, it wouldn't surprise me their tunnels and halls are very much earth quake-proof. Even if the upheaval at the End of the First Age did do some damage to Khazad-dum, it would have been rapidly repaired, especially as Khazad-dum was to know a great influx in people and size soon after it.

The Balrog strikes me as less a professional tunnel-maker, his way of getting deep below the Mines must have been a lot more rickety.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Somehow I have the idea that the Balrogs and Sauron pretty much held the same height of position under Morgoth's rule. I don't see a Balrog, such an ancient power, bowing to Sauron who he'd possibly saw as a peer, not a master.

This is a reason for the Balrog to refuse Sauron after Sauron seeks him out. And if the Balrog believed (at first) it was actually as strong as Sauron, it was probably mistaken. Gandalf defeated the Balrog in single combat, could he do that with Sauron?

Originally Posted by Eärniel

In Moria the Balrog was suppreme ruler when he had kicked out the Dwarves. No one came to contest his will and rule until the Fellowship stumbled in. He didn't have to leave Moria, he had everything he could need right there. Servants and food in the orcs, fire below and perpetual darkness to dwell in. Sounds like Balrog heaven to me.

That, I think, is also the reason why he stood and fought Gandalf instead of fleeing. As soon as he managed to rekindle his flame, he stood again a chance against the wizard. He didn't want to leave out of fear, he just liked his little kingdom too much.

It must have been clear that the Fellowship was merely passing through. They were too few to challenge the Moria force and were actually making for the gate when the Balrog attacked Gandalf. It probably could have continued fleeing from Gandalf and returned to Moria later. However, and I know this sounds strange in a big, strong Balrog, I think after it’s imprisonment it was too paranoid to spend any time outside. Look also at it’s behavior at the end of the Dwarf and Goblin wars. Even if it didn’t want to become involved it could have stuck it’s head out the door to see what was happening, but it didn’t. Surely it wasn’t afraid of the Dwarves.

Maybe the Balrog’s power increased when it rekindled it’s flame, but if so it apparently wasn’t enough. Actually I think that it’s external appearance (amount of flame) was due in part to it’s internal mood. It may have burst into flame because it decided it had to attack Gandalf instead of deciding to attack Gandalf after it managed to rekindle itself.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

The Dwarves are very capable constructors, it wouldn't surprise me their tunnels and halls are very much earth quake-proof. Even if the upheaval at the End of the First Age did do some damage to Khazad-dum, it would have been rapidly repaired, especially as Khazad-dum was to know a great influx in people and size soon after it.

The Balrog lived at the foundation of Moria. I am no expert, but it seems to me that if the foundation is shifting, the rest of the structure must be affected, no matter how well built. If the Dwarves were in the mood to repair damaged homes they could have stayed in the Blue Mountains and repaired or rebuilt their own.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

The Balrog strikes me as less a professional tunnel-maker, his way of getting deep below the Mines must have been a lot more rickety.

Yes, I would have to guess that you are right. But whatever it’s method was, it was sufficient to allow it to escape from the rock fall it and Gandalf caused very quickly.

Thank you for the discussion Earniel.

[The Gaffer]

Yay, another beezer thread! Well done CAB!

Something that is missing from the discussion so far is the residual will of Melkor/Morgoth.

In the Music, Melkor's was the greatest voice, and as a result, his themes ran throughout all of the world. Evil was inherent in all things, even after Morgoth was cast out into the void. There is an explicit statement somewhere in the Sil to this effect.

Throughout LOTR there are references to evil things "stirring" as if in a co-ordinated fashion, and I think this is tied in with Morgoth's universal dial tone for evil.

Now, I can't remember what it says about how the Balrog was woken; there is some vague recollection that it may have already been awake when "released" by the dwarves. But anyway, I suspect that its biorhythms were supposed to be associated with changes in the dial tone.

Other stuff that might relate would be the (can't remember what it's called) battle where the Valar captured Melkor prior to the Kinslaying. IIRC, balrogs and other creatures successfully hid in the deepest pits of Utumno (or Thangorodrim, can't remember which one). Then, when Melkor took one in the guts in Lammoth, they were roused and sallied forth.

So I tend to go with Earniel's account: the balrog hid in the deepest place he could find and went to sleep until the fuss died down. When he woke up, he liked the decor and yet could tell that it wasn't the time to go a-pillaging.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by CAB

This is a reason for the Balrog to refuse Sauron after Sauron seeks him out. And if the Balrog believed (at first) it was actually as strong as Sauron, it was probably mistaken. Gandalf defeated the Balrog in single combat, could he do that with Sauron?

Sauron's strength changed over the ages, so it will depend on which time you refer to. If Sauron did meet the Balrog face to face 'shortly' after the First Age, before Rings of Power came in the picture, a Sauron-Balrog match would have been even matched, or rather even in the benefit of the Balrog, IMO. Let's not forget that even Húan could deal with Sauron in certain situations. I doubt the Dog of Valinor could have treated a Balrog quite the same way.

But it doesn't explain why and how Sauron would find the Balrog. How did he know he was there? And why would he think the Balrog would obey him?

However, and I know this sounds strange in a big, strong Balrog, I think after it’s imprisonment it was too paranoid to spend any time outside. Look also at it’s behavior at the end of the Dwarf and Goblin wars. Even if it didn’t want to become involved it could have stuck it’s head out the door to see what was happening, but it didn’t. Surely it wasn’t afraid of the Dwarves.

Perhaps it deemed its involvement was yet not warranted. The Dwarves did win that day, but at heavy costs, and -I could be wrong, as I can't remember correctly- the orcs were not yet routed to the very last orc. The Dwarves perceived the day was not yet right to reclaim Moria. Was that because the Bane of Dúrin still lurked undefeated within? And did they realise it was beyond their strenght to vanquish? I don't know. And so I can only guess what would have happened if the Dwarves had persisted that day and had entered Moria. If they had, I think the Balrog would have come forward to show just who was the true Master of Moria.

The Balrog lived at the foundation of Moria. I am no expert, but it seems to me that if the foundation is shifting, the rest of the structure must be affected, no matter how well built. If the Dwarves were in the mood to repair damaged homes they could have stayed in the Blue Mountains and repaired or rebuilt their own.

Mountain foundations are strong, especially those of mountain ridges like the Misty Mountains. IMO there can't be one specific point that holds the hole mountain. Also,the Balrog couldn't have hidden at the very foundation of Moria, because no one in their right mind would have hidden in such a public place, so close to settlement, and the Dwarves surely would have dug him up, much, much sooner. It is IMO much more logical that the Balrog chose a more remote location, but as Khazad-dum grew and grew and the Dwarves were ever hungry for their True-Silver, they dug a lot further from the heart of Khazad-dum.

There is no mention of the extent of the damage Khazad-dum sustained, if it sustained any at all. At this point we're well into the speculation zone. But I think it stands to reason that a)a well contructed tunnel has more chances of surviving some geological movement then whatever way the Balrog could dig himself. b) A tunnel going deep down has more chances at being completely blocked and c) that if the damage to Khazad-dum had been too extensive the Dwarves wouldn't have bothered. Unless the presense of True-Silver was enough motive for the Dwarves not to return to their Blue Mountain-realms and repare their Khazad-dum dwelling whatever the cost.

Thank you for the discussion Earniel.

Thank you for the splendid topic, CAB. It's been a while since I had and could to form own theories on something Tolkienish and it has been a real mental treat.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Yay, another beezer thread! Well done CAB!

Something that is missing from the discussion so far is the residual will of Melkor/Morgoth.

In the Music, Melkor's was the greatest voice, and as a result, his themes ran throughout all of the world. Evil was inherent in all things, even after Morgoth was cast out into the void. There is an explicit statement somewhere in the Sil to this effect.

Throughout LOTR there are references to evil things "stirring" as if in a co-ordinated fashion, and I think this is tied in with Morgoth's universal dial tone for evil.

Now, I can't remember what it says about how the Balrog was woken; there is some vague recollection that it may have already been awake when "released" by the dwarves. But anyway, I suspect that its biorhythms were supposed to be associated with changes in the dial tone.

Other stuff that might relate would be the (can't remember what it's called) battle where the Valar captured Melkor prior to the Kinslaying. IIRC, balrogs and other creatures successfully hid in the deepest pits of Utumno (or Thangorodrim, can't remember which one). Then, when Melkor took one in the guts in Lammoth, they were roused and sallied forth.

So I tend to go with Earniel's account: the balrog hid in the deepest place he could find and went to sleep until the fuss died down. When he woke up, he liked the decor and yet could tell that it wasn't the time to go a-pillaging.

Thanks Gaffer. And thanks also for teaching me a new word. “Beezer” is a new one to me.

When I was first considering this question, I thought (and still think) the point you make about the Balrog waiting for Morgoth was the best argument for the “sleepy Balrog” theory. Like you said, the Balrogs waited for Morgoth after his first capture by the Valar. I don’t know if they were sleeping though. I prefer the idea I gave above, but this is a valid viewpoint.

Earniel, I think you and I will have to agree to disagree on this one. I am glad you enjoyed the topic though.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by CAB

Earniel, I think you and I will have to agree to disagree on this one. I am glad you enjoyed the topic though.

That's fine. If everyone always agreed with one another this would be a boring place.

[The Gaffer]

Beezer is a beezer word.

I would just rephrase it slightly. Rather than say "waiting for Morgoth", I would say "tuned in with the background hum of Morgoth's evil will". I suppose I kinda think of balrogs as being less calculating or independent of intellect than the likes of Sauron.

Just thought: "Waiting for Morgoth". Beckett goes Middle Earth! Three balrogs sitting around waiting for Morgoth to turn up?

[Butterbeer]

Beezer:

Main Entry: nose
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: organ
Synonyms: adenoids, banana, bazoo, beak*, Beezer, bill*, bow, bugle, honker, horn*, muzzle*, nares, neb, nostrils, nozzle, olfactory nerves, pecker, proboscis, prow, schnoz*, schnozzola, smeller*, sneezer*, sniffer*, snoot*, snout*, snuffer*, stem, trunk, whiffer*


yes!! We need more threads about Banana's with adenoids and big nozzles!
Well done CAB!


The one and only, The Gaffer:

I would just rephrase it slightly. Rather than say "waiting for Morgoth", I would say "tuned in with the background hum of Morgoth's evil will". I suppose I kinda think of balrogs as being less calculating or independent of intellect than the likes of Sauron.

Just thought: "Waiting for Morgoth". Beckett goes Middle Earth! Three balrogs sitting around waiting for Morgoth to turn up?

I like it!
I kinda agree about the Balrogs, in general.

Sort of Morgoth's beasts- Mia hunting dogs.

*damn! - have this Strong mental image of the three of them, hunched up over a smoky wooden ill-lit table, smoking, drinkin and playing cards now ...*


Best all, BB

[CAB]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

I would just rephrase it slightly. Rather than say "waiting for Morgoth", I would say "tuned in with the background hum of Morgoth's evil will".

I’m not sure I understand you here Gaffer. If we assume that the Balrog was waiting for a change but it wasn’t looking for Morgoth’s return then what was it waiting for? I know that Morgoth’s influence was built into the world but whenever it was er...time for great evil, that time coincided with the emergence of a very powerful evil individual (Morgoth, Sauron, and to a lesser extent, the Witch King). Yes, Sauron was still emerging during the Third Age when the Balrog would have awoken, but it would have slept right through the evil time during the Second Age, when Sauron was much more powerful and was essentially banging on a door above the Balrog’s head.

[Butterbeer]

...and don't forget Gor's legendary stone hurtling down the well and cascading down, down, ever down into the deeps ... at last, far far below the ground and in the deadly dark to fall...

*kerplonk*


..right on the balrog's head!

That would have put him in a bad mood - i am sure of it ...



Ps - was he put there by Sau?

No way!

oops- gotta go!

best, BB

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by CAB

I’m not sure I understand you here Gaffer. If we assume that the Balrog was waiting for a change but it wasn’t looking for Morgoth’s return then what was it waiting for? I know that Morgoth’s influence was built into the world but whenever it was er...time for great evil, that time coincided with the emergence of a very powerful evil individual (Morgoth, Sauron, and to a lesser extent, the Witch King). Yes, Sauron was still emerging during the Third Age when the Balrog would have awoken, but it would have slept right through the evil time during the Second Age, when Sauron was much more powerful and was essentially banging on a door above the Balrog’s head.

Not quite. He never conquered Moria nor could he rival Numenor.

However, I don't think we need to see a very specific "barometer of evilness" to make sense of this.

BB has got it: the suggestion that balrogs are less "intelligent" or independent of mind than the likes of Sauron, more like dogs of war.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

BB has got it: the suggestion that balrogs are less "intelligent" or independent of mind than the likes of Sauron, more like dogs of war.

I don't think you are right. After all, the Captain of Morgoth's armies was Gothmog the Barlog, not Sauron, who did run away from a single female, helped by a man and a dog.
So Barlogs can be pretty intelligent. And the fact that the Barlog didn't choose to come and serve Sauron, only shows some free-thinking and independance.