Were the Nazgul free from Sauron for the most part of the Third Age?

[Curubethion]

Dang...so I was arguing for nothing...

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

This is a very interesting topic. Like the others, I always assumed the Nazgul were in complete and utter control, with or without their rings. Now that I've read through this thread, I have to agree with you Gordis. The Nazgul wanted out.

As to others being unaware of someone wearing the ring, IMO the ring hadn't taken control of them yet. Sure it had Gollum and Bilbo hooked, and later Frodo, but did Sauron have enough power then to "feel" the Ring at that time? That doesn't really explain why Gandolf of Elrond couldn't feel the ring, but the Ring has a will of it's own right? What if it was still trying to stay incognito and didn't want to be 'felt'? Galadriel knew the ring was coming to Lorien but do you think she knew the exact moment it entered her woods? I don't know. Maybe this is to many questions to ask, but; I have one more,well two more.

Do you think if the WK came across the Ring, he would take it for himself? Even if Sauron had his ring(the WK's) wouldn't the power of the one Ring give the WK enough power to take back his own ring and even defeat Sauron? I could be totally confused here.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Curubethion

Dang...so I was arguing for nothing...

I wouldn't say that. The idea that the rings were vital for the nazgul is absolutely correct.

Your hypothesis that a nazgul dies, if he takes off his Ring, is logical enough. Only Tolkien decided otherwise, and he was the Creator of his universe and the only authority in it.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

This is a very interesting topic. Like the others, I always assumed the Nazgul were in complete and utter control, with or without their rings. Now that I've read through this thread, I have to agree with you Gordis. The Nazgul wanted out.

As to others being unaware of someone wearing the ring, IMO the ring hadn't taken control of them yet. Sure it had Gollum and Bilbo hooked, and later Frodo, but did Sauron have enough power then to "feel" the Ring at that time? That doesn't really explain why Gandolf of Elrond couldn't feel the ring, but the Ring has a will of it's own right? What if it was still trying to stay incognito and didn't want to be 'felt'? Galadriel knew the ring was coming to Lorien but do you think she knew the exact moment it entered her woods? I don't know.

Thanks, Faramir!
Very good points. Sure, the Ring tried to make its presence known to EVIL beings, but probably tried to remain as inconspicuous as possible with Gandalf and Erlond. Sauron at the time of "the Hobbit", most likely had only 3 dwarven rings in his possession, and he was intent on searching in the River, not trying to detect someone wearing the One.

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

Maybe this is to many questions to ask, but; I have one more, well two more. Do you think if the WK came across the Ring, he would take it for himself? Even if Sauron had his ring(the WK's) wouldn't the power of the one Ring give the WK enough power to take back his own ring and even defeat Sauron? I could be totally confused here.

WAUU, you are asking exactly the FAMOUS Butterbeer's "WHAT IF" question. The discussion on the topic was raging about a year ago. I will try to find the topic - it would be most interesting to hear your opinion, as well as the opinions of all the other Mooters who didn't participate at the time.
http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.ph...2&page=3&pp=20

[CAB]

My opinion is that the Nazgul were free and holding their own rings for much of the third age, but not for as long as some here believe.

We know (from Tolkien’s Letters) that Sauron brought the One Ring with him to Numenor during the second age, so he had little reason to take the nine rings from the Nazgul. After Sauron’s defeat at the end of that age Sauron “forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away”. What happened after that?

I would guess that after many years (but long before the Nazgul took Minas Ithil) Sauron began collecting the nine rings. Since Sauron still had a hold in the spirit world (where the Nazgul primarily existed) he could probably interact with the Nazgul. He probably used trickery and guile rather than force to obtain the first ring and then used his new servant, then servants to get the others. This may well be the inspiration for Gandalf’s quote to the Council concerning the Nazgul as the “hunters before whom all have fled or fallen” (though this may be a bit unlikely). Do we know of them hunting anyone else before Bilbo/Frodo? To those who would object to Sauron being able to keep a ring without being fully bodied, remember that he carried the One Ring from Numenor to Middle Earth after his body had been destroyed.

During this time the Witch King came to Angmar. He probably came to get a kingdom of his own and a Palantir, but he may also have come to secure himself from Sauron’s pursuit of his ring. (On a side question, do you think he considered himself the rightful King of the Dunedain? Some of his actions may suggest this. Gordis said something similar to this in post 12.)

Why would the Witch King be the only Nazgul in Angmar? It was suggested earlier that he ordered the others to stay in hiding to keep his identity from the Wise, but why. The Wise usually have to be pushed into taking any action against their enemies and there are examples of them living very near evil powers for thousands of years without doing anything. As for him trying to hide his identity from Sauron, this makes more sense to me, but I think he would have a very difficult time doing it.

I believe that after Angmar’s fall and the Witch King’s subsequent flight, Sauron, with the help of the other (now enslaved) Nazgul, captured the Witch King and his ring. Remember that very soon after this all the Nazgul returned to Mordor and shortly thereafter took Minas Ithil, much securing Sauron’s true home. More evidence that the Witch King is now serving Sauron is that in contrast to his years in Angmar (where he seemed to follow an aggressive expansionist policy) he remained quiet after taking Minas Ithil, even when Gondor was vulnerable. Maybe he was just waiting for Sauron or maybe he had lost his ambitiousness since he was no longer his own master.

Part of the reason I came to these conclusions regarding the timing of Sauron’s recovery of the nine rings is that I find it very unlikely that both Nazgul with rings and Nazgul without rings would be living together in Minas Morgul. Also if all the Nazgul in Minas Morgul had their rings, I think it would be improbable for Sauron to retrieve them without fighting a large battle that the people in Gondor would have noticed and documented.

[Gordis]

Great input, CAB!

Originally Posted by CAB

We know (from Tolkien’s Letters) that Sauron brought the One Ring with him to Numenor during the second age, so he had little reason to take the nine rings from the Nazgul.

.
You are right, it is a short note in the letters, but it seems that Tolkien was positive about Sauron taking the One to Numenor. And (returning to my opening post) there was no real reason for Sauron to take nazgul rings and bury them in the Barad Dur foundations, as long as he himself kept the One. Even when the Siege of Barad-Dur was turning ill, he must have known that with Rings, the nazgul could escape unharmed very easily. Sauron could also have escaped, IMHO, if he wouldn't challenge Gil-Galad et al. in his arrogance.

I would guess that after many years (but long before the Nazgul took Minas Ithil) Sauron began collecting the nine rings. Since Sauron still had a hold in the spirit world (where the Nazgul primarily existed) he could probably interact with the Nazgul. He probably used trickery and guile rather than force to obtain the first ring and then used his new servant, then servants to get the others. This may well be the inspiration for Gandalf’s quote to the Council concerning the Nazgul as the “hunters before whom all have fled or fallen” (though this may be a bit unlikely). Do we know of them hunting anyone else before Bilbo/Frodo?

I think he might have used trickery and guile with the first victim, or with one or two subsequent ones, as long as the word of his real intentions didn't reach the other nazgul. After that, they must have avoided the Anduin Vale and Mirkwood like a plague. But by that time, Sauron's power grew (I believe his "taking shape" and "growing strong" were a direct result of gathering more Rings) and he used force to obtain other rings.

But I don't think that Gandalf's quote speaks of those times. Thrain was not hunted, he simply disappeared. Hunted nazgul were not Gandalf's concern. And few must have known of these hunts. I believe this quote simply refers to the Hunt for the Ring in the Vales in Summer 3018 and the flight of Rangers at Sarn Ford in September 3018. Alternatively, it might refer to some unknown "hunts" in Harad or Khand that resulted in bringing these countries under Sauron's dominion after his return to Mordor.

Originally Posted by CAB

During this time the Witch King came to Angmar. He probably came to get a kingdom of his own and a Palantir, but he may also have come to secure himself from Sauron’s pursuit of his ring. (On a side question, do you think he considered himself the rightful King of the Dunedain? Some of his actions may suggest this. Gordis said something similar to this in post 12.)

I think he did. Look at his crown at the Gates of Minas Tirith - he even took off his cowl to reveal it - the Return of the Rightful King , no less.

Originally Posted by CAB

Why would the Witch King be the only Nazgul in Angmar? It was suggested earlier that he ordered the others to stay in hiding to keep his identity from the Wise, but why. The Wise usually have to be pushed into taking any action against their enemies and there are examples of them living very near evil powers for thousands of years without doing anything. As for him trying to hide his identity from Sauron, this makes more sense to me, but I think he would have a very difficult time doing it.

You may be right. Simply no other nazgul was mentioned. If they were there, it should be in secret.

Originally Posted by CAB

I believe that after Angmar’s fall and the Witch King’s subsequent flight, Sauron, with the help of the other (now enslaved) Nazgul, captured the Witch King and his ring. Remember that very soon after this all the Nazgul returned to Mordor and shortly thereafter took Minas Ithil, much securing Sauron’s true home. More evidence that the Witch King is now serving Sauron is that in contrast to his years in Angmar (where he seemed to follow an aggressive expansionist policy) he remained quiet after taking Minas Ithil, even when Gondor was vulnerable. Maybe he was just waiting for Sauron or maybe he had lost his ambitiousness since he was no longer his own master.

That is a good idea. This scheme is quite workable. The only problem I see with it, is that there is no indication that the nazgul in Morgul helped Gondor's enemies in any of the subsequent invasions, when Gondor was in peril. Surely were they working for Sauron, they should have helped the Balchoths, for instance, or the Corsairs. Also there is no indication that during the Watchful peace Sauron visited Minas Morgul.

It has taken the Witch-King 5 years (TA 1975-80), to come from Angmar to Mordor, where he gathered the other nazgul. There was surely an easy way from Northeastern Angmar into the Vales (without it Angmar couldn't have existed on both sides of the Misty Mountains). So, probably, the Witch-King went down the Anduin Vale, and got caught by Sauron.

BTW - a crazy thought - in 1980 " The Witch-king comes to Mordor and there gathers the Nazgûl. A Balrog appears in Moria, and slays Durin VI" Tale of Years.
Perhaps it was Sauron who woke up the Barlog in 1975 and used him in the hunt for the Witch-King? Then the grumpy Barlog returned home in a very bad mood and attacked the unsuspecting Dwarves.

Originally Posted by CAB

Part of the reason I came to these conclusions regarding the timing of Sauron’s recovery of the nine rings is that I find it very unlikely that both Nazgul with rings and Nazgul without rings would be living together in Minas Morgul. Also if all the Nazgul in Minas Morgul had their rings, I think it would be improbable for Sauron to retrieve them without fighting a large battle that the people in Gondor would have noticed and documented.

Good points. Mixed company in Minas Morgul is a bit strange. Also unlikely is for Sauron to get all the Nine Rings at once, without some of the nazgul in Morgul acting against their comrades.

[CAB]

Thank you for your comments Gordis. Thank you also for starting and reopening this great thread.

I would like to say that I do think the Witch King was the only Nazgul in Angmar. The point I was trying to make is that maybe he used Angmar to secure himself from Sauron. Maybe he anticipated the capture of the other Nazgul and knew eventually they would come for him. This might even help explain his desire for the Palantiri. Also I would like to say that I believe that the Nazgul wouldn’t have stayed together while free from Sauron’s will. This would help explain why there seem to be no other Nazgul in Angmar, how Sauron was able to reacquire their rings, and strengthens the point that when the Nazgul came to Mordor as a group, they did so under Sauron’s control.

I admit that Minas Morgul taking no action against Gondor seems to be a weakness with my idea. However it seems just as strange that the Witch King, serving only himself, would remain neutral during Gondor’s vulnerable times unless his wars with Arnor were fought almost solely for the Palantiri. Yet we both agree that he considered himself the rightful King of the Dunedain. (By the way, your example of him revealing his crown in Minas Tirith is better evidence than anything I thought of. Perhaps Sauron gave him this crown and promised him the same lordship he promised the Mouth to inspire him to fight well against Gondor, since his motivation was sometimes questionable.) Sauron may have wanted the pleasure of defeating Gondor himself and the attacks he inspired by the men from the East and South were merely meant to weaken, not end, Gondor. He may have even been angry with the Witch King for completely destroying Arnor. (Also I am not sure what you mean by Sauron not visiting Minas Morgul. I agree that he probably didn't but if he already had all the Nazgul's rings why would he need to?)

As for the Balrog suggestion, I think it is a bit unlikely (it seems you do also). You would think a Balrog flying (or maybe I should say traveling) around Middle Earth would attract a lot of attention. The timing is interesting though. Maybe Saruon was using his will to try to draw the fleeing Witch King to him and this woke the Balrog. Or better still, maybe after Sauron obtained the Witch King’s ring his strength grew to the point that the Balrog was disturbed from it’s sleep. As you say, Sauron’s growth may be directly attached to his ring gathering.

I wanted to give my opinion concerning one other matter which was part of the earlier discussions; the extent of Sauron’s control of the Nazgul. I think a good comparison is the description of Saruman’s voice. When the voice of Saruman (or comparatively Sauron’s will) was directed at someone, that person found it very difficult to resist (in the case of Sauron/Nazgul probably all but impossible), but when the voice/will was turned elsewhere the person/Nazgul recovered some free will. In my opinion, Sauron couldn’t constantly be controlling the Nazgul this way. It is probable that exerting full control over even one Nazgul took a great deal of concentration. Sauron had other things to think about. I think most of the time Sauron controlled the Nazgul just as he controlled his other servants, primarily through fear.

[Gordis]

Thanks for your interesting comments, CAB. I appreciate them greatly.

Originally Posted by CAB

I would like to say that I do think the Witch King was the only Nazgul in Angmar. The point I was trying to make is that maybe he used Angmar to secure himself from Sauron. Maybe he anticipated the capture of the other Nazgul and knew eventually they would come for him. This might even help explain his desire for the Palantiri.

I agree that establishing the Angmar Kingdom was a way to secure himself from Sauron. The WK tried to expand Angmar to encompass all of Arnor - to have a strong army and to feel secure. Perhaps if he managed to conquer and keep Arnor, he might have attacked the Necromancer later, to destroy him or to drive him away.

Originally Posted by CAB

Also I would like to say that I believe that the Nazgul wouldn’t have stayed together while free from Sauron’s will. This would help explain why there seem to be no other Nazgul in Angmar, how Sauron was able to reacquire their rings, and strengthens the point that when the Nazgul came to Mordor as a group, they did so under Sauron’s control.

Why so? I understand that a ringless nazgul was a potential threat for his ring-bearing brethren, but for the ones with rings, it made sense to stick together and to remain under the protection of the Witch-King.

Or, are you suggesting that they disliked each other so much, that simply couldn't stay together by their own choice? (By the way, I would easily believe it, given the experience I got in our recent nazgul RPG! ).

Originally Posted by CAB

I admit that Minas Morgul taking no action against Gondor seems to be a weakness with my idea. However it seems just as strange that the Witch King, serving only himself, would remain neutral during Gondor’s vulnerable times unless his wars with Arnor were fought almost solely for the Palantiri.

I would say that, unlike Angmar, the strength of Minas Morgul (as a refuge against Sauron) was in its position almost in Gondor's territory. All the easy approaches from the South, North and West were guarded by Gondor. Only one way remained for Sauron, if he wished to attack Minas Morgul - via Mordor and Cirith Ungol Pass. Therefore if some Easterlings, allied with the Necromancer, finally destroyed Gondor, Minas Morgul would remain unprotected and become a next target. So the nazgul (if still free) had no reason to help the Balchoths and so on.

Originally Posted by CAB

Yet we both agree that he considered himself the rightful King of the Dunedain. (By the way, your example of him revealing his crown in Minas Tirith is better evidence than anything I thought of. Perhaps Sauron gave him this crown and promised him the same lordship he promised the Mouth to inspire him to fight well against Gondor, since his motivation was sometimes questionable.)

I believe so. Isengard was promised to the Mouth. It makes sense that Gondor was promised to the Morgul Lord. It is sensible to keep one's minions well motivated.

Originally Posted by CAB

Sauron may have wanted the pleasure of defeating Gondor himself and the attacks he inspired by the men from the East and South were merely meant to weaken, not end, Gondor. He may have even been angry with the Witch King for completely destroying Arnor.

The invasions were strong and almost succeeded. If not for Earnil. If not for the Rohirrim... I believe, they were made in earnest.

Originally Posted by CAB

(Also I am not sure what you mean by Sauron not visiting Minas Morgul. I agree that he probably didn't but if he already had all the Nazgul's rings why would he need to?)

Sauron had to flee from Dol-Guldur in haste in 2063 when Gandalf visited the place. I have got an impression (perhaps a wrong one) that this time he didn't evacuate the place, but left almost alone in a hurry.

Ever most vigilant was Mithrandir, and he it was that most doubted the darkness in Mirkwood, for though many deemed that it was wrought by the Ringwraiths, he feared that it was indeed the first shadow of Sauron returning; and he went to Dol Guldur, and the Sorcerer fled from him, and there was a watchful peace for a long while.- OF THE RINGS OF POWER AND THE THIRD AGE

So, if he had 9 faithful nazgul, guarding Mordor for him, wouldn't it be logical for Sauron to go there to spend time in their "warm company"? But he didn't. He went east instead.

Also, IF by 2063 he had already collected the 9 rings why didn't he return to Mordor immediately? Why wait a thousand more years? Why return to Dol Guldur? Did he really need the 3 dwarven rings so badly?
But if he had but a few nazgul rings, that makes sense that he waited to collect the Dwarven ones and to try and collect some of the Three (I believe that the attack on Celebrian at the Redhorn Pass was in fact a trap for Galadriel and her Ring.) just to grow strong enough to defeat the nazgul in Morgul.
Also, why in 2942 he returned to Mordor "in secret", if it was not being held against him? Nine years passed before he declared himself officially.

Therefore, CAB, your theory has some weaknesses, but so does mine. I enjoy our discussion very much.

Originally Posted by CAB

As for the Balrog suggestion, I think it is a bit unlikely (it seems you do also). You would think a Balrog flying (or maybe I should say traveling) around Middle Earth would attract a lot of attention. The timing is interesting though. Maybe Sauron was using his will to try to draw the fleeing Witch King to him and this woke the Balrog. Or better still, maybe after Sauron obtained the Witch King’s ring his strength grew to the point that the Balrog was disturbed from it’s sleep. As you say, Sauron’s growth may be directly attached to his ring gathering.

Or, IF the Witch-King came safely to Mordor, avoiding Sauron's traps, and gathered the other nazgul to him, Sauron should have understood that he really needed to collect more Rings to face them.
So he woke the poor Barlog up, and told him to get some dwarven rings and to guard Moria and the Redhorn Pass. Later that was the usual road between Imladris and Lorien that all the wielders of the Three took - for the gatherings of the White Counsil etc.

Originally Posted by CAB

I wanted to give my opinion concerning one other matter which was part of the earlier discussions; the extent of Sauron’s control of the Nazgul. I think a good comparison is the description of Saruman’s voice. When the voice of Saruman (or comparatively Sauron’s will) was directed at someone, that person found it very difficult to resist (in the case of Sauron/Nazgul probably all but impossible), but when the voice/will was turned elsewhere the person/Nazgul recovered some free will. In my opinion, Sauron couldn’t constantly be controlling the Nazgul this way. It is probable that exerting full control over even one Nazgul took a great deal of concentration. Sauron had other things to think about. I think most of the time Sauron controlled the Nazgul just as he controlled his other servants, primarily through fear.

I fully agree. As I said, if Sauron put on the Witch-King's ring and questioned him about the whereabouts of the Shire or about Frodo's progress towards Mordor, the nazgul would have been compelled to tell the truth. But as Sauron didn't suspect him, and had other things on his mind, he didn't ask. Another little mistake...

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Why so? I understand that a ringless nazgul was a potential threat for his ring-bearing brethren, but for the ones with rings, it made sense to stick together and to remain under the protection of the Witch-King.

Your absolutely right. It did make sense. Yet we know of only one Nazgul in Angmar and Sauron was able to recover all the Nazgul rings. This suggests they were each alone or at most in small groups. My thinking is that, since these men were powerful leaders while alive, once they gained their freedom they would prefer to be surrounded by followers or be alone rather than be in the company of eight other leaders.

Originally Posted by Gordis

I would say that, unlike Angmar, the strength of Minas Morgul (as a refuge against Sauron) was in its position almost in Gondor's territory. All the easy approaches from the South, North and West were guarded by Gondor. Only one way remained for Sauron, if he wished to attack Minas Morgul - via Mordor and Cirith Ungol Pass. Therefore if some Easterlings, allied with the Necromancer, finally destroyed Gondor, Minas Morgul would remain unprotected and become a next target. So the nazgul (if still free) had no reason to help the Balchoths and so on.

Good point. If the Witch King assumed Gondor wouldn’t attack him (and they never did) it may have been a safe place. Yet it is said that the Nazgul’s forces surrounded Minas Ithil from Mordor by the Cirith Ungol Pass (though I can’t imagine how). And again, Sauron did get the rings, and there is no known attack on Minas Morgul. This is why I prefer the idea of the Witch King (and other Nazgul) being captured while alone or with only a few followers present. We are much less likely to have heard about such ambushes than we are to hear about a battle at Minas Morgul.

Originally Posted by Gordis

The invasions were strong and almost succeeded. If not for Earnil. If not for the Rohirrim... I believe, they were made in earnest.

I think the invaders themselves fought in earnest but Sauron may have sent them thinking they would lose. I could definitely be wrong here. It was certainly a very close call.

Originally Posted by Gordis

So, if he had 9 faithful nazgul, guarding Mordor for him, wouldn't it be logical for Sauron to go there to spend time in their "warm company"? But he didn't. He went east instead.

Hmmm...No, I don’t have a good answer for that one. It does seem odd.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Why return to Dol Guldur? Did he really need the 3 dwarven rings so badly?

He needed the One Ring. I think he already knew the general location of where the Ring was lost and wanted to be nearby.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Also, why in 2942 he returned to Mordor "in secret", if it was not being held against him? Nine years passed before he declared himself officially.

It may be Sauron returned in secret for the reason you have said or it could be that he wanted to build up his forces and secure his home before declaring himself.

Originally Posted by Gordis

So he woke the poor Barlog up, and told him to get some dwarven rings and to guard Moria and the Redhorn Pass. Later that was the usual road between Imladris and Lorien that all the wielders of the Three took - for the gatherings of the White Counsil etc.

This is possible but very risky. Sauron wasn’t at full strength. If the Balrog was able to gain strength from the rings as you suggest Saruon can, it could be a great threat. And what if the Balrog got lucky and in it’s search for rings came across the One? Also, if Sauron was aware of and could influence the Balrog, why didn't he do so during the Second Age ring wars after Moria was shut against him?


You make many excellent points here as always Gordis. I agree that both of our theories have weaknesses. This is a difficult set of questions to answer.

[celeborn15]

what areas did each of the nine kings rule before they were enslaved?

[CAB]

Well, Gordis can give you a better answer than I can. However I don’t think all of them were kings. Three of them are supposed to be from Numenor. The Witch King is one of these and some theories have him as the King of Numenor but certainly the other two aren’t. At least one of the other six Nazgul is an Easterling. I can’t remember if Tolkien says where the others are from. There is very little information about the Nazgul’s origins. Maybe Gordis or someone else will be kind enough to give us the other details.

I see this is your first post here. I am quite new myself. Welcome to the Moot.

[celeborn15]

What power could sauron draw from the rings of the nine, what power did the nine have, aside from fear of them and their skill in battle?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

My thinking is that, since these men were powerful leaders while alive, once they gained their freedom they would prefer to be surrounded by followers or be alone rather than be in the company of eight other leaders.

I agree. I would also say that once they gained their freedom, they would prefer to dwell with their own people, so most probably the Easterlings went East, the Southrons went South and the Numenoreans sought either Black Numenoreans in Harad and Umbar (or further down the coast) or Dunedain in the North.

Originally Posted by CAB

If the Witch King assumed Gondor wouldn’t attack him (and they never did) it may have been a safe place.

Some people even went as far as to suppose the existence of a secret treaty between Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul, signed shortly after Earnur's disappearance. Minas Morgul promised not to cross the river and not to disclose the fate of the last King, permitting the Stewards to rule "until the King Returns". I heard that Gondor paid tribute in food and gold (and in fair maidens ).
But seriously, some sort of tacit peace agreement must have existed. As long as both sides kept to certain boundaries.

Originally Posted by CAB

Yet it is said that the Nazgul’s forces surrounded Minas Ithil from Mordor by the Cirith Ungol Pass (though I can’t imagine how).

I figure they sent troops down Gollum's stairs in secret and cut the defendants from the road to Osgiliath.

Originally Posted by CAB

We are much less likely to have heard about such ambushes than we are to hear about a battle at Minas Morgul.

I don't think that even if the Witch-King kept his Ring till 2942, there was an actual battle. More likely a direct confrontation of wills that the WK lost and had to surrender his ring Perhaps Sauron sneaked into Minas Morgul, helped by the ringless nazgul?.

He needed the One Ring. I think he already knew the general location of where the Ring was lost and wanted to be nearby.

Very likely, CAB.

This is possible but very risky. Sauron wasn’t at full strength. If the Balrog was able to gain strength from the rings as you suggest Saruon can, it could be a great threat. And what if the Balrog got lucky and in it’s search for rings came across the One?

Sure. But perhaps it was not an ambitious Barlog? Perhaps all he wanted was to be left alone to sleep in peace.

Many excellent points, CAB! Thank you.

[Gordis]

Welcome to Entmoot, Celeborn!

what areas did each of the nine kings rule before they were enslaved?

It is unknown for certain.
I think, CAB told you already all the known facts. The only named nazgul was Khamul, the Shadow of the East, Second to the Chief, Sauron's Lieutenant in Dol Guldur. He was an Easterling. The Witch-King and 2 others were Numenoreans. There are some speculations that Gothmog the Lieutenant of Morgul, might have been a nazgul as well, the Third. I have seen some speculations that likely three were Numenoreans, three were Easterlings and three were Southrons. But that is not backed by any quote.
CAB is right, not all of them were kings. Some were "sorcerers and warriors of old"

What power could sauron draw from the rings of the nine, what power did the nine have, aside from fear of them and their skill in battle?

I believe the nine rings were pretty powerful, if used properly. (And Sauron knew how to use them for sure). The Nine were not as powerful as the Three, but still no mere trinkets. Also, it seems probable that the power of the 9 rings wielded together was greater than the mere sum of their powers. That's why Sauron wanted to gather a complete set.

As for the power of the Nazgul that we see in LOTR, it was the power of RINGLESS nazgul. They inspired fear all by themselves. Also the sorcery that the Witch-King demonstrated at the Ford (breaking Frodo's sword at a distance) and in Minas Tirith (breaking the Gates), all this was done without a ring.

The Ringwraiths are deadly enemies, but they are only shadows yet of the power and terror they would possess if the Ruling Ring was on their master's hand again.'

I believe this passage implies, that if Sauron got the One back, he would give the Nine back to the nazgul.

What powers did the nazgul possess while still having their Rings? We are not told.

It is hinted that the Witch-King had been able to meddle with the weather, make snow and thaw at will.
But, more importantly, the Rings likely served as keys between the Seen and the Unseen, the World of Light and the World of Shadow. Most interestingly, there is so very little reports about nazgul during the Second Age. Only once they were seen, in SA 2251. And no reports till TA 1300. Nothing else. Why so? I suppose they could use their Rings to appear normal mortal men. This way they could pass unnoticed, even rule countries, without anyone guessing their identity. The Witch-King ruled Angmar for a long time, and no one knew who he was. Of course, it is only a speculation.

[celeborn15]

without rings and no black clokes and nothing on would the nazgul apear as ghotes, a mist or would they just be invisible?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by celeborn15

without rings and no black clokes and nothing on would the nazgul apear as ghotes, a mist or would they just be invisible?

Invisible.
And that one is canon (Unfinished Tales, the Hunt for the Ring)

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Gordis and CAB, my knowledge and insight of ME is dim in comparison to yours. I enjoy reading your guy's post and theories and I don't really have anything to add, but; I do have some questions you two might be able to answer for me.

The WK was intelligent and a great battle enginner. He had to have some inkling that Sauron would return and it would be better for the Nazgul to stick together rather than spead out. There isn't any info on where the other Nazgul were at that time right? Could he not have them close by(in disguise)and then pull them out when he had established his empire in the north? Maybe he(WK) didn't know when or how Sauron would return and that's why he picked Angmar. It was far enough away from Mordor and would give him time to make a plan if Sauron did come for him. I mean, if he sat the other's down and explained it to 'em they would get it, right?
I had a funny skit with how this convo might go with the Nazgul in party hats celebrating the Ring being lost in the Anduin, but I erased it.

[CAB]

I am flattered Faramir. I could say the same about Gordis’s knowledge being greater than mine.

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

The WK was intelligent and a great battle enginner. He had to have some inkling that Sauron would return and it would be better for the Nazgul to stick together rather than spead out. Could he not have them close by(in disguise)and then pull them out when he had established his empire in the north?

I mean, if he sat the other's down and explained it to 'em they would get it, right?

What you suggest is quite possible and may have actually happened. If Gordis’s theory concerning the Nazguls’ ability to appear as normal people is correct, they may have even followed this advice. I personally question this idea though. Could you tell us how you reached this conclusion concerning this ability of the (ringed) Nazgul Gordis? Is there more to it than the Nazguls’ seeming inactivity during the Second Age?


Personally I don’t think the Nazgul remaining together was very likely despite the advantages. Put yourself in their shoes. You are a mighty leader and have things your way most of your life, then you are turned into a wraith and are forced to work for someone else in the company of eight similarly unlucky individuals. When you become free would you prefer to remain with these reminders of your servitude and bitterness who were all used to having their own way, or to return to your home and try to recapture some of your old life and glory? All the Nazgul may have attempted to, or succeeded in, essentially retaking their old lordships. If they were in the East and South we wouldn’t expect to hear of these events. Of course they would be much more vulnerable to Sauron in these areas than the Witch King was in the West.

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

Maybe he(WK) didn't know when or how Sauron would return and that's why he picked Angmar. It was far enough away from Mordor and would give him time to make a plan if Sauron did come for him.

I think the Witch King came to Angmar to: secure himself from Sauron/anticipated captured Nazgul, gain a Palantir, and claim the Kingship of the Dunedain. The distance between Angmar and Mordor may have been a factor but Sauron had many servants in the East who he probably would have sent against the Witch King rather than sending an army from Mordor. Probably the Witch King chose Arnor as his target because of Gondor’s strength at that time.

The lord of that land (Angmar) was known as the Witch King, but it was not known until later that he was indeed the chief of the Ringwraiths, who came north with the purpose of destroying the Dunedain in Arnor, seeing hope in their disunion, while Gondor was strong.-APPENDIX A THE RETURN OF THE KING

Now that I think about it, the Witch King’s failure to capture a Palantir may have been his undoing. If he had been able to see the strength of the forces Gondor sent he might not have rashly charged against them.

As I see it, the Witch King’s story in the Third Age is rather tragic. All seemed to be going according to plan. He may have been sitting in the great chair in Fornost, wearing his crown, thinking “I have taken Arnor, soon it will be Gondor’s turn, then Sauron will be forced to serve the King of the Numenoreans once again.” In his overconfidence born of great success he lost his kingdom and security and fled east. Soon thereafter he was met by his old, now ringless, companions and his old chain.

[Gordis]

Thanks, Faramir and CAB.
I have only time now to post my prepared reply to Faramir.
I will answer to your post tommorrow, CAB, sorry!

Originally Posted by Faramir

The WK was intelligent and a great battle enginner. He had to have some inkling that Sauron would return and it would be better for the Nazgul to stick together rather than spead out. There isn't any info on where the other Nazgul were at that time right? Could he not have them close by(in disguise)and then pull them out when he had established his empire in the north? Maybe he(WK) didn't know when or how Sauron would return and that's why he picked Angmar. It was far enough away from Mordor and would give him time to make a plan if Sauron did come for him. I mean, if he sat the other's down and explained it to 'em they would get it, right?
I had a funny skit with how this convo might go with the Nazgul in party hats celebrating the Ring being lost in the Anduin, but I erased it.

Interesting question.
First of all we do know what happened to the nazgul after the War of the Last Alliance:

(Sauron) had been besieged in Mordor and all his forces had been destroyed. If any few had escaped, they had fled far to the East with the Ringwraiths. UT, disaster of the Gladden fields

So, all the nazgul went East.
Most likely, as CAB suggests, they immediately dispersed: they had no reason to stick together, when Sauron was no more. I think most of them, especially the Easterling, established kingdoms of their own in the East. The Southrons may have done the same in the South- anyway likely each one sought his own people. The Witch-King hardly wished to rule "barbarians', only Numenoreans were worthy. And he believed to be their only rightful King.

I think (although there is little prove of it) that during the first millennium of the Third Age, the Witch-King may have been in Harad and Umbar, among the Black Numenoreans there. They should have welcomed him warmly. We know that by TA 1000 Gondor reached the summit of its power. In 1050 Ciryaher/ Hyarmendacil "utterly defeated the Men of the Harad, and their kings were compelled to acknowledge the overlordship of Gondor"

I think, that was the time when the Witch-King decided to try his hand in the North, where Arnor was getting weaker and weaker. Probably, he went East first (1050-1300): to invite the other nazgul to follow him, but they refused. The others must have been happily ruling their own countries (may be even empires) in the East. They deemed themselves safe. Why would they abandon everything and come to start all anew with the Witch-King?

I am not sure when the Witch-King first learned about the resurrection of Sauron. Probably he understood who caused the Shadow in Mirkwood before the Wise, as he must have "felt" Sauron better. Also, the Wise first took Sauron for one of the nazgul, but the WK must have known where each of the other Eight were.

I think by 1300, when the WK came to Angmar, he had a very good idea who was hiding in Mirkwood. So he established his capital not in the hospitable lands of the upper Vales of Anduin (which were also part of Angmar), not near Mount Gundabad, the greatest orc stronghold of old, but in the wastes of the North, on the other side of the Misty Mountains.

Now probably, some of the other nazgul, if they lost their kingdoms or simply desired to see the WK, might have fallen prey to Sauron in Mirkwood, while travelling to Angmar. The others learned that the way was perilous, and stayed away.

[CAB]

Gordis I would agree with the likelihood of every point you make here but one. I don’t believe it was absolutely necessary for the Nazgul to be in the neighborhood of Dol Guldur to be captured. Certainly Sauron could travel. Probably no one would notice, or at least it wasn’t worth recording, if he vacated Dol Guldur for a month or two, especially in his weak condition at that time. My guess is that his spies found the Nazgul and when he believed the time right, Sauron with some of his servants (some or all of whom may have existed entirely in the “Unseen” world”) went and captured it’s ring. He probably did this with at least the first two Nazgul and then used them to capture the others. I think that the weaker Nazgul, those whose lordships were small or nonexistent, were his first targets. He then would have moved on to the stronger ones finishing of course with the Witch King.