Were the Nazgul free from Sauron for the most part of the Third Age?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

And yes, has anyone an idea how an invisible nazgul can make himself look normal. Seriously I mean. Is it possible if he has his ring? And if he hasn't?

Sorry for the long delay with the reply. Actually I was hoping that someone else will have an answer for you. I am not so sure of mine, you see.

I believe that the ring permitted to shift a person from one word into another - from seen into unseen and vice versa. So, IMHO, with the ring on his finger and an appropriate spell a nazgul can easily be seen and even pass for a mortal. Perhaps shifting into physical word they even regained normal human sight?

Now what happens to a nazgul without the ring? That is the situation we see in LOTR and the Hunt for the Ring. By default the ringwraiths lived in the spirit word. Without the ring they were unable to be seen “ unclad” i.e. without normal (physical) clothes, hoods and masks that they needed “to give shape to their nothingness”. But on the other hand, their bodies were physically existent in the physical world, though invisible. Otherwise how could they wear the clothes, wield weapons and ride horses? That is where I am confused. All this seems contradictory to me.
Actually I wonder: can one bump into an unclad and invisible nazgul or will one pass right through?

[Gordis]

Sorry,double posting has occured - I removed the copy

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by gordis

I believe that the ring permitted to shift a person from one word into another - from seen into unseen and vice versa. So, IMHO, with the ring on his finger and an appropriate spell a nazgul can easily be seen and even pass for a mortal. Perhaps shifting into physical word they even regained normal human sight?

It would eventually have you change from the physical world to the spirt world, but not back and forth. From what we can tell only the One had this power, it was not a power of all the Rings. Galadriel was visible in both worlds (because of her High elveness not her Ring). Elrond was visible only in world etc.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

It would eventually have you change from the physical world to the spirt world, but not back and forth.

I am not sure you are right, TD. Do you have any quote to back that up? I searched for one but failed.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

No, but to me it's logic. IMO it would be better to be living in the physical world, not spirtual world. They could do more phsical harm to their enemies, yet they were always Nazgûl, in the spiritulal world. I'll search for a quote, but I doubt there'll be anything. if there is it's most likely to be in the Letters.

[Gordis]

I think there is no quote, unless really something from the Letters or HOME 12 which I have not.

I agree that logically it is better for a nazgul to be in a physical word. But are you sure they could not remain in it while they had their rings? In SA we know practically nothing about their actions, as well as in TA till 1300. Perhaps they just blended into humankind? If you change your address say every 200 years, nobody will suspect you to be deathless, especially if you have a visible body.
And it is a fact that nobody suspected the King of Angmar to be a nazgul for a very long time. Perhaps only the fact that he lived and ruled far too long even for one of numenorean descent triggered some doubts.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by gordis

I think there is no quote, unless really something from the Letters or HOME 12 which I have not.

I agree that logically it is better for a nazgul to be in a physical word. But are you sure they could not remain in it while they had their rings? In SA we know practically nothing about their actions, as well as in TA till 1300. Perhaps they just blended into humankind? If you change your address say every 200 years, nobody will suspect you to be deathless, especially if you have a visible body.
And it is a fact that nobody suspected the King of Angmar to be a nazgul for a very long time. Perhaps only the fact that he lived and ruled far too long even for one of numenorean descent triggered some doubts.

well who would have thought that a ring wraith would become an Elven warrior? Even if he does like picking flowers?
Congratulations by the wey

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well when he was ruling Angmar it wasn't so much of a worry. They still needed rid of him and his kingdom.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

well who would have thought that a ring wraith would become an Elven warrior? Even if he does like picking flowers? Congratulations by the wey

Thank you. I confess I was NOT looking forward to become an ELVEN warrior. Why not just “Warrior”? Well, I hope I shall become an Elf Lord someday and then I shall get rid of this title as soon as possible. How do YOU feel about being an Elven Warrior, Butterbeer?
And don’t you know that ringwraiths love flowers? I mean beautiful luminous pale flowers from the Morgul Vale?

Originally Posted by Telcontar Dunadan

Well when he was ruling Angmar it wasn't so much of a worry. They still needed rid of him and his kingdom.

Well, wasn’t Rhudaur in alliance with Angmar? Would rhudaurians agree to that if they knew of the Witch-King’s identity?

[Butterbeer]

Gordis:

Thank you. I confess I was NOT looking forward to become an ELVEN warrior. Why not just “Warrior”? Well, I hope I shall become an Elf Lord someday and then I shall get rid of this title as soon as possible. How do YOU feel about being an Elven Warrior, Butterbeer?
And don’t you know that ringwraiths love flowers? I mean beautiful luminous pale flowers from the Morgul Vale?

well Elven warrior is a bit of a turn-up for a bumbling forgetful landlord type like Butterbeer for sure, but hey! the pay's good and the girls like the sword and tall tales of derring-do.

well, yeah luminous pale flowers from the Morgul Vales! for sure and maybe just a few snowdrops or daffodils in spring when none of the other Nazgul are watching eh?

legend has it that the secret gardens of Angmar were the wonder of the horticultural North: This is by way of being my take on the Nazgul being free from Sauron for the majority of the TA! i.e pretty much yes.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

well, yeah luminous pale flowers from the Morgul Vales! for sure and maybe just a few snowdrops or daffodils in spring when none of the other Nazgul are watching eh?

Please don't reveal my darkest secret! No man is no man...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by gordis

Well, wasn’t Rhudaur in alliance with Angmar? Would rhudaurians agree to that if they knew of the Witch-King’s identity?

What difference would it make to them? They were still fighting for an evil war lord. What difference does it make wether it is a wraith or a mortal man?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

What difference would it make to them? They were still fighting for an evil war lord. What difference does it make wether it is a wraith or a mortal man?

Rhudauriam hillmen were still men, barbarians may be, but men. And men are afraid of dwimmerlaiks
Then why do you think that Rhudaurians considered the Angmar King evil? To them he was perhaps quite nice. All is relative, you know. Of course, if you read Arthedain chronicles, you will learn that Angmar was an evil land with evil orcs and evil men (and also evil women and evil dogs and evil cats and evil horses and evil chickens)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yet men fought for Sauron at the end of the third age and the WK was leading the battle then.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Yet men fought for Sauron at the end of the third age and the WK was leading the battle then.

True. But the Easterlings had fought Gondor for ages and were grateful for any help. Still they would have been happier under a command of a mortal IMHO.
Rhudaurians would have allied themselves with Cardolan or with Arthedain if they knew the truth about the Angmar king.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by gordis

Rhudaurians would have allied themselves with Cardolan or with Arthedain if they knew the truth about the Angmar king.

what the secret truth? Did the Rhudaurians Hate Gardening and horticulture THAT much?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

what the secret truth? Did the Rhudaurians Hate Gardening and horticulture THAT much?

oh yes, nearly as much as elrond and glorfindel did

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by gordis

True. But the Easterlings had fought Gondor for ages and were grateful for any help. Still they would have been happier under a command of a mortal IMHO.
Rhudaurians would have allied themselves with Cardolan or with Arthedain if they knew the truth about the Angmar king.

And Rhudar and been fighting Arthedain for a while aswell. I'm sure they would have accepted any help to defeat Arthedain and claim the throne of Arnor.

[Gordis]

And what has happened to them? They were assimilated by Angmar in less than 100 years. The King lost his throne. Had he known who he was dealing with, The King of Rhudaur would have been able to forsee his fate and would not agree to the alliance.
As for horticulture, there may be more to it than just fun . I have to think on it.

[Rían]

Interesting thread