No technology in Middle Earth?

[Telcontar]

Just an observation from an outside view:

Seeing that humans have evolved for around 10,000 years, where the real advancement has happened in the last 1000 years, I was wondering why the peoples of Middle Earth didn't ever become technologically advanced? At least into some kind of industrialist sort of way.

I know that it's a fantasy world that doesn't go beyond a medieval type of period, but you would think that after thousands of years (through 4 ages) they would've become somewhat industrious, as far as like how the turn of the 1900's was for us.

Does this make sense? In the last 100 years we as a race have advanced at an exponential rate (technologically, politically, etc). But in M.E., even though there have been four ages that have spanned a couple of thousand years, they didn't ever advance beyond swords and arrows.

Maybe I'm just a nut, but something I was thinking about. Maybe Tolkien didn't think about this? Or maybe the advancement starts at the beginning of the fifth age?



No, I'm not high so don't ask!

[Wayfarer]

The orcs had explosives, gandalf made fireworks, the numenoreans at one time had steamships... There was technology.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
The orcs had explosives, gandalf made fireworks, the numenoreans at one time had steamships... There was technology.

Wayfarer... I'm not aware of the Numenoreans having steamships. Where do you get this from?

I generally think of Numenorean culture as reaching something more or less equivalent to the European Renaissance period. When they sailed to Middle Earth, I imagine the cultures they encountered as being basically like bronze age or even stone age... maybe early iron age.

(EDIT: However, I also expect the Numenoreans who escaped to Middle Earth may have regressed technologically. They brought much with them, but much of what was known and done on Numenor could also have been lost)

[Telcontar]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
The orcs had explosives, gandalf made fireworks, the numenoreans at one time had steamships... There was technology.

Uh...I think the explosives were from the movie, I don't remember that in the books at least off the top of my head right now. Gandalf is a magician, he can make fireworks come out of his arse if he wanted to. I don't remember steamships either. Steamships generally don't have sails. In ROTK (book), it describes how Eomer was worried/troubled when he saw the Ships of the Corsairs come up the shore, identified by their black sails. When really it was Aragorn with Gimli and Legolas and the Dunedain with the ghosts from the paths of the dead rowing the ship.

Besides all that, this is NOT technology. Technology is like Thomas Edison, electricity, etc. And also more of an industrialist way, Eli Whitney (cotton gin), etc.

Originally posted by Valandil
However, I also expect the Numenoreans who escaped to Middle Earth may have regressed technologically. They brought much with them, but much of what was known and done on Numenor could also have been lost)

Granted they fled Numenor, they were on M.E. for a couple thousand years, at least they would've advanced somewhat like I've said, or recreated(?) their advancements. Like I said, they were in a time where as humans were, in a Medieval early Renaissance period. 700 years later they could've at least come to a period similar to the Civil War era of advancement, i.e. - muskets, beginning of industrialism, etc. All hypothetically speaking of course.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Telcontar

Granted they fled Numenor, they were on M.E. for a couple thousand years, at least they would've advanced somewhat like I've said, or recreated(?) their advancements. Like I said, they were in a time where as humans were, in a Medieval early Renaissance period. 700 years later they could've at least come to a period similar to the Civil War era of advancement, i.e. - muskets, beginning of industrialism, etc. All hypothetically speaking of course.

Unless they continued to regress... remember, in the Third Age, the Dunedain were in decline. What they had achieved in the past was slipping away. Remember also that in our own western culture there was decline after the Classical Age, into the Middle Ages, in some respects. That was reclaimed by the Renaissance.

Note all the references to how they no longer had the 'secrets' or abilities they had before.

Saruman in the book had explosives... that WAS how he breached Helm's Deep

[The Gaffer]

Tolkien had a completely different idea of "technology" from how we think of it. When you think of the Argonath, the Stone of Erech or Orthanc, clearly there was something "magical" about the technology the Numenoreans used. Presumably this power is supposed to represent their closeness to the Undying Lands, a reward for their suffering against Morgoth. IMO, the "regression" symbolises their falling from grace after the Downfall.

More conventional technology is mostly portrayed as a corrupting and evil force: Saruman and Sandyman spring to mind. Technology being used to dominate nature rather than to nurture it.

The Dwarves are interesting from this point of view: again, their technology seemed to be regressing rather than progressing.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Telcontar
Just an observation from an outside view:

Seeing that humans have evolved for around 10,000 years, where the real advancement has happened in the last 1000 years, I was wondering why the peoples of Middle Earth didn't ever become technologically advanced? At least into some kind of industrialist sort of way.

I think it may be due to the fact that the Elves, who were the teachers of Men in Middle-Earth up to the Third Age, were always thinking of preserving things as they were. Nature and the inherent qualities of all things should be preserved. But more important, technology, machines and industry seem to be associated with evil in Tolkien's world, especially when the nature is exploited in the process. Just think of Saruman, who "has a mind for metal and wheels, and does not care for growing things", as Treebeard put it. And what Saruman did with the Shire, cutting down the trees and turning the old mill into a polluting plant.

Edit: Cross post with Gaffer.

[Imric]

How did Aragorn refer to the rather ambiguous means by which the orcs breached the walls of Helm's Deep? The ''Fire of Orthanc' and ''devilry of Saruman'' were the terms he used, I think.. The circumstances certainly seem to imply some form of explosive was used, which I don't find unreasonable (since black powder was introduced to medieval Europe in the 13th century), but really, can we completely rule out a ''magical'' explanation? Do we have enough information to definitively state how the walls of Helm's Deep were breached? I'm not certain that we do.

[Telcontar]

Originally posted by Artanis
I think it may be due to the fact that the Elves, who were the teachers of Men in Middle-Earth up to the Third Age, were always thinking of preserving things as they were. Nature and the inherent qualities of all things should be preserved. But more important, technology, machines and industry seem to be associated with evil in Tolkien's world, especially when the nature is exploited in the process. Just think of Saruman, who "has a mind for metal and wheels, and does not care for growing things", as Treebeard put it. And what Saruman did with the Shire, cutting down the trees and turning the old mill into a polluting plant.

Interesting point of view. Then I guess the Elves were hippies?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Telcontar
Interesting point of view. Then I guess the Elves were hippies?

Hehe - they were artistic, and subcreative, and loved nature.

[Attalus]

Not only gunpowder is explosive. "Greek fire," an early form of napalm, was used in the seventh century, A.D. by the Byzantines. The exact words are "blasting fire" and that description certainly meets Greek fire's decription.

[Lefty Scaevola]

The reason there was little mechanical, industrial, chemical, etc tecnology in Middle Earth, except fo distasteful stuff by some bad guys, was that Yolkien was a bit of a luddite, yearning for for a simpler agricultural life like that of the shire.

[Aden]

Industry is assosiated with evil in Tolkien's world and maybe this fact indicates that he didn't like the results of the industrial evolution in our world. Maybe he thought that it would spoil his world or that it could possibly make it look similar to our world. Or he percieved technological evolution in a completely different way than we do.

[Attalus]

The Elves evolved what the Hobbits (and we) call "Magic" to make their lives easier and more graceful. After all, when you are virtually immortal, time-saving devices are superfluous. There is a long section in the Letters devoted to the difference between this magic and what JRRT called "the laborious devices of the mere scientific magician." He regarded most technology with deep suspicion, especially if it intruded on Nature.

[Wayfarer]

Well, let me try and make a few comments, despite the fact that reading this thread nearly put me to sleep.

First: The orcs are described even as early as the publication of the hobbit as having a keen interest in technology- especially those that are technically referred to as 'things that go boom'. The orcs at the battle of helms deep were no doubt augmented by Saruman's machinations, but the bent for that sort of things was already clearly evident.

Secondly: There is a /clear/ distinction between the kinds of 'magic' that Gandalf performed (striking something with his staff and igniting it) and the fireworks display he puts on in which he passes out to children various fireworks similar to what we would use today.

Thirdly: Yes, at one time in the legendarium the numenoreans had ships of steel (or mithril alloys) that were self-propelled without the need for sails- whether they were steamships or something else.

Besides all that, this is NOT technology. Technology is like Thomas Edison, electricity, etc. And also more of an industrialist way, Eli Whitney (cotton gin), etc.

I hate having to deal with foolish people. That /is/ technology. Technology is any application of science, which in Middle Earth would even include magic, and would certainly include such things as forgework and architecture.

The dwarves are repeatedly evidenced as having a highly industrial society, and, if you will only look at the text, manage to produce some very impressive achievements. (Thorin's company sealing the gates of the mountain in only a few days, and yet planning ahead and providing a method with which it could be quickly opened; the seemingly mechanical wind-up toys given out at Bilbo's birthday party; the exquisite lamps, forgework, and mining they did)

Sauron and Saruman both used large devices and seem to have been very industrial- Saruman's machines were hot and spit fire, while many of the things noted in mordor could have easily been the result of industrial activity.

The Elves evolved what the Hobbits (and we) call "Magic" to make their lives easier and more graceful. After all, when you are virtually immortal, time-saving devices are superfluous.

Another foolish comment. Elves did not 'evolve' magic- they were created with it. They had those abilities from the first generation, and they instinctively made use of them, although gradually some of them became more practiced than others.

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
I hate having to deal with foolish people.

Are you for real? Or are you just pretending to be a complete twat?

[Anglorfin]

As for not having "industrial technology" advance far in the ages that Middle Earth covers, all the ideas here are good ones that make a lot of sense. Especially when you look at it in within a longer time frame. The start of the Fourth Age was the decline of the Elves and the begin of the dominion of Men. As the Elves left, their technological powers eventually began to fade from knowledge in ME and Men, whose life spans are considerably shorter, sought to make things easier/spectacular/better in the only way that they could; through industrial technology. So I'd say that it wasn't until afterwards that the rise of what we consider to be our technology would have started in Middle Earth.

[Wayfarer]

No more than you are, Gaffer.

I will say that I was posting last night after having barely any sleep, and was cranky (normally I'm just sardonic). But I /still/, after sleeping it off, find the assertion that things like gunpowder and the like is not technology, to be a foolish opinion. The people of middle earth were very advanced at what they did- probably better than modern people, in fact.

It is a matter of historical records that at least some technological advances (such as the composition of greek fire, or the superior techniques used by the smiths of toledo) have been lost over time. I doubt anybody today could create a Silmaril, for example. That art was a form of technology, it is simply something beyond our reach.

[Telcontar]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Are you for real? Or are you just pretending to be a complete twat?

Well excuse us for dealing with the almighty, eh Gaffer? I guess we were talking to Tolkien himself. Nah, it was just a pompous twat.

Anyway, he missed my point that even though they had some advances in mining/metallurgy, they never really advanced upon that. The peoples of M.E. used these techniques for thousands of years, versus humanity being able to accomplish unimaginable feats in under 1000 years. In short, if we were able to advance to a level where we are at now, how come the peoples of M.E. couldn't do the same? I know it's a fantasy world, but I'm just bringing up a hypothetical point.

I like the ideas a few of you have brought up about the elves and Tolkien trying to keep the world simple and true to nature. That makes a whole lot of sense and I think that's probably the best answer we are going to get out of this.

One last thing, I'm not into the whole "flaming" thing. But if someone flames me without a reason, I think one good turn deserves another. Don't worry, even though someone will probably stoop to try to continue a flame, I'll just ignore it. Just had to get my two cents in. This whole board is to discuss/debate topics. Certainly not to ridicule someone.

[Wayfarer]

Nobody's been flamed yet, Telcontar.

What I was calling was foolish is this: You ask why the people of Middle Earth don't have technology, and when you are briefly pointed to a few examples or possible examples you claim 'that's not technology'. That's just silly.

Something else of note is that the peoples of Middle Earth did develop, during certain periods, at an extremely rapid pace. The elves developed an extremely sophisticated language in a rather short time after awakening, they advanced by leaps and bounds during their time in Valinor, and in one of the more interesting instances the Noldor converted a large part of their society (which up until then had been completely civilian) for warfare in a matter of a few years.

In fact, all the races seem to have developed at an incredible pace during the height of their most advanced cultures. The Eldar, the Numenoreans, the Dwarf-Kingdoms. The fact that their development didn't paralell that of America and western Europe doesn't mean they didn't have technology- they simply had different technolgy, which they used for different reasons.

Remember that for a long time in Europe guns were not used because bows were still superior- what would have happened if those archers had been 'able to hit a birds eye in the dark', with bows of fantastic strength and arrows of incredible sharpness? Nobody would have bothered with guns at all- except, perhaps, the orcs (who we are led to believe do so). And that is coupled, in middle earth, with armor-smithing by the dwarves and elves that is superior to anything that existed in europe at the time guns came into use- some equipment, like Bilbo's mithril coat, would have easily resisted musket-balls or any other primitive form of bullet.

Something else to consider is exactly /what/ the technology in question was needed to do. Guns, for example, would have never been developed by men or elves because by and large they did not worry about warfare very much, except when the Dark Lords brought it to them. Contrast this to Europe where large groups of humans fought among themselves on a regular basis.

*Actually, there is one group (aside from orcs) I can think of that made warfare on others. The numenoreans conquered a good deal of Middle Earth, and they do seem to have advanced very quickly in that department- at least at one time tolkien had conceived them as having ironclad ships that ran without wind.

Again, I repeat that what the people of Middle Earth did do, they did with bewildering results- The Palantirs were at least as good as our long range communications devices, and I believe they were probably much better. The Swan-Ships of Aqualonde, the fantastic architecture of the Dwarves and the Numenoreans, the numerous and incredible accomplishments of the Elves. I am of the opinion that the peoples of middle earth were at various times more advanced than modern man. The simply did different things. And that makes sense to me- why, after all, should they have needed to advance in the same direction that we have, when they were possessed of such different interests and abilities?

Of course, this is all just rationalization, and the fact is that the reason there wasn't technology is that Tolkien wanted to write Fantasy Mythology, not steam-punk.