Swords in the Troll's Cave

[Findegil]

You are right Lefty, but the suspicious of Gandaf and/or Elrond how these Trolls got the swords is a strong evidenc against any Troll in the battle of Gondolin and it is clearly a reference even from what Michael Martinez calls "core cannon".

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maedhros]

Findegil, I think you made a very good point in your description of the various dragons/monsters in the Mechanical Monsters in the Barrows. Could you be so kind as to post the various types of monsters in this thread for clarity.
As we have discussed already, and while in the later mythology there seems to be no mention of Mechanical monsters, it is entirely possible that one would need such monsters for the attack of a city as well guarded and in the special position that Gondolin was. A special city requires especial means of attack.
The basic problem that i see with the Tale is the number of Balrogs involved in the attack, not the mechanical monsters.

[Artanis]

Canon. It doesn't tell me much since everyone seem to have their own canon. Lefty, what do you include in Published Canon, and Findegil, what is included in MM's core canon?

[Fat middle]

Canon! I hate that word when referring to Tolkien's works. It reminds me of the, often absurd, discussions at the Jedi Council about the Star Wars canot.

And now, about the topic: Remember that Glamdring was owned by Turgon himself. I don't think any elf that would have found the sword would have use it, save one who could claim inherintance from him.

But I agree with Wayfarer that no orc would have treasure those elvish swords.

The only answer I find for the enigma are the dragons. How many dragons were there at the battle of Gondolin? Did any of them lived later in "the mountains of the North" mentioned by Elrond?

[Haradrim]

I think probably what happened was that several elves came back to the battle site. They probably searched the dead to see if anyone was still alive or tosearch for anythin gof value. THey found the swords and took them . Eventually they were passed from elf to elf. Maybe at one point while an elf was roaming outside of rivendell The three trollsd pounced. COnsidering that there was an elf with a sword like those there probably was a fourth troll. The remaining three kill the elf take the swords, not caring if they used to kill orcs cuz theua re goblins and then they put it in their cave and then our little group of adventurers comes along.

[Radagast The Brown]

Why would elves look in the bodies of their dead, For profit? I think they'd burry them, with the sword - like Thorin. Also, I don't think they had time to search for other Elves - as they were running away of Morgoth's forces, and probably didn't have much time.

And, I can't see how an Elf could get back to Gondolin after it was ruined, since not many knew the way, and Morgoth ruled those lands.

[Haradrim]

Well maybe an orc went back after the fall of GOndolin after which he was kiled by a troll while traveling. That troll may have been killed by an elf. the elf recovered the weapons and on his way back to Rivendell our favorite trolls attacked him and took the swords. The swords being to small for them put them on display in their caves until our heroes came along and took them.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Haradrim

Well maybe an orc went back after the fall of GOndolin after which he was kiled by a troll while traveling. That troll may have been killed by an elf. the elf recovered the weapons and on his way back to Rivendell our favorite trolls attacked him and took the swords. The swords being to small for them put them on display in their caves until our heroes came along and took them.

It seems quite comlicated to me, and without any need - what about the Elves just taking the swords while running away, and being attacked by trolls, somewhere? Or the trolls taking the swords themselves from Gondolin?

[Findegil]

Posted by Artanis:

Findegil, what is included in MM's core canon?

The last editions of every Book of JRR Tolkien about Middle-Earth published during JRR Tolkiens livetime.
I will not relock the edition numbers but basicly that means:
The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, The Adventures of Tom Bombadil and The Road Goes ever On

Posted by Maedhros:

Findegil, I think you made a very good point in your description of the various dragons/monsters in the Mechanical Monsters in the Barrows. Could you be so kind as to post the various types of monsters in this thread for clarity.

Since our discussion in Downs had gone beyond my original post, I can't simply copy it to this board. I will see if I can rework it, too make it understandable with out the discussion preciding it in the Downs and taking up the recend developments in the further discussion.

Posted by Wayfarer:

I can't imagine any Orcs being willing to steal a pair of swords the mere sight of which, three ages later, sends them into a panic.

Did they panic, when Orcrist was shown to the great Orc? I don't think so. Thes did pnaic when Glamding and later Orcrist was used against them.
And for what propose had the Orcs in The Hobbit brought the sword into the cave if not for use or hord as a booty?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I'm guessing the swords were already there as the trolls mention they had only moved down from the mountain 2 weeks before so maybe it was an elvish storage place that had been forgottan about or deserted.

[Valandil]

Since it was around 6500 years between the sack of Gondolin and the discovery of these swords in the trolls' lair, and because they were recognized by the orcs (perhaps used against them in the War of the Orcs and Dwarves?), I suspect the swords shared quite a history - and probably changed hands many times.

Here's a wild one for you though: Arador, grandfather of Aragorn, was taken by trolls and killed just 11 years before Gandalf, Bilbo, Thorin & Co. had their own troll encounter in the same general area. Could these three trolls have been the trolls who killed Arador?

They sure seem kind of bumbling to pull it off - but Tolkien was using a different style when he wrote The Hobbit. And Arador obviously didn't have Gandalf along.

Could Arador and possible companions have recently "come into" the swords of Gondolin? And had THEY used them on local orcs?

Curiouser, perhaps, is why one of two such treasures would be laid to rest with Thorin - who had only carried it briefly - and though he was the direct heir of Durin's line - was he really important enough to bury that sword with?

[Rían]

Good theory about Arador and the swords, Valandil! So many fun things to speculate about ...

I always wondered what Elrond thought when he recognized his great-grandfather's sword ... he seemed rather matter-of-fact about it. I would think he would have been more touched by the sorrow of the memory of the Fall of Gondolin.

I wondered about Thorin being buried with the sword, too, but I guess it was "finders, keepers", and he DID find it.

[Valandil]

*bumping* this for a few reasons:

1. To help spur more discussion in the Hobbit forum.

2. To encourage others to look for interesting older threads to revive.

3. Because our "unofficial discussion project" is a bit stalled - and this topic fits right into about where we are.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Valandil
Could Arador and possible companions have recently "come into" the swords of Gondolin? And had THEY used them on local orcs?

Curiouser, perhaps, is why one of two such treasures would be laid to rest with Thorin - who had only carried it briefly - and though he was the direct heir of Durin's line - was he really important enough to bury that sword with?

Maybe the swords were carried by the Gondolin survivors, in the Sirion. From here you can just guess what happened to them until they got to the trolls - maybe the trolls attacked them. Which sounds likely.
About Arador... The only question is, why would he carry the Gpondolin swords, but it sounds logical, that he had them.

I think it was buried with Thorin because it was his sword, and its history doesn't matter. It is considered his sword like Glamdring considered Gandalf's sword.

[Roland]

As I am sure you will recall, the sword taken from the Troll's cave had belonged to heroes. At any rate they were quite famous. Heroes, or those who wield famous swords are unlikely to be killed in a single battle. They probably escaped and were kill afterwards by marauding orks, from whom the trolls stole them.

[Findegil]

Of Gandalfs sword Glamdring it was told by Elrond in the Hobbit that it was the sword of the king of Gondolin. Gondolin had have only one king and that was Turgon. His death in the Battle that brought his city to ruin is attested, what ever version of the story you look at.
Turgon did in the end refuse to fight and died in the Fall of his tower standing un the top of it when it was crushed. But nither for Glamdring nor for Orcrist or Stich we have any text that suggests that they were take out of Gondolin by the Elves. At the conteray we have Elronds saying in the Hobbit:"... They must have come from a dragon's hoard or goblin plunder, for dragons and goblins destroyed that city many ages ago. ..."

Respectfully
Findegil

[me9996]

Now you know what I'm going to say so... I'm not!

[Mouth of the Dark Lord]

Originally Posted by Athelwinde

In the chapter called "Roast Mutton", the Dwarves and Bilbo and Gandalf go to the trolls cave and find some very ancient and interesting swords.

My question for discussion is
1. How did the trolls, of all people, get a hold of these swords from Gondolin, especially since the land of Beleriand was sunk?

The trolls probably just slaughtered the swords' wielders, being heroes, or descendants of the heroes, or whatever and kept the loot from their bodies.

[Gordis]

Sorry it is off-topic, but it is really curious how 2 swords (or a sword and a dagger) from Gondolin could have ended in a troll den in Rhudaur... Perhaps a high elf was killed there during the Angmar wars?

[Landroval]

- I could not say, said Elrond, but one may guess that your trolls had plundered other plunderers, or come on the remnants of old robberies in some hold in the mountains of the North. I have heard that there are still forgotten treasures of old to be found in the deserted caverns of the mines of Moria, since the dwarf and goblin war.

From A short rest, The hobbit.