Gildor Inglorion

[Curufin]

Continuing this from a thread where we got rather off topic...

Gordis says: Gildor is actually the reason why I sort of dislike all Elves. I hated Gildor on my first LOTR reading and still dislike him (though now I understand his reasons better). After reading Silm, I have mellowed towards Elves in general, but there are some LOTR ones that I still can't stand.

Why? I think the moment they met Gildor was the point that I started becoming interested in LotR. He's always held a special place in my heart.

[Earniel]

There are worse Elves than Gildor, I think. Although his counsel wasn't exactly very helpful at times, the guy meant well.

[Curufin]

See, I was madly in love with him for a long time. I really like the guy. He's just...the epitome of what an Elf should be.

[Gordis]

Gildor and his company of HIGH ELVES (who live and have great power in both the Seen and the Unseen Words, who can openly fight nazgul) could have escorted the hobbits to Rivendell safely. It is like a whole company of Glorfindels. Gildor knew it, but still he sent the hobbits on their way alone and returned to his singing under the stars (quite an important business as compared to lowly mortal matters).

What was it he said?

The Elves have their own labours and their own sorrows, and they are little concerned in the ways of Hobbits, or of any other creatures on earth.

Yea, right. And with that Gildor let 3 frightened little hobbits make their way to Rivendell alone - pursued by the Nazgul.
And what would have happened if Glorfindel the Elf shared this attitude?

Now compare it with the words of Barliman, the funny, fat, forgetful innkeeper:

They come from Mordor,' said Strider in a low voice. 'From Mordor, Barliman, if that means anything to you.'
'Save us!' cried Mr. Butterbur turning pale; the name evidently was known to him. 'That is the worst news that has come to Bree in my time.' 'It is,' said Frodo. 'Are you still willing to help me?' 'I am,' said Mr. Butterbur. 'More than ever. Though I don't know what the likes of me can do against, against———' he faltered.
'Against the Shadow in the East,' said Strider quietly. 'Not much, Barliman, but every little helps.

Of course, unlike Butterbur, Gildor had a fair face and golden hair and was so “shiny” and mysterious all through – so some readers are willing to pardon him anything and love him nonetheless.

[Earniel]

The question remains if Butterbur's would have still been that helpfull if it had meant going along and protect the Hobbits, instead of just getting them a pack-horse... I'm guessing not.

The Hobbits didn't look that frightened either at the time with the meeting with Gildor, this was early enough in the adventure. At the time the Hobbits didn't need protection yet, and stealth might have gotten them further instead of being escorted by a whole squard of singing Elves.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

The question remains if Butterbur's would have still been that helpfull if it had meant going along and protect the Hobbits, instead of just getting them a pack-horse... I'm guessing not.

That was not the point I was making. Sure, Butterbur wouldn't have been of much help on the road, but he was willing to help to the best of his powers. Gildor was not.

Getting them a pack horse and especially keeping his mouth shut (the latter must have been hard) was all Barley was realistically capable of. And it might have turned to be quite dangerous - don't forget that the very angry Witch King and 6 nazgul passed through Bree the very next night, abandoning all secrecy, throwing down the gates. If the WK only stopped for a moment to search the Pony, it would have turned quite ill for Barley.

The Hobbits didn't look that frightened either at the time with the meeting with Gildor, this was early enough in the adventure. At the time the Hobbits didn't need protection yet, and stealth might have gotten them further instead of being escorted by a whole squard of singing Elves.

Come on, the fact that the hobbits were not too frightened only meant that they were too ignorant to be frightened enough. Thus, ignorant and naive, they needed protection even more.
A whole squard of singing HIGH Elves would have been a perfect protection from the nazgul. And Gildor did send a messenger to Rivendell to warn Elrond, who arrived nine days before the hobbits. Now why couldn't Gildor et al go with them?

'Then Gandalf has reached Rivendell?' cried Frodo joyfully.
'No. He had not when I departed; but that was nine days ago,' answered Glorfindel. 'Elrond received news that troubled him. Some of my kindred, journeying in your land beyond the Baranduin, learned that things were amiss, and sent messages as swiftly as they could. They said that the Nine were abroad, and that you were astray bearing a great burden without guidance, for Gandalf had not returned. There are few even in Rivendell that can ride openly against the Nine; but such as there were, Elrond sent out north, west, and south.-Flight to the Ford

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

That was not the point I was making. Sure, Butterbur wouldn't have been of much help on the road, but he was willing to help to the best of his powers. Gildor was not.

And who says Gildor did not do what he thought best? What if giving the Hobbits a Elven squad of protectors did more bad than good? The nazgul would know something was up for sure then, and the group'd be easier to track. Besides, what if Gildor feared the influence of the Ring? He and his people were remants of the Noldor, who do not have the best of track records on controling their ambition.

Come on, the fact that the hobbits were not too frightened only meant that they were too ignorant to be frightened enough. Thus, ignorant and naive, they needed protection even more.

Hmm, they seemed to have been smart enough to understand that running into the black riders was not in their best interest. I think they did far better without Elves on their journey to the Prancing Pony than with them.

[Jon S.]

>> The Elves have their own labours and their own sorrows, and they are little concerned in the ways of Hobbits, or of any other creatures on earth.

If nothing else, this expression of isolationism is certainly common in "regular earth," too.

Though I do agree with Earniel as well: it is perilous to judge on the basis of snippets of 3rd-hand conversations. This doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't try, only that we proceed humbly.

[CAB]

I think Gildor's inactions are pretty much indefensible. He knew that Frodo was carrying a "great burden without guidance". He knew that Frodo was being pursued by Sauron's greatest servants. He knew that Gandalf didn't show up when expected. In short, he knew that something very important was happening, that Frodo was in the middle of it, and that he was in deep trouble. The speed with which Gildor's messenger reached Rivendell is evidence of Gildor's knowledge, I think.

I used to believe that Gildor's inaction was due purely to apathy (see the quote Gordis gave), but I wonder now what role fear played. I don't mean fear of the Nazgul as much as fear of "meddling in the affairs of wizards" and mostly fear (or at least reluctance) of doing something.

In this meeting there may be more than chance; but the purpose is not clear to me, and I fear to say too much."
Gildor to Frodo

This seems to be a common weakness among Elves. Often they must be greatly pressed before they take action. I would say this is a rather poor way to live for humans, but maybe it makes sense for immortals. This hesitance of Elves to act probably also helps explain why Men are more adaptable and, in the end, are a more "successful" race.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

And who says Gildor did not do what he thought best? What if giving the Hobbits a Elven squad of protectors did more bad than good? The nazgul would know something was up for sure then, and the group'd be easier to track.

I don't think this fits with the advice Gildor gave Frodo.

"I also advise this: do not go alone. Take such friends as are trusty and willing."
Gildor to Frodo

I think we can agree that the importance of stealth is a given, still it is the need for companionship and aid that Gildor mentions. But really, I can't imagine how the hobbits would have been better off alone at this point than with Gildor's people. I also don't see the hobbits secrecy being hurt by the Elves' presence either, at least if they could stop singing for a while.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Besides, what if Gildor feared the influence of the Ring? He and his people were remants of the Noldor, who do not have the best of track records on controling their ambition.

Gildor didn't know that Frodo had the Ring, only an unnamed "great burden".

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I think they did far better without Elves on their journey to the Prancing Pony than with them.

They just barely made it to Buckland and had to be rescued by Bombadil twice while alone vs seeing a Nazgul run away when the Elves came near. I think they were unquestionably better off in the Elves company.

[Gordis]

I agree with CAB on all points. (Hi, CAB )

Originally Posted by Eärniel

And who says Gildor did not do what he thought best? What if giving the Hobbits a Elven squad of protectors did more bad than good? The nazgul would know something was up for sure then, and the group'd be easier to track.

The nazgul have already spotted the hobbits, were hunting them. It was a good enough indication that something was up. Not a single nazgul had been seen in the North for the last 1000 years and it was clear that this time the Nine were hardly on vacation, but instead wanted this "burden" Frodo carried.

Besides, what if Gildor feared the influence of the Ring? He and his people were remants of the Noldor, who do not have the best of track records on controling their ambition.

This doen't match Gildor's words and actions. Those who spend their time gazing West into the palantir and singing hymns to Elbereth are hardly ambitious. They are half-gone already in minds, maybe fading in bodies.
Noldor used to be ambitious in the First Age, but not anymore (even Galadriel, the most ambitious one). I don't think they would be in danger simply escorting the Ring. And Men did have even worse track record on controlling their ambition, but that didn't prevent Aragorn from escorting the hobbits almost all the way.

I think they did far better without Elves on their journey to the Prancing Pony than with them.

Apart from what CAB has already said, I will quote "the Hunt for the Ring" in RC, showing that nothing but pure luck and the nazgul's mistakes saved the hobbits on their way to Buckland and that they would have been much better off with the Elves.

After dark, becoming acutely aware of the Ring, Khamul goes in pursuit; but is daunted by the sudden appearance of the Elves and the song of Elbereth. While Frodo is surrounded by the Elves he cannot perceive the Ring clearly.RC p.91

As soon as the Elves depart Khamul renews his hunt, and reaching the ridge above Woodhall is aware that the Ring has been there. Failing to find the Bearer and feeling that he is drawing away, he summons his companion by cries. He is aware of the general direction that the Ring has taken, but not knowing of Frodo's rest in the wood, and believing him to have made straight eastwards, he and his companion ride over the fields. They visit Maggot while Frodo is still under the trees. Khamul then makes a mistake (probably because he imagines the Ringbearer as some mighty man, strong and swift): he does not look near the farm, but sends his companion down Causeway towards Overbourn, while he goes north along it towards the Bridge. They tryst to return and meet one another at night; but do so just too late. Frodo crosses by ferry just before Khamul arrives. His companion joins him soon after. Khamul is now well aware that the Ring has crossed the river; but the river is a barrier to his sense of its movement. RC p. 116

Originally Posted by Jon S.

If nothing else, this expression of isolationism is certainly common in "regular earth," too.

Though I do agree with Earniel as well: it is perilous to judge on the basis of snippets of 3rd-hand conversations. This doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't try, only that we proceed humbly.

I am judging on the basis of his actions that match his words only too well.
As for "regular earth," imagine a large group of hikers meeting three lost children in the woods far from any civilization. The boys say that they have lost their dad and are being pursued by mounted killers. Now the hikers give them something to eat and abandon them, not wishing to burden themselves with the other's problems or to change the own route.
How would you judge the hikers? Probably they did nothing criminal per se, but they were hardly nice either. And if the children were killed, that would be largely their fault. Is that not so?

[Curufin]

Originally Posted by CAB

I think Gildor's inactions are pretty much indefensible. He knew that Frodo was carrying a "great burden without guidance". He knew that Frodo was being pursued by Sauron's greatest servants. He knew that Gandalf didn't show up when expected. In short, he knew that something very important was happening, that Frodo was in the middle of it, and that he was in deep trouble. The speed with which Gildor's messenger reached Rivendell is evidence of Gildor's knowledge, I think.

I think this is when we need to step back and look at the War of the Ring from an entirely Elvish perspective. It's really not that big of a deal. Yeah, yeah, so there's this Ring and Sauron wants it back so that he can conquer the people of Middle-earth, yadda yadda. How does that affect the remnant of the Noldor? It doesn't (with the possible exception of Galadriel and Lothlórien). Sauron's bad, sure, but he's not half as bad as Morgoth, and the Valar took care of him in the end. They'll surely take care of Sauron too, who is only a rather powerful Maia. Heck, let Gandalf take care of him, for that matter. Ilúvatar and the Valar aren't going to let the world be ruled by evil, and anyway, fighting hasn't worked out so good for us in the past...

I used to believe that Gildor's inaction was due purely to apathy (see the quote Gordis gave), but I wonder now what role fear played. I don't mean fear of the Nazgul as much as fear of "meddling in the affairs of wizards" and mostly fear (or at least reluctance) of doing something.

I don't think it's that at all. There are two reasons that come to mind: 1) Gildor's heading west. He's obviously weary, and probably 'waning.' Why else would he be going west? He's likely been in Middle-earth far longer than Glorfindel, who was, of course, sent back. Gildor's likely been there since he crossed the Helcaraxë, or soon after. Give him a break - the guy's worn out and Middle-earth is eating at his soul. 2) He's of the house of Finarfin. These guys weren't particularly known for fighting, but for wisdom and talking. Finrod's contribution to Middle-earth? Keeping his oath, getting mauled by a werewolf, and having a rather interesting conversation with Andreth about life and death. We're not talking about a battle-hardened warrior family here.

This seems to be a common weakness among Elves. Often they must be greatly pressed before they take action. I would say this is a rather poor way to live for humans, but maybe it makes sense for immortals. This hesitance of Elves to act probably also helps explain why Men are more adaptable and, in the end, are a more "successful" race.

Yeah, and Túrin's counsel that Nargothrond do otherwise seemed to prove the Elvish point.

I also don't see the hobbits secrecy being hurt by the Elves' presence either, at least if they could stop singing for a while.

You mean, other than the fact they glow like giant gleaming torches from the Wraith world? Nah, won't hurt their secrecy at all...

Originally Posted by Jon S.

If nothing else, this expression of isolationism is certainly common in "regular earth," too.

Gildor's tired, people. He wouldn't be heading west if he weren't. Give him a break - it's not isolationism, he's going into retirement.

Originally Posted by Gordis

That was not the point I was making. Sure, Butterbur wouldn't have been of much help on the road, but he was willing to help to the best of his powers. Gildor was not.

He gave his advice. Remember, he is of the House of Finarfin - not known for their great fighting skills.

Come on, the fact that the hobbits were not too frightened only meant that they were too ignorant to be frightened enough. Thus, ignorant and naive, they needed protection even more.
A whole squard of singing HIGH Elves would have been a perfect protection from the nazgul. And Gildor did send a messenger to Rivendell to warn Elrond, who arrived nine days before the hobbits. Now why couldn't Gildor et al go with them?

Right, so it would have been even easier for the Nazgúl to find them! Great idea!

Nazgúl 1: Where are those rascally hobbits and the Ring?
Nazgúl 2: Hmm...maybe over there, surrounded by ten giant flaming torches???

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Curufin

I think this is when we need to step back and look at the War of the Ring from an entirely Elvish perspective. It's really not that big of a deal. Yeah, yeah, so there's this Ring and Sauron wants it back so that he can conquer the people of Middle-earth, yadda yadda. How does that affect the remnant of the Noldor? It doesn't (with the possible exception of Galadriel and Lothlórien).

You forget that it were NOLDOR who forged those accursed Rings in the first place. Your own son Celebrimbor in fact. and his dear buddy Annatar.

Originally Posted by Curufin

1) Gildor's heading west. He's obviously weary, and probably 'waning.' Why else would he be going west?

He was not going West - yet. He was wandering in the Shire with no clear purpose at all - and for a long time:

‘We know many things,’ they said. ‘We have seen you often before with Bilbo, though you may not have seen us.’

When they met the hobbits, they were returning from Elostirion where they looked into the Palantir.

Originally Posted by Curufin

You mean, other than the fact they glow like giant gleaming torches from the Wraith world? Nah, won't hurt their secrecy at all...

See my previous post: "While Frodo is surrounded by the Elves the nazgul cannot perceive the Ring clearly.RC p.91"

Sure the nazgul would be aware of the group of High Elves heading to Rivendell. Maybe they would understant that they carried the Ring. So what? Could they attack them? - hardly. They were only Nine, without any orcs or trolls at their disposal. They have repeatedly retreated seeing the lone Glorfindel. And don't forget how the nazgul hated gymns to Elbereth.

[Gordis]

He gave his advice. Remember, he is of the House of Finarfin - not known for their great fighting skills.

Finrod did reasonably well. His songs were powerful - and if they were not powerful enough to best Sauron in his first incarnation, they might have been enough for the poor ringless ringwraiths. Gildor could try, you know.
When Beren called on Finrod, it was not just some advice he received.

[Curufin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

You forget that it were NOLDOR who forged those accursed Rings in the first place. Your own son Celebrimbor in fact. and his dear buddy Annatar.

Yeah, but he disowned me, so not my problem.

He was not going West - yet. He was wandering in the Shire with no clear purpose at all - and for a long time:

When they met the hobbits, they were returning from Elostirion where they looked into the Palantir.

He was heading in the general direction of West. And:

'...we too are now only tarrying a while, ere we return over the Great Sea.'

So they're soaking up the 'beauty' of Middle-earth a little, and then leaving. Suffice it to say they won't be sticking around long.

See my previous post: "While Frodo is surrounded by the Elves the nazgul cannot perceive the Ring clearly.RC p.91"

But I don't think this really matters. They don't have to see the Ring to know it's going to be highly protected, and make assumptions that it's with them.

Sure the nazgul would be aware of the group of High Elves heading to Rivendell. Maybe they would understant that they carried the Ring. So what? Could they attack them? - hardly. They were only Nine, without any orcs or trolls at their disposal. They have repeatedly retreated seeing the lone Glorfindel. And don't forget how the nazgul hated gymns to Elbereth.

Perhaps they wouldn't have attacked them outright. But if they had a clear indication of where the ring was they could surely have acquired trolls and orcs, etc - backup, if you will. I don't think they ever would have reached Rivendell.

In addition, they wouldn't have met up with Strider, which would have caused a mess of its own.

[Curufin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Finrod did reasonably well. His songs were powerful - and if they were not powerful enough to best Sauron in his first incarnation, they might have been enough for the poor ringless ringwraiths. Gildor could try, you know.
When Beren called on Finrod, it was not just some advice he received.

But Gildor isn't Finrod, who was arguably much stronger, as he had not been subject to nearly as much 'fading'.

As for Beren - Gildor hadn't made any oath to Frodo and co. Not as if he's got to repay any hobbits for saving his life.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Curufin

I think this is when we need to step back and look at the War of the Ring from an entirely Elvish perspective. It's really not that big of a deal. Yeah, yeah, so there's this Ring and Sauron wants it back so that he can conquer the people of Middle-earth, yadda yadda. How does that affect the remnant of the Noldor? It doesn't (with the possible exception of Galadriel and Lothlórien). Sauron's bad, sure, but he's not half as bad as Morgoth, and the Valar took care of him in the end. They'll surely take care of Sauron too, who is only a rather powerful Maia. Heck, let Gandalf take care of him, for that matter. Ilúvatar and the Valar aren't going to let the world be ruled by evil, and anyway, fighting hasn't worked out so good for us in the past...

Yes, at the end of the Third Age the Elves didn't seem to care very much. They would be leaving soon. Of course during the First and Second Ages they gladly goaded Men into helping them out with their wars with Morgoth and Sauron. I would say that seems very selfish, but realistic is probably just as accurate. My problem is when we see people with this attitude as being very noble. Gildor is a good example.

Originally Posted by Curufin

I don't think it's that at all. There are two reasons that come to mind: 1) Gildor's heading west. He's obviously weary, and probably 'waning.' Why else would he be going west? He's likely been in Middle-earth far longer than Glorfindel, who was, of course, sent back. Gildor's likely been there since he crossed the Helcaraxë, or soon after. Give him a break - the guy's worn out and Middle-earth is eating at his soul. 2) He's of the house of Finarfin. These guys weren't particularly known for fighting, but for wisdom and talking. Finrod's contribution to Middle-earth? Keeping his oath, getting mauled by a werewolf, and having a rather interesting conversation with Andreth about life and death. We're not talking about a battle-hardened warrior family here.

1. Wasn't Gildor still around a few years later when Bilbo, Frodo, etc. took ship?
2. Are you suggesting that the Elves would only have gotten in the hobbits' way in a confrontation with the Nazgul. Sorry, I'm not buying it.

Originally Posted by Curufin

Yeah, and Túrin's counsel that Nargothrond do otherwise seemed to prove the Elvish point.

As I said, lack of action may have made sense for immortals. The Elves of Nargothrond could have waited until the Valar arrived, but this rescue would only have occurred after someone made something happen. And that someone, though ultimately made an immortal, identified himself more with Men than Elves.

Originally Posted by Curufin

You mean, other than the fact they glow like giant gleaming torches from the Wraith world? Nah, won't hurt their secrecy at all...

I could be mistaken, but I thought only Glorfindel, having been resurrected, glowed that way. If all the Noldor shown like torches, then how did they ever manage to sneak around so much during the First Age?

Originally Posted by Curufin

Gildor's tired, people. He wouldn't be heading west if he weren't. Give him a break - it's not isolationism, he's going into retirement.

If it isn't isolationism then it is practice for the even greater isolationism of life in Valinor. Maybe Gildor was getting lessons from some of the Valar?

Originally Posted by Curufin

He gave his advice. Remember, he is of the House of Finarfin - not known for their great fighting skills.

This is a poor excuse not to help. If I see a lost, crying child on the side of the road, should I walk by and say "Sorry, but I'm no good with kids"?

Originally Posted by Curufin

Right, so it would have been even easier for the Nazgúl to find them! Great idea!

Nazgúl 1: Where are those rascally hobbits and the Ring?
Nazgúl 2: Hmm...maybe over there, surrounded by ten giant flaming torches???

Pippen told Gildor that a Nazgul was drawing near just as the Elves arrived. Why would he think that the hobbits could make it all the way to Rivendell without being caught when there were Nazgul already right behind? Nevermind that the hobbits didn't know how to get to Rivendell, weren't experienced travelers, didn't even know what the Nazgul were, etc. etc., but even their one supposed advantage (stealth) didn't seem to be working so well for them.

Originally Posted by Gordis

I am judging on the basis of his actions that match his words only too well.
As for "regular earth," imagine a large group of hikers meeting three lost children in the woods far from any civilization. The boys say that they have lost their dad and are being pursued by mounted killers. Now the hikers give them something to eat and abandon them, not wishing to burden themselves with the other's problems or to change the own route.
How would you judge the hikers? Probably they did nothing criminal per se, but they were hardly nice either. And if the children were killed, that would be largely their fault. Is that not so?

Good example Gordis (and hello to you ). I don't suppose you would judge the hikers any less harshly if they were tired and this was their retirement hike, would you?

[Curufin]

Originally Posted by CAB

Yes, at the end of the Third Age the Elves didn't seem to care very much. They would be leaving soon. Of course during the First and Second Ages they gladly goaded Men into helping them out with their wars with Morgoth and Sauron. I would say that seems very selfish, but realistic is probably just as accurate. My problem is when we see people with this attitude as being very noble. Gildor is a good example.

I'm not claiming it's a 'noble' attitude, or that by not helping the hobbits Gildor is in any way 'noble.' I just understand, and don't blame him for it.

1. Wasn't Gildor still around a few years later when Bilbo, Frodo, etc. took ship?
2. Are you suggesting that the Elves would only have gotten in the hobbits' way in a confrontation with the Nazgul. Sorry, I'm not buying it.

I'm not saying they necessarily would have gotten in the way, but they certainly would have decreased the 'secrecy' element.

I could be mistaken, but I thought only Glorfindel, having been resurrected, glowed that way. If all the Noldor looked like shown like torches, then how did they ever manage to sneak around so much during the First Age?

All of the Caliquendi 'shone like torches.' Can't answer the second part, except to say that there weren't Wraiths yet in the First Age. And to say that they never really did that good at Sneaking.

This is a poor excuse not to help. If I see a lost, crying child on the side of the road, should I walk by and say "Sorry, but I'm no good with kids"?

No, but attempting surgery without a medical degree isn't intelligent either.

Pippen told Gildor that a Nazgul was drawing near just as the Elves arrived. Why would he think that the hobbits could make it all the way to Rivendell without being caught when there were Nazgul already right behind? Nevermind that the hobbits didn't know how to get to Rivendell, weren't experienced travelers, didn't even know what the Nazgul were, etc. etc., but even their one supposed advantage (stealth) didn't seem to be working so well for them.

Why should Gildor and co. care about Hobbits, or the Ring, anyway?

Good example Gordis (and hello to you ). I don't suppose you would judge the hikers any less harshly if they were tired and this was their retirement hike, would you?

Of course she wouldn't.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Curufin

I'm not claiming it's a 'noble' attitude, or that by not helping the hobbits Gildor is in any way 'noble.' I just understand, and don't blame him for it.

Originally Posted by Curufin

Why should Gildor and co. care about Hobbits, or the Ring, anyway?

Maybe I misunderstood your viewpoint Curufin. If you can appreciate the Elves while still seeing their shortcomings (no different than human shortcomings, really) then I applaud you. I am sure you will agree that many people see only the "shiny" aspects of the Elves without seeing their more self-centered side (the possession of which is a cost of being alive, I would argue).

[Curufin]

Originally Posted by CAB

Maybe I misunderstood your viewpoint Curufin. If you can appreciate the Elves while still seeing their shortcomings (no different than human shortcomings, really) then I applaud you. I am sure you will agree that many people see only the "shiny" aspects of the Elves without seeing their more self-centered side (the possession of which is a cost of being alive, I would argue).

I wouldn't like the Elves if they didn't have faults. Faults are what make characters interesting. To understand and to sympathise with a character, they have to have strengths and weaknesses - without both they're simply cardboard cutouts and boring as sin.

My favorite character is Fëanor - I empathise and sympathise with him because of his faults, not in spite of them. And this carries over to the rest of the Ñoldor as well.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Curufin

I wouldn't like the Elves if they didn't have faults. Faults are what make characters interesting. To understand and to sympathise with a character, they have to have strengths and weaknesses - without both they're simply cardboard cutouts and boring as sin.

My favorite character is Fëanor - I empathise and sympathise with him because of his faults, not in spite of them. And this carries over to the rest of the Ñoldor as well.

I agree with you. I usually don't try to pick a favorite this or favorite that when it comes to Middle Earth stuff, but I must say that Turin is my favorite Tolkien character, for the same reasons you gave for Feanor being yours.