Why did the Nazgûl drop Merry in Bree?

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Attalus

I will take 'competence,' here, to mean "the quality of being competent; adequacy; possession of required skill, knowledge, qualification, or capacity". I the Ringwraiths had been competent to take the Ring from Frodo, they would have done so. If it is argued that they were competent, then one must observe that they made a frightful hash of it, presumable because all their initiative had been drained form them "had no will left in the matter," as said under another connection.

A simple, but intelligent observation Attalus!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Attalus

I the Ringwraiths had been competent to take the Ring from Frodo, they would have done so.

Not necessarily. One can be very competent, but still unlucky.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Friends, the timing of events in the chapters “Sign of the Prancing Pony” and “Strider” is very important. If the time-line I’ve laid out is basically correct, and our interpretation of where Merry first saw the Black Rider in Bree is correct, then

Merry saw a Black Rider standing in the Road across from the Prancing Pony at the same time Frodo found the Ring had somehow slipped onto his finger.

I think the Nazgûl was in communication with the One Ring, and that is how the “accident” happened.

Remember, Tolkien wrote that Frodo

If what Merry saw was a Nazgûl arousing the One Ring to action, then that Ringwraith was the source of the “wish or command that was felt in the room.”

(When I described this to my son, he said it sounded like the Ringwraith was pinging the One Ring.)

Agree to that!

[Gordis]

Alcuin, Attalus and others, as for the discussion on nazgul competence (overall in the Hunt) I propose to open a separate thread for it later. I have managed to compare the preliminary scheme depicting the movements of individual riders found in the HOME 7, p.13 with the account in RC. They differ little, only the RC account is more complete. Now the account in RC has the letters denoting individual riders (A-I) re-inserted, with a bit of uncertainty only in 2-3 cases. I will prepare a table as nice as Alcuin's and post it. Then we can discuss their movements in the Hunt.

What is pertinent to this thread are the movements of our two Bree nazgul: they are H and I. These two guys (HI) constantly stick together, much like D [Khamul] sticks with E [his messenger from Dol Guldur]. It seems the eight lesser nazgul were used to working in pairs: BC, DE, FG, HI.

So, our pair HI at first was among the 5 nazgul in the Shire (DEGHI), led by Khamûl D. "[One H] takes road leading northwest to Michel Delving, and [another I] goes with him, but there ?fares on and traverses the North Farthing.
Khamûl D, alarmed at the escape of the Ring over the river on the night of 25 September, summoned the other four Riders who had entered the Shire: EGHI. They assemble at the Bridge in the early morning of 26th, probably). [Khamûl D] leaves one ( G) to lurk near the Bridge and watch it; he sends [two HI] along the East Road, with orders to report to [the Witch-king] the eastward movement of the Ring ; he himself with [his companion E] passes secretly into Buckland by the north gate of that land.
[The two sent east HI] pass along the East Road, and visit Bree and 'The Prancing Pony'

Strider: 'Black horsemen have passed through Bree. On Monday one came down the Greenway, they say; and another appeared later, coming up the Greenway from the south.' […]They had words with Harry at West-gate on Monday. I was watching them. He was white and shaking when they left him.'-LOTR
Butterbur: 'These black men,' said the landlord lowering his voice. 'They're looking for Baggins, and if they mean well, then I'm a hobbit. It was on Monday, and all the dogs were yammering and the geese screaming. Uncanny, I called it. Nob, he came and told me that two black men were at the door asking for a hobbit called Baggins. Nob's hair was all stood on end. I bid the black fellows be off, and slammed the door on them; but they've been asking the same question all the way to Archet, I hear." -LOTR

They (HI) then go in search of [the Witch-king A] but cannot at once find him [until 27th September]. He is elated to learn that the Ring was really in the Shire, but is alarmed and angry at its escape;[…] [The Witch-king] now sends out [three Riders FHI] separately, with orders to reassemble just east of Weathertop, and then return towards Bree along or near the Road. The three Black Riders FHI reached Bree at dusk [on 29 September], and soon learn from the Isengard spy of the events in the Inn, and guess the presence of the Ring. One F is sent to the Witch-king.... [He F] is waylaid by Dúnedain and driven away does not reach the Witch-king until the next day.... [The other two HI] foiled in their attempt to capture Merry make plans for attack on the Inn at night.. .. The Inn attacked by the two Riders HI in early hours before dawn. Crickhollow attacked at about the same time.... Both attacks fail. [The two Riders in Bree HI] go off in haste to find [the Witch-king] to report that Bearer has gone (without waiting for further news). [The three from Crickhollow DEG] ride down the Buckland Gate and make also for Andrath. The Nazgûl are thus all ABCDEFGHI assembled at Andrath. [The Witch-king] sends four Riders FGHI across country from Andrath to Weathertop. (again!)

So, before the arrival at Bree, our dears HI were travelling a lot: first in the Shire, then were sent to check Bree (Monday 26) and report to the Captain who was supposed to be at Andrath, but was inside the Barrows. They were looking for him all day Tuesday 27, wet and miserable (it was Goldberry's washing day!), then found him late in the evening and were sent cross-country to Weathertop (130 miles), then immediately returned to Bree (100 miles).

Pour guys - and POOR horses. Keep this in mind, they had horses, not motorbikes, and the horses had to be fed and watered and rested.

That's why I don't believe that ALL three nazgul entered Bree to spy. One did, yes, but two were most likely busy with tending to horses, either by Ferny's hut or outside the South gate.


Now to your time-scheme, Alcuin, and to my nitpicks.

I think you definitely should make another column for Ferny and Southerner and Harry

Alcuin, I still don't agree with "sometime during this period the third nazgul leaves to tell the WK they've found the Ringbearer."
1. I don't believe F left before his horse was fed and rested.
2. It is implied in the famous "dusk" quote" in RC that this nazgul carried the news about Frodo's ring-trick in the Pony, not the news of the four hobbits in Bree.
3. Finally, I believe the nazgul called on Harry Goatleaf before the hobbits arrived, so, he couldn't hear any news

I think it was like that. The three nazgul arrive at dusk (6.15) via the South Gate. They call on Ferny, and hear his report: NOTHING. They are not much surprised, as they hope the Ring is still in Buckland, if not already captured by Khamul. They send Ferny to the Pony to gather more news (I believe the common room merriment starts normally around 6.30- 7 pm).

Two of the nazgul remain in Ferny's yard tending to the three horses, using Ferny's well to water them and his supply of grain (poor starving Bill the Pony!) to feed them. Meanwhile with gathering darkness one nazgul carefully sneaks on foot through the village towards the West Gate, arriving there at about 6.45 and speaks with Harry Goatleaf. [along the lines of HOME 7 p. 41] Still nothing, says Harry: no hobbits of the Shire. The nazgul goes back to Bill's house.

In ten-fifteen minutes or so the hobbits arrive (7.00 or a tad later). Harry leaves the Gate, right after letting them in and goes to the Pony to report to the Southerner (again like in HOME 7 p. 41). The latter must have been in charge of the human spies at Bree.

Maybe a ruffian is sent from the Pony to Bill's house to tell the nazgul that four Shire hobbits are in the Pony.

The Ringwraith returns and watches the Inn, maybe induces the Ring's misbehavior, as Alcuin says. Maybe the ring senses him and misbehaves, without the nazgul's knowledge. After all, these H and I are not among the strongest in Ring-detection.

Then we differ with Alcuin. Merry is not yet back when the Ring-trick had occurred (9.15), IMO. The nazgul is watching the crowd of dissatisfied customers leave the Inn (9.20). He hides across the street, waiting for the crowd to disperse. The nazgul is about to quietly follow Ferny and the Dunlending, when Merry returns (9.25). Here the nazgul decides to lure him for questioning and leads him to the South Gate. When he arrives to the hedge he hears the full tale about the Ring and Frodo's disappearance from the Dunlending, gets excited and loses interest in Merry. Nob saves him.

At this point F is dispatched to the WK. (Hmm… the South Gate would be closed… maybe the horses were outside, after all. Or did they simply bully the other gatekeeper?)

Thoughts?

[Alcuin]

While I remember studying it closely, and posting on it (with you, I believe), I did not recall where the ABCDEFGHI listing of the Nazgûl movements was. Thank you.

I do not believe that the movements laid out in Treason of Isengard, “Of Hamilcar, Gandalf, and Saruman” are a reliable guide to the published version of FotR. For example, Hamilcar Bolger, the predecessor of Fatty (Hamilcar was nicknamed “Ham”, so that may be the source of the nickname “Fatty”) was kidnapped by the Nazgûl, who hauled him off to Andrath with Gandalf in pursuit. Clearly the storyline subsequently underwent some serious revision.

Besides recalling where it occurred, and that it does not dovetail with the “Hunt for the Ring” MSS (it’s the predecessor of “Hunt for the Ring”) used to complete the published work, I’d like to point out something for discussion in another thread: The Witch-king was labeled A in the ToI outline, while the “Vanguard Ringwraith” was D. DEF operated in one team, and HGI in another. BC stayed with A. Is it possible that that D, the “Vanguard Ringwraith”, none other than Khamûl? Then who are B and C? The other two Dúnedain seduced into wraithdom? Why did the Witch-king keep them aside? Was there tension between the three Númenóreans and the other Nazgûl?

Hopefully, I’ve set the table for a lovely, heated argument in a completely separate thread.

-|-

Gordis, my impression is that when Merry arrived back at the Inn, the street was empty except for the Black Rider. So he’s either arrived before the Commons room has broken up following the brouhaha with Frodo’s “accident” or so long afterwards that the street has cleared. We can work through how long Strider spoke with the hobbits before and after Gandalf’s letter arrived. If we can determine how long Strider and Frodo remained in the Commons room after the “accident,” then we can determine how long it was from the time of the “accident” until the time Merry burst into the room.

As far as how long it was before the three hobbits went to the Commons room, we know that in “Prancing Pony”, they are led to a little parlor or sitting room. Nob also showed them the bedrooms, and they washed and drank some beer. Then supper was brought;

at the end of their supper (about three quarters of an hour's steady going, not hindered by unnecessary talk) that Frodo, Pippin, and Sam decided to join the company.

If we assume that they arrived at town about 7, took about 15 minutes to find the Inn (the sight of which troubled Sam more than anything else in his journey to that point), and then spent 15-30 minutes meeting Butterbur, cleaning up and settling in, that brings us to 7:45 – 8:00. So far, so good.

Originally Posted by Gordis

I believe the nazgul called on Harry Goatleaf before the hobbits arrived, so, he couldn't hear any news

I agree. However, I think that Harry knew whom to tell that the expected Shire-hobbits had arrived: that would be Bill Ferny.

An aside here on Bill Ferny. He lived nearest the South-gate: that made it convenient for him to go in and out. Harry on the West-gate had been suborned; we should consider whether the keeper of the South-gate had been, too. Ferny was in league with the Isengarder spy, which means that he was Saruman’s man in Bree. Aragorn told Frodo that Ferny could not be trusted (“Ferny … would sell anything to anybody”): it is quite likely the Rangers had been keeping an eye on Ferny for some time, and were aware of Saruman’s espionage. In the little essay “Concerning Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire” at the end of “The Hunt for the Ring” in UT,

Gandalf knew of [Saruman’s] visits [to the Shire], and guessed their object,

which was to study the place Gandalf found so interesting, and to obtain pipe-weed. Afterwards, Saruman used agents like the Dunlending from Isengard; but who told Gandalf about the visits? Surely it was the Dúnedain, who had been keeping watch over the Shire and the rest of what had once been Arnor.

Originally Posted by Gordis

The three nazgul arrive at dusk (6.15) via the South Gate. They call on Ferny, and hear his report: NOTHING. They are not much surprised, as they hope the Ring is still in Buckland, if not already captured by Khamul. They send Ferny to the Pony to gather more news (I believe the common room merriment starts normally around 6.30- 7 pm).

Two of the nazgul remain in Ferny's yard tending to the three horses, using Ferny's well to water them and his supply of grain (poor starving Bill the Pony!) to feed them. Meanwhile with gathering darkness one nazgul carefully sneaks on foot through the village towards the West Gate, arriving there at about 6.45 and speaks with Harry Goatleaf. [along the lines of HOME 7 p. 41] Still nothing, says Harry: no hobbits of the Shire. The nazgul goes back to Bill's house.

In ten-fifteen minutes or so the hobbits arrive (7.00 or a tad later). Harry leaves the Gate, right after letting them in and goes to the Pony to report to the Southerner (again like in HOME 7 p. 41). The latter must have been in charge of the human spies at Bree.

Maybe a ruffian is sent from the Pony to Bill's house to tell the nazgul that four Shire hobbits are in the Pony.

They speak to Ferny first, I agree. If you want to argue that their horses are outside or inside, I don’t care, but I do agree that horses outside make it easier for the messenger to leave unnoticed for Andrath. Ferny was unlikely to have his own well: the town probably had common wells scattered about, and people took water from them: only the largest houses (or extended houses like the Inn) were likely to have individual wells. I have already agreed that they contacted Harry at the West-gate next. I do not agree that the Isengarder was the “spymaster” in Bree: that was sure to be Ferny: he would have received money from Isengard and bribed others to do or tell him what he wanted. People like the courier – the Dunlending we’re calling “the Isengarder” that the Witch-king caught – brought money and returned with goods and information to Saruman. If I had to speculate on who Ferny suborned himself, I would have to say it was the gatekeeper at South-gate, so that Ferny and his allies – including the Black Riders – could come and go without interference. BTW, this means that Ferny is probably at or near the center of much of any bad business going on in Bree.

Besides that, though, I agree with you that Harry either went to Ferny’s to deliver the information that four Shire-hobbits had passed his gate, or else he sent a message. (I vote for went himself.)

The Commons room was basically the tavern – the restaurant, if you will. I expect travelers, and a few well-to-do locals, but very few, began eating around 6 o’clock. Eating would go on for a while, and then more locals would show up to share some of the local brew, swap stories, and hear whatever the travelers had to tell. It was to this second half of the evening that Frodo, Pippin, and Sam joined themselves, and where Frodo had his “accident”.

I have the hobbits marked in the Common room for an hour, because we know from Merry that they were gone about that long when they went for a walk.

So far, we have accounted for everyone in the story – good guys and bad guys – until about 8:45 PM. I’ve marked all this off with blue background. Just to be clear, by the way, the actual time might be 9 o’clock if the hobbits took a little longer to visit their rooms, clear up, and settle into the parlor before supper. But at least everyone can be accounted for at 8:45 if we have correctly estimated how long these activities take. So far, I think we can “agree upon” this times, with the caveat that it might be 15-30 minutes later or even 15 minutes earlier at the end (if Frodo and his friends went straight to the Pony as might a local or regular visitor, and Butterbur took care of them right away.)



Loose ends in the blue boxes are the Nazgûl who set off for Andrath to tell the Witch-king that the Ringbearer is in Bree. I have not yet specified whet that Ringwraiths were doing, but I agree with Gordis that they first visited Ferny, then Harry, and then probably returned to Ferny’s. Whether there were some in or out of town with horses, I cannot say; but if there was a Nazgûl’s horse stabled with poor Bill the Pony, he should have spent the night sweating. awake, and trying to avoid being injured by a viciously–trained beast of war.

Toward the end, I’ve marked some events, but not their times, as “agreed upon”. These are marked in pink or light red. (Actually, very pale orange according to my color palate: I’m a little color-blind, and I’m afraid I can’t tell you which colors I can’t see well, because they look like other colors to me. If you notice my calling a color incorrectly, let me know.) The times are left unmarked because we’ve failed to account for the order of the events in the middle, and how long they took.

So I’m posing this. If the marked as “agreed upon” stuff is acceptable, please say so. I plan to leave it here a while before I post another graphic so that everyone who wants can express an opinion.

-|-

There are a lot of people looking at this thread and not saying anything. If that’s what you want to do, that’s fine. We would be VERY happy to hear from you!! If you’re young, or you’re timid, or you’ve never or rarely posted before, or someone has thoughtless stomped your good idea (or even some not-so-good ones), WE WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU, TOO. Don’t be shy: nobody knows you, and none of us will accuse of saying anything silly. <RIGHT, EVERYONE!!??>

“The Sign of the Prancing Pony” and “Strider” are a pair of chapters in which we see what the hobbits see: but what the hobbits don’t see is extremely important, because this is where the Black Riders finally discover the Ring, and this is where the real Hunt for the Ring begins. From Bree to Rivendell, Frodo is never safe again, and he’s in the hands of this strange man whom he doesn’t entirely trust, Strider. Right now, we’ve begun working out what happened in Bree because it is very complex, and if you notice something, or you don’t understand something, speak up! Because what you notice or don’t understand may provide us the key to finish the puzzle.

Please participate.

Gordis, let me get through this much, and we’ll discuss the proper order of Merry, Ferny, the Black Rider and their walk from the Inn to the South-gate. I want to get all my ducks in a row before I do. Most of all, I want to see if anyone else has noticed anything, and let them comment: there are a lot of eyes, and for this, I think we need to get as much input as possible. (So the rest of you do your best, and let us know what you think!)

Gordis, Attalus, CAB, Coffeehouse, Galin, Valandil, Olmer , and anybody I’ve left out, if you think the “agreed upon” stuff at the beginning or end of the timeline is out of whack, let me know that before we proceed, if you can.

(Added afterwards: Sorry, The Dread Pirate Roberts, I left you out of the list. Apologies...)

[Alcuin]

Here, I’ve already found an error. I left the hobbits’ dinner out of the rough time-line. That pushes everything back one-half hour. (Now Aragorn barricades the sitting room at 11 o’clock.)

Gordis, I figured that Merry got bored about the same time Pippin got drunk. (It should take about an hour for a young hobbit to get overwarm after dinner.) In any case, I figured Merry walked about 15 minutes away from the Inn, and then back. Since he already knew the way to the West Gate, I figured he walked there. He’s never been to Bree before, but his friends and relatives have, so he’s not scared of the place (like Sam); however, he’s unlikely to go wandering around in the dark where he doesn’t already know the way in a strange town (as Pippin might). A leisurely walk over to the West Gate takes about as long as riding ponies to the Inn in an unfamiliar town, I figured, and so does a leisurely walk back… Hey! A Black Rider! Across from the Inn!

And, no, I did not yet add columns for Ferny, Harry, and the Isengarder. Next time.

Okay, everybody. Please help us find all the mistakes.

If you haven’t posted, or you think we’ll eat you, or you’re shy, don’t hold back: speak up! If it isn’t right, or you don’t understand, tell us!

[Alcuin]

I think I got it.

Nob doesn’t leave until Butterbur sends him to look for Merry after Butterbur delivers Gandalf’s letter to Frodo. That’ll be important in a bit.

I think Merry came upon the Ringwraith just as it had called out the One Ring, and just as Frodo was falling off the table. Merry interrupted him, but the Ring had already revealed itself. Merry didn’t see anyone else on the street was because they were all in the Commons room at the Pony hooting at Frodo. The Ringwraith sees Merry and skedaddles off to Ferny’s house. Merry follows him.

The party at the Pony breaks up in a huff. Ferny, the Isengarder, and possibly Harry (suddenly suffering Heisenberg Syndrome after Schrödinger's cat scratched him) start for home. Meanwhile, Merry reaches Ferny’s house ahead of Ferny and his companion(s), and finds the Black Rider speaking to someone on the other side of the hedge. Gordis, that someone has got to be the third Black Rider, who, armed with the certain knowledge that the Ringbearer is in Bree, leaves to tell the Witch-king.

The other two Ringwraiths now deal with with the interloper, Merry, who faints from Black Breath. Whether they really wanted him to follow them, or whether they think he is just spying on them, they still have to decide what to do with him. Back at the Inn, Butterbur puts two and two together and suddenly remembers Gandalf’s letter to Mr. Frodo Baggins of The Shire, which he delivers to the accident-prone “Mr. Underhill.” He sends Nob to look for Merry.

Ferny arrives home with the Isengarder, if not Harry, too. (Harry’s in and out at this point in the evening.) He realizes that Merry is not a Bree hobbit. The remaining two Ringwraiths decide to pick him up and carry him either into Ferny’s house or stable, and they probably order Ferny and the Isengarder to do it. As they start moving Merry, Nob shows up, and while he’s still too far away for the Ringwraiths to do anything about him without causing a commotion in the quiet town, Nob starts yelling. They drop Merry lest the noisy Nob rouse the town and the Ringbearer escape in the confusion.

So, Gordis, I think you were right, and the third Nazgûl left about 10 PM. It doesn’t matter whether the horses are inside the town or outside at that point.

Did I miss anything, or get anything wrong?

[Valandil]

Alcuin - your timeline and conclusions all seem very plausible to me.

Great research!

Merry seems to have been a consistent foiler of Nazguls.

BTW - I deleted the post you didn't want anymore... you have to ask one of us for something like that.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

My login timed out, and I ended up deleting a detailed post about the possible time of the attack on the Inn. I'll try to summarize it again.

When I first tried to think of when the Inn might have been attacked I thought midnight sounded literary and appropriate. Then I recalled some information I recently learned about the sleep patterns of pre-industrial people.

Before the advent of the electric light, people would routinely go to sleep not very long after dark (called "first sleep" across many languages and cultures), sleep for several hours, then awaken and use the outhouse, grab a snack, make a booty call, and perform other mundane tasks for an hour or two, then return to sleep until dawn. (Roger Ekirch's history book "At Day's Close" as well as modern sleep research supports this.)

That tells me that a midnight attack wouldn't be wise, since the attacker would be likely to find at least some people awake and about.

So when would the populace most likely be deepest in slumber? The same time the Nazgul choose to attack the house in Crickhollow. The hour that is also coldest and darkest, just before dawn. Sunrise at that time of year is probably shortly after 6am, so we're looking at probably some time around 5am.

It fits the normal sleep pattern of individuals in such a society as Bree and it fits the established pattern of the Nazgul (if two events can make a pattern).

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

My login timed out, and I ended up deleting a detailed post about the possible time of the attack on the Inn. I'll try to summarize it again.

When I first tried to think of when the Inn might have been attacked I thought midnight sounded literary and appropriate. Then I recalled some information I recently learned about the sleep patterns of pre-industrial people.

Before the advent of the electric light, people would routinely go to sleep not very long after dark (called "first sleep" across many languages and cultures), sleep for several hours, then awaken and use the outhouse, grab a snack, make a booty call, and perform other mundane tasks for an hour or two, then return to sleep until dawn. (Roger Ekirch's history book "At Day's Close" as well as modern sleep research supports this.)

That tells me that a midnight attack wouldn't be wise, since the attacker would be likely to find at least some people awake and about.

So when would the populace most likely be deepest in slumber? The same time the Nazgul choose to attack the house in Crickhollow. The hour that is also coldest and darkest, just before dawn. Sunrise at that time of year is probably shortly after 6am, so we're looking at probably some time around 5am.

It fits the normal sleep pattern of individuals in such a society as Bree and it fits the established pattern of the Nazgul (if two events can make a pattern).

I agree with this, and regret the "long post" that was lost. For long posts, I type them out in Word or similar programs and save them. That comes in useful on Tolkien forums when somebody raises old questions like "Who really slew the Witch-King?"

[Alcuin]

DPR, the website I used to get the times for London’s sunset and dusk say that sunrise the following day should be

05:07 - Astronomical Twilight Begins
05:47 - Nautical Twilight Begins
06:26 - Civil Twilight Begins
06:59 - Sunrise

Dawn should begin about 6:30, with sunrise at 7.

Hammond and Scull complain that the cock crowed in Crickhollow before the Black Riders broke down the door of Frodo’s house. RC, “Knife in the Dark”, 176 (I: 188):

…traditionally the cock crows to signal dawn…, at which time ghosts and apparitions must vanish…

However, Tolkien demonstrates once again that he has better insight even than his friendly critics. My grandmother lived on a farm and kept chickens. They start crowing well before sunrise, typically when it’s still dark. That’s one way farmers awakened before dawn to check on their animals in the days before alarm clocks. The chickens could have been up as early as a quarter of 6, long before 6:30.

Dr. Attalus is right: you’re safer to use Word or some other word processor (anyone remember WordPerfect?) to hammer out your post.

BTW, if anyone wants to copy and paste from the time-line table, there is an HTML version at this link, or just click on any of the graphics of the chart.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

My login timed out, and I ended up deleting a detailed post about the possible time of the attack on the Inn. I'll try to summarize it again.

When I first tried to think of when the Inn might have been attacked I thought midnight sounded literary and appropriate. Then I recalled some information I recently learned about the sleep patterns of pre-industrial people.

Before the advent of the electric light, people would routinely go to sleep not very long after dark (called "first sleep" across many languages and cultures), sleep for several hours, then awaken and use the outhouse, grab a snack, make a booty call, and perform other mundane tasks for an hour or two, then return to sleep until dawn. (Roger Ekirch's history book "At Day's Close" as well as modern sleep research supports this.)

That tells me that a midnight attack wouldn't be wise, since the attacker would be likely to find at least some people awake and about.

So when would the populace most likely be deepest in slumber? The same time the Nazgul choose to attack the house in Crickhollow. The hour that is also coldest and darkest, just before dawn. Sunrise at that time of year is probably shortly after 6am, so we're looking at probably some time around 5am.

It fits the normal sleep pattern of individuals in such a society as Bree and it fits the established pattern of the Nazgul (if two events can make a pattern).

The first point I agree very much on. The Nazgûl would have seen enough homes alight and neither would midnight necessarily be the darkest hour. I would think though that the Nazgûl, if they were judging what hour the most people were asleep, I would presume they knew little about first and second sleep. Being Nazgûl I can't see exactly them being able to imagine this as they did not themselves sleep. And I don't think seeing your horse sleep counts as any experience with this

But if it is true that the coldest and darkest hour is in the hour just before dawn (in northern Europe this varies greatly between the seasons I believe, with a great variation between the summer and the winter) then it probably is so that the Nazgûl attacked then.

I think am though more inclined to believe that they attacked around 3am to 4am at night.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

The Nazgul were all once Men. Of course they knew the sleep pattern. Everyone knew it; it was second nature in the time before electric lights. And as you say, the candles and lamps alight during the waking hour(s) after midnight would be obvious to the Nazgul and they would have to wait, regardless of their knowledge of sleep patterns.

Sunrise for September 30 in London is 7:00AM Daylight Savings Time, according to this site (I couldn't figure out how to use Alcuin's link):
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldcloc...&afl=-11&day=1
And we have to assume there was no "daylight savings time" in Bree, making it a 6:00AM sunrise.

Combine that information with the method of attack set at Crickhollow and you have the hour or so before dawn (between 4:30 and 5:00) as the time of the attack.

EDIT: Changed 29th to 30th

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

And we have to assume there was no "daylight savings time" in Bree, making it a 6:00AM sunrise.

Oh, good grief! Did I overlook Daylight Savings Time?! Do I have to recalculate that whole table for the rough time-line?!!

Didn't Ben Franklin suggest Daylight Savings Time as a joke to parody Parisians who arose so late in the day?

[Gordis]

UH-oh, Sorry I had no time today for this discussion. It will have to wait till tomorrow.

In the timelines I have studied I definitely remember reading that the Inn and the house at Crickhollow were attacked at about the same time. So it all fits.

[CAB]

Overall I like your timeline and central theory very much, Alcuin.

I agree with Gordis's and your (revised) idea that the third Nazgul went to inform the Witch King after Frodo's Ring-incident. Your theory is better supported this way since, if the Nazgul had this trick up their sleeves, it would have been a strange choice to send the messenger on the long trip to find the Witch King without first attempting to "ping the Ring".

I could be off base here, but the timing of the events after 9:45 for Merry and after 10:00 for Aragorn and the remaining Hobbits seems a bit stretched to me. Merry's bravery (or silliness or umm…being drawn) in following a Nazgul through an unfamiliar town at night would be extraordinary if it lasted more than just a few minutes. Also, the timeline leaves a minimum of 30 minutes between Merry following the Nazgul and Nob discovering him. If he walked at a normal pace for the majority of this time, wouldn't Merry have walked right out of a small town like Bree? If he didn't spend the majority of the time walking, then he was eavesdropping/passed out in the middle of the road for quite a while before the Nazgul did anything with him.

Concerning Aragorn and the rest of the Hobbits (while freely admitting that I haven't read this portion of the story for a few years) I recall that we are present for what has to be most (or close to most) of the time spent between Aragorn meeting the Hobbits in the parlor and Merry bursting in. Half an hour minimum seems a bit long here.

I don't think that these objections (if they are valid) cause any problems concerning the main premise that a Nazgul played a role in causing Frodo's Ring-incident.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by CAB

I could be off base here, but the timing of the events after 9:45 for Merry and after 10:00 for Aragorn and the remaining Hobbits seems a bit stretched to me.

You’re not off base. All times but three are estimated. The quarter-hour units are arbitrary.

I think that the distance from the Inn to the South-gate and Ferny’s house was much further than the distance from the Inn to the West Gate. The map for Bree in Karen Fonstad’s Atlas of Middle-earth shows that Ferny’s house and the South-gate are two or three times as far from the Inn as the West Gate. I don’t know how accurate her map is, but I strongly suspect Tolkien had a working map or sketch-map of Bree – he always worked from maps, and was meticulous about keeping them – so I suspect there is a Tolkien map, and that she saw it.

I think Merry was compelled to follow the Nazgûl and later recognized that. When Strider told Merry he had “a stout heart”, Merry replied, “‘I could hardly help myself. I seemed to be drawn somehow.’” (FotR, “Strider”)

You are right that the half-hour seems long: it is a rough time-line, but it can give us a good idea about when things happened. More important is the order of events, and whether things happened at the same time: specifically, after working on this, I have reached the conclusion that Merry found the Black Rider standing outside the Prancing Pony at the same time or very nearly the same time that Frodo had his accident, which is something I had never before considered. Even after all the times I’ve read LotR, it only now occurred to me that the Nazgûl standing outside the Prancing Pony might have influenced the Ring’s behavior. That being said, the Nazgûl did not necessarily understand that the Ring was inside the Inn: the “Hunt for the Ring” MSS (cited in RC 177 (I:189)) says the Black Riders in Bree “learn from the Isengard spy of the events in the Inn, and guess the presence of the Ring.” (More fodder for the argument over boggled, stupid, or inept Ringwraiths; at least, these guys were not nearly as sensitive to the presence of the One Ring as Khamûl or the Witch-king.)

Use the rough time-line with the caveat that, the later into the evening it goes, the less reliable the time in the left-hand column. The only “hard” time references we have are “dusk” on 29 September, that the hobbits’ supper took three-quarters of an hour, and Merry’s testimony that he waited an hour before going out for a walk. As for the time of dusk, we know Tolkien used the calendar for 1941–42 for the phases of the moon; I think I recall that he also had an almanac: they are common, and for information like sunrise, sunset, and the phases of twilight, have been quite accurate for hundreds of years. All the other lengths of times are estimates using quarter-hour blocks.

When events tie together the characters, we know from the rough time-line what other things must have already transpired, and what is yet to happen. That is its real utility. For instance, when Merry bursts into the parlor, we know where Strider and all the hobbits are, and that Nob is with him. We also know he has followed the Black Rider to Ferny’s but he never mentions seeing anybody else, or meeting people coming out of the Pony (there should have been a lot of people in the street for that hour had the Commons room crowd already broken up, so I think the best bet is that it hadn’t when he started after the Black Rider). That means that Bill Ferny and the Isengarder reached Ferny’s house after he did, and that Merry was alone for a short time with the Black Riders who were at Ferny’s house. It strongly suggests that the mumbling he heard was another Black Rider, not Ferny or the Isengarder: the evidence leads me to conclude they were behind Merry. (That in and of itself may account for some of the time: the second Black Rider may well have asked his fellow, “Who is this halfling you just Black Breathed, Frick?” “Well, Frack, I met him outside the Inn and lured him here.” “Why on earth did you do that?” “Oh. Um … I don’t know. He was staring at me, and it bothered me! Look, it seemed like a good idea at the time. Say, what’s that racket?” “It’s Ferny and the Isengarder. Hey, you two! Do you know who this halfling is?”)

Mainly, we can determine the order of events, roughly when they occurred, and where each of the characters is from evening until morning. (Except Harry Goatleaf, who is suffering Heisenberg Syndrome these days.)

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

Sunrise for September 30 in London is 7:00AM Daylight Savings Time, according to this site (I couldn't figure out how to use Alcuin's link)

I specifically asked for GMT when I calculated my times on the website. When I asked for sunrise for the 30th, I forgot and left the time on automatic, which delivered DST. Sorry. The correct GMT times from the website I used are

4:07 - Astronomical Twilight Begins
4:47 - Nautical Twilight Begins
5:26 - Civil Twilight Begins
5:59 – Sunrise

Does anyone know the correct GMT times for sunrise, sunset, and twilight for September 29 and 30, 1941? Those must be the times Tolkien himself used: they will be a little different from the times for 2009.

[Olmer]

Nice timetable Alcuin, seems gives a very visual idea of an exact whereabout of all major "players", which makes it a quite valuable in Tolkien's work study. Besides, interesting theory.

Originally Posted by CAB

Also, the timeline leaves a minimum of 30 minutes between Merry following the Nazgul and Nob discovering him. If he walked at a normal pace for the majority of this time, wouldn't Merry have walked right out of a small town like Bree?

According to Karen Fonstad's map ( and all her maps were made on detaled studies of Tolkien's own drawings and calculations) to the Ferny's house is a little bit less than a mile.
At a normal pace (2 mph) Merry would definately be out of Bree, BUT he did not start walking right away. He went for a stroll (about 15 min?) then came back to theirs lodging quarter at the back of the inn. Stood for a while, looking at the stars, and then saw something, and went "around the corner" on the main road to take another look. It's not the fact he saw a Nazgul. Could be just another ranger ( judging by Aragorn's behavior, they had a very peculiar manner of coming and going), or someone making a shortcut from the tavern to his home.
About this time people were leaving the "Prancing Pony", and, I think, the street was not that deserted. Merry would unharriedly walk on the main road, not attracting attention, as should do any respectful hobbit. So, in my POV 30 min just barely cover his jaunt.

[Gordis]

There is a site with Fonstad's maps online. Here is the Bree one:

Bree

[CAB]

Disclaimer: I don't know much about this kind of thing, so take it for what it is worth.

Doesn't Bree as seen in that map seem a bit large? Doing some (very) rough measurements and calculations, Bree would have been somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 hectares. I checked around the internet a little bit, but was unable to find any really useful/reliable information regarding the typical sizes of Medieval European towns. Even so, the impression I get is that 200 hectares appears too big, even when considering that the Bree we see in The Lord of the Rings was much less populated than during earlier days, when there was greater traffic on the roads.