Journeys discussion thread

[Rían]

OK, Earniel got me her edits for Hallindel, and my post introducing Alagos' sister, Alariel, is up!

Earniel, I made a few minor changes that I didn't think were worthy of a PM - let me know if this final version is OK with you. I took out the bit about the harp and the flute not combining very often, because they often DO combine - there are many flute and harp pieces. I made it that A & H just seemed to not get together often for some unspecified reason. After all, there's probably many, many people there, and many musicians, and not all the musicians would know each other well. Is that OK? Whatcha think?

[Earniel]

Oh, of course harps and flutes go together, sometimes really beautifully too. Me saying the flute and the strings hadn't been combined often was an attempt at a poetic way of saying the music of Hallindel and Alariel hadn't been combined often yet, i.o.w. their paths hadn't crossed very often. Your way is clearer.

So no worries.

[Rían]

Oh, I see - I was just reading it too literally sorry!

(ps - thanks for the thread name change )

[Rían]

Nice post, Willow - you are VERY good and creative at your dialogue terms (I tend to use "said" way too much ) and it's so intriguing to think of Rivendell in its planning stages ...

[Willow Oran]

Thank you. I try to keep a good balance of types of tags. It's nice to mix it up, but at the same time there really is no substitute for 'said' and 'asked' as useful, non-distracting tags.

I really like the use of music you and Earniel have going, the auditory sense is too often under-used in description and it adds a lot here.

About what population are we thinking for Rivendell in this period? We've been calling it a hamlet, but are there additional numbers hanging out on the borders and only sometimes coming all the way in?

Developing settlments is fun.

[Varnafindë]

It started out with a retreating army (or rather, what remained of one) which finally found some place which it could defend, and then was besieged for a couple of years before the Numenoreans came to save their hide.

Would it attract other settlers, or would it only be a military outpost?

And I'm still working on the post where Rameldir is talking to Ainon.

[Willow Oran]

But in terms of size... say the initial population would have been very mixed, refugees and soldiers, and probably in the mid-thousands but decreased during the siege due to causualties, with maybe a slight increase just after the siege is broken.

Then a greater decrease from people leaving to return to their homes and no one coming in because it has yet to be built into something to attract settlers.
So... at the moment in the game Rivendell probably has civilians whose homes were utterly destroyed but who didn't want to go westwards to Lindon or beyond and a small military force, left behind to keep it as a stronghold. Maybe around 1,000 people max.?

[Earniel]

If I remember correctly Elrond had been to the devestation of Eregion before retreating into the Imladris valley. So it is likely he had some of the civilian survivors of the Eregion settlements with him when they were besieged in the valley. ( cross-posted, I see Willow already said it all.)

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

If I remember correctly Elrond had been to the devestation of Eregion before retreating into the Imladris valley. So it is likely he had some of the civilian survivors of the Eregion settlements with him when they were besieged in the valley. ( cross-posted, I see Willow already said it all.)

Yes, he was sent to Eregion by Gil-galad, to fight Sauron there. If not for the Dwarves of Moria, his army might not have survived at all, but they came out and fought Sauron's army from the rear, giving Elrond a chance to retreat. He was pressed northwards rather than choosing to go there, though, and it's only in my storyline that he knows about Rivendell and aims for it - in the canon nothing is said about how he found Rivendell.

Would the refugees still follow him, even when the enemy was upon them - or would they stay behind near their ravaged homes, hoping that something might be raised from the ashes?

After the siege was lifted, perhaps homeless wanderers might decide to join the small settlement. I would agree about a total of a thousand as the maximum ...

[Varnafindë]

We have already decided upon Glorfindel's time of return, and of Gil-galad's parentage.
I have realized that there are a couple of other issues that will arise soon as well:

Who is Amroth?
And who rules Lorinand?

I would suggest that Amroth is not the son of Galadriel and Celeborn. Even Tolkien soon abandoned the idea. I prefer Celebrian to be their only child, like she is in LotR.

Like Thranduil, Amroth then became King at the beginning of the Third Age after his father fell in the War of the Last Alliance. At the time of our story, his father Amdir is King of Lorinand.

Tolkien's other version is that Lorinand had no king, but the people there ruled themselves without one ruler.

In both versions, Galadriel comes there some time during the Second Age to help them fortify themselves, preparing for war with Sauron. So at our time she could be in Lorinand as guest and advisor of King Amdir, while Prince Amroth also is around.

Any comments?

[Earniel]

I am in favour of Amroth being the son of AmdÃ*r the King. It also fits better IMO with Galadriel and Celeborn later being Lady and Lord of Lórien instead of Queen and King.

About Lorinand, Tolkien had a habit of giving places different names during different periods. I like my posts to be fairly consistant with the right time frame (although I nearly always mess up) so help me for a moment: Imladris was the first name of Elronds Last Homely House, and Rivendell came only later? And Lothlórien isn't yet known under that name but is Lorinand first? Am I correct?

[Varnafindë]

Imladris is Sindarin, and Rivendell is Westron, the Common Tongue, so those names would be used in parallell, only by different speakers. Just like Mithrandir and Gandalf.

The Elves would be more inclined to use Sindarin, but Men more likely to use Westron. But I've had my Elves use the Westron name as well at times. Perhaps Westron was being used as the main common language of the settlement, and that the Elves just used Sindarin when they wanted to speak Elf to Elf - or perhaps they often used the Westron name even when they were speaking Sindarin just because everyone else was using it.

Lothlorien got that name when Galadriel moved there permanently in the Third Age. Lorinand was an early name for it, and I assume that at our time, people were beginning to call it Lorien, which was its name until Galadriel changed it. I actually mention this in my next post, which is finally ready to be posted ...

[Willow Oran]

I agree that Imladris and Rivendell are probably both in use by this time. I'm going to have Glor stick to using Imladris, though, it just sounds better to me.

Also, are we planning to have the two groups head out at about the same time and meet on the road, or will the group from Mithlond head first to Imladris and pick up the rest of the characters there?

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

I agree that Imladris and Rivendell are probably both in use by this time. I'm going to have Glor stick to using Imladris, though, it just sounds better to me.

He's just (for some reason) more consistent in his use of Sindarin than Rameldir. A matter of personal preference, I guess. Rameldir isn't very consistent when it comes to names. I believe he speaks Sindarin with most of his fellow Elves, though. And Quenya, when he gets a chance, which isn't very often.

Also, are we planning to have the two groups head out at about the same time and meet on the road, or will the group from Mithlond head first to Imladris and pick up the rest of the characters there?

I would like the group from Mithlond to arrive at Rivendell before Rameldir and Ainon have left - and then have them want to travel together. Rameldir has probably sent a message to Calimon, and is waiting for his answer.

I would also like the group from Mithlond to give Elrond some input for his plans for Rivendell.

[Willow Oran]

I would like the group from Mithlond to arrive at Rivendell before Rameldir and Ainon have left - and then have them want to travel together. Rameldir has probably sent a message to Calimon, and is waiting for his answer.

Shiny!

[Earniel]

Thank you, I feel more sure now to use those names.

As for the Mithlond group getting to Rivendell, I would indeed like my characters to do more there than just passing through, which is why I suggested having Rivendell in construction so there was something to do. I haven't worked out what exactly I want them to do there, but getting involved in some way in the planning/construction sounds sofar the most interesting.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

As for the Mithlond group getting to Rivendell, I would indeed like my characters to do more there than just passing through, which is why I suggested having Rivendell in construction so there was something to do. I haven't worked out what exactly I want them to do there, but getting involved in some way in the planning/construction sounds sofar the most interesting.

That's where we have the first chance of a philosophical discussion of what was lost at the Fall of Gondolin, I suppose.
And what can be regained with the construction of Rivendell.

Realistically, not much, I guess but it will make a lovely discussion and a chance for participation from the newcomers with those drawings that Elrond is working on.

[Earniel]

Posted.

RÃ*an, if you'd like, that's your queue for Alariel.

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

I really like the use of music you and Earniel have going, the auditory sense is too often under-used in description and it adds a lot here.

Music and Elves go well together. Unfortunately I have not no musical skill whatsoever, I can hesitantly read notes but that's it. So Hallindel's music is sheer improvising and hoping it won't show too much.

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

Realistically, not much, I guess but it will make a lovely discussion and a chance for participation from the newcomers with those drawings that Elrond is working on.

Indeed. The idea of the Hall of Fire should come up, I think. It's quite a distinguished feature of Rivendell and since that's the place when songs and tales of old get told, that'd be a good hook for discussion about 'rebuilding' something of Gondolin.

[Rían]

Nice posts, people! Sorry I've been out of it - we've had 5 doctor appointments in 3 days. See venting thread I'll try to make an Alariel/Hallindel post in my head and get it posted soon. I'm ready to set them out - is it ok if we just jump to them leaving?

I had the exact same idea for the Hall of Fire, Earniel!

All the other things sound good, too - I can't remember them offhand, but I remember I thought they were good as I was reading them.

[Earniel]

No objection on that from my part.