Journeys discussion thread

[Varnafindë]

Perhaps it's enough if Rian edits it into one of the two first posts in this thread? Then we can know where to go to look for info.

[Willow Oran]

I guess that Glorfindel and Rameldir have the same family relationship here as in Son of the Evening Star? Including Glorfindel feeling awkward towards the (older) Elf who he remembers as a little boy ... which might be about the same even if we stick to Tolkien's later concept that the rehoused Elves didn't become as little children.

I've never stuck to that earlier concept, as the later idea of restoring them to a more perfect adult form with an emotional return to innoccence seems less strange than small children with the memories of heroes running around Valinor (can you imagine the chaos in the various royal households?). Either way, yes, Glor is missing both the physical marks of his previous life and a millenia or two of living experience which does render him 'younger' than he actually is.

As for the info thread... it does seem a bit unneeded right now, but I bet once we get moving it'll prove useful. It is nice to have the info. posts in one place that isn't cluttered with other stuff.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

I've never stuck to that earlier concept, as the later idea of restoring them to a more perfect adult form with an emotional return to innoccence seems less strange than small children with the memories of heroes running around Valinor (can you imagine the chaos in the various royal households?).

I agree that the latter seems to be a better concept.

I read some fanfiction once, about Amarië, waiting for the reborn little boy Finrod to grow up sufficiently for them to finally get married. Weird. Although he did not have the full memory of his past, so she wasn't even sure whether he would eventually remember that they were supposed to marry. Even more weird.

Anyway, I've promoted Ainon to a place in my family tree - which is getting more and more tangled. (He's still a secondary character, but finally someone to be developed a bit more.)

Ainon is now the nephew of Rameldir's future mother-in-law , who is a Nando from Lothlorien - her sister is Ainon's mother. His parents are currently living in Edhellond, not far from the mouth of the River Anduin (after having travelled around a lot). Ainon was born early in the Second Age. His father is a Sinda, a survivor from Doriath.

Earlier I mentioned Nolemire, a daughter of some survivors from Nargothrond - she will end up marrying Ainon's cousin. Perhaps they meet during these journeys?

[Rían]

Whatever works for you is fine Just wait and see how it goes - often things seem to write themselves!

These discussions made me think of something - we have guys like Rameldir who are in the army, so to speak - makes me wonder - how free are elves in general who are in the army? I always thought of elves as pretty much free to wander around, but is this true? Are they just "on call" during peacetime? Obviously even during peaceful times, they need to drill and stay in shape, and captains and such would need to be in charge of this. Can our guys just pick up and leave? I was envisioning my guys "checking in" with Cirdan as a kind of formality. Is this reasonable? Are only the "non-regular army" elves free to move around?

What are people's thoughts?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

I've never stuck to that earlier concept, as the later idea of restoring them to a more perfect adult form with an emotional return to innoccence seems less strange than small children with the memories of heroes running around Valinor (can you imagine the chaos in the various royal households?). Either way, yes, Glor is missing both the physical marks of his previous life and a millenia or two of living experience which does render him 'younger' than he actually is.

It's definitely a strange concept!

As for the info thread... it does seem a bit unneeded right now, but I bet once we get moving it'll prove useful. It is nice to have the info. posts in one place that isn't cluttered with other stuff.

Yes, I agree. I'll put useful links in there, too, like that distance finder that Gordy provided.

[Willow Oran]

These discussions made me think of something - we have guys like Rameldir who are in the army, so to speak - makes me wonder - how free are elves in general who are in the army? I always thought of elves as pretty much free to wander around, but is this true? Are they just "on call" during peacetime? Obviously even during peaceful times, they need to drill and stay in shape, and captains and such would need to be in charge of this. Can our guys just pick up and leave? I was envisioning my guys "checking in" with Cirdan as a kind of formality. Is this reasonable? Are only the "non-regular army" elves free to move around?

I think since it is peacetime they could obtain a leave of absence to go and wander for a time. I was going to have Glor ask Elrond's permission before setting off with the answer depending on the shape of the story you were aiming for.

[Varnafindë]

I think what surprises Rameldir the most, is that Gil-galad and Elrond are actually offering him the option to retire from the army. Perhaps to set up something for himself where he will need a guard of his own, but even so ...

And they still expect him to be available in times of war.
Perhaps there will be training sessions where Company Blue will fight Company Orange just for practice, once a decade - and that even Elves not in the army will be expected to take part in some of these, to be able to be useful in the event of a war.

Ainon should need to ask Elrond for leave of absence to accompany Rameldir. Normally he would ask Rameldir for this if he wanted a week off, but that letter from Gil-galad changed the lines of command ...

[Rían]

OK, I've drafted up something that Earniel is checking over for edits for her character ...

[Willow Oran]

Cool! I like this, it's kind of like the workshop environment in creative writing classes, but with everyone collaborating instead of critiquing.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

I think since it is peacetime they could obtain a leave of absence to go and wander for a time.

Yes, I was thinking that would be the case. I just wanted to run it by you guys.

I was going to have Glor ask Elrond's permission before setting off with the answer depending on the shape of the story you were aiming for.

I don't quite know the shape yet - we'll all find out together What I was initially thinking was just visiting various Elven settlements and enjoying the trips, and looking for something somewhere that somehow makes it home for them, and if they can't find it, they'll sail West.

Yes, I think Glor would check with Elrond. That sounds reasonable.

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

I think what surprises Rameldir the most, is that Gil-galad and Elrond are actually offering him the option to retire from the army. Perhaps to set up something for himself where he will need a guard of his own, but even so ...

And they still expect him to be available in times of war.
Perhaps there will be training sessions where Company Blue will fight Company Orange just for practice, once a decade - and that even Elves not in the army will be expected to take part in some of these, to be able to be useful in the event of a war.

Ainon should need to ask Elrond for leave of absence to accompany Rameldir. Normally he would ask Rameldir for this if he wanted a week off, but that letter from Gil-galad changed the lines of command ...

All this sounds reasonable and along the lines I was thinking of.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

Cool! I like this, it's kind of like the workshop environment in creative writing classes, but with everyone collaborating instead of critiquing.

It's fun working up a post with someone - I always enjoyed it. What I would do is write it, then PM it to the other person with full edit rights, up to and including tossing the whole idea out. But mostly it's usually just some wording changes.

I like when we give encouraging critiques, but not everyone does, so if anyone would rather not hear critiques, let us know. Personally, as long as it's worded constructively, I'm all for hearing comments on my post, both good and bad (sample "bad" would be something like "In the second paragraph, you used a pronoun and it was really unclear if it referred to X or Y" or "I'm not quite getting it - is there some background here that didn't get shared yet?" or things like that). Sample good being like the comments that I've posted about people's posts already. I'd prefer that we keep bad to a minimum, though, since this is NOT a writing class. Whatcha think, ppl?

[Willow Oran]

I like and currently need constructive crit. for my writing. If anything good or bad stands out to you, please do let me know. I'm happy to return the favor if you like, or to keep quiet if you don't.

[Rían]

I would definitely like it. It's very helpful to me. Sometimes we forget that something is in our head and we haven't written it down for others yet, or other things, and I'd like to improve as a writer. Varna and Earniel, let us know if you'd like it.

But I repeat that as threadmeister, I'd like the criticism to lean towards the good, since this is not a writing class but rather an enjoyable cooperative effort among Tolkien lovers, and let's have the "bad" as constructive and helpful and positive as possible.

[Earniel]

I try to re-read as often as I can to prevent mistakes, but clearly, as English is not my mothertongue, I will make them nevertheless. Usually they tend to be literal translations from things that work in Dutch, but not in the same way in English, I call those my 'Dutchisms'. (RÃ*an, the 'when' instead of 'as' is one of those.) So if you spot them, feel free to point those out to me either in PM or here. I don't mind, constructive criticism is good for me.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Personally, as long as it's worded constructively, I'm all for hearing comments on my post, both good and bad (sample "bad" would be something like "In the second paragraph, you used a pronoun and it was really unclear if it referred to X or Y" or "I'm not quite getting it - is there some background here that didn't get shared yet?" or things like that). Sample good being like the comments that I've posted about people's posts already. I'd prefer that we keep bad to a minimum, though, since this is NOT a writing class. Whatcha think, ppl?

Detailed constructive criticism like that is good, in my opinion - it teaches the writer something, while a more sweeping generalisation doesn't. Praise is the same, actually - I've really appreciated it when you've given an example of something you liked in my post. It's more helpful than when I tend to just say 'great post!'

(And sometimes awkward wording will be because our native grammar shines through, and you native speakers of English will need to enlighten us.)

I think that if there is need for stronger criticism than this for something, a PM will be better than posting it in the thread. And more likely to come from the threadmaster than from the fellow writers.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I try to re-read as often as I can to prevent mistakes, but clearly, as English is not my mothertongue, I will make them nevertheless. Usually they tend to be literal translations from things that work in Dutch, but not in the same way in English, I call those my 'Dutchisms'. (RÃ*an, the 'when' instead of 'as' is one of those.)

Yes, I figured it was.

And let me say that I'm really, really impressed with you non-native English speakers!

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

Detailed constructive criticism like that is good, in my opinion - it teaches the writer something, while a more sweeping generalisation doesn't. Praise is the same, actually - I've really appreciated it when you've given an example of something you liked in my post. It's more helpful than when I tend to just say 'great post!'

Yes, it's really helpful when it's specific, isn't it?!

(And sometimes awkward wording will be because our native grammar shines through, and you native speakers of English will need to enlighten us.)

I totally (to use a Californian expression) understand, and as I said before, I think you guys are amazing! We'll let you know, then, but prob. mostly by PM if there's more than one, just because it's more comfy that way, I think.

I think that if there is need for stronger criticism than this for something, a PM will be better than posting it in the thread. And more likely to come from the threadmaster than from the fellow writers.

Sounds fine, but Willow is a native English speaker, too, and a very good writer, so I hope we can all be fine with comments from anyone.

And actually, since Tolkien's fans are so international, maybe you non-native English speakers can help us when we get too English, in a sense - like "you might want to reword that, because a non-native English speaker would have trouble understanding it" or something. Just a thought ...

To repeat once again (I don't think it can be repeated enough) - what I really want here for the main goal is a very enjoyable cooperative writing effort among Tolkien lovers, with a secondary goal of improving our writing skills in a safe and friendly atmosphere. Keep it nice and if a post needs more work than usual, probably just go to PM with the extra stuff. Just put yourself in the other person's shoes.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

We'll let you know, then, but prob. mostly by PM if there's more than one, just because it's more comfy that way, I think.

Sounds fine, but Willow is a native English speaker, too, and a very good writer, so I hope we can all be fine with comments from anyone.

Oh, for sure! The type of criticism to come from the threadmaster only, would be more of criticizing content, I should think. When there was something really bad that she didn't want in her thread. And I don't think that problem is likely to occur, with the present company

And actually, since Tolkien's fans are so international, maybe you non-native English speakers can help us when we get too English, in a sense - like "you might want to reword that, because a non-native English speaker would have trouble understanding it" or something. Just a thought ...

Hmmm ... possibly ...

what I really want here for the main goal is a very enjoyable cooperative writing effort among Tolkien lovers, with a secondary goal of improving our writing skills in a safe and friendly atmosphere.

Which is a very worthy endeavour. I'm enjoying it already.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

Oh, for sure! The type of criticism to come from the threadmaster only, would be more of criticizing content, I should think. When there was something really bad that she didn't want in her thread. And I don't think that problem is likely to occur, with the present company

Oh, I see what you mean. Yes, that's a good idea.

Which is a very worthy endeavour. I'm enjoying it already.

Me, too!

[Willow Oran]

Sounds fine, but Willow is a native English speaker, too, and a very good writer, so I hope we can all be fine with comments from anyone.

And actually, since Tolkien's fans are so international, maybe you non-native English speakers can help us when we get too English, in a sense - like "you might want to reword that, because a non-native English speaker would have trouble understanding it" or something. Just a thought ...

To repeat once again (I don't think it can be repeated enough) - what I really want here for the main goal is a very enjoyable cooperative writing effort among Tolkien lovers, with a secondary goal of improving our writing skills in a safe and friendly atmosphere. Keep it nice and if a post needs more work than usual, probably just go to PM with the extra stuff. Just put yourself in the other person's shoes.

Thanks, Rian! Like I said before, I'm happy to offer con. crit. in whatever area you all like. I don't think I'll find much to criticize though. You're all good, canon-conscious writers with years of practice on me.

[Rían]

Thanks back!

And as soon as Earniel gets her edits in for her character, I'll put up my post and would appreciate concrit (I made your abbreviated thing into a new word )

I've also drafted my next post - they're ready to hit the road (don't worry, I won't always work this fast - once they're on the way I'm sure I'll slow down, because I have no idea what's going to happen)