Entmoot
 


Go Back   Entmoot > J.R.R. Tolkien > Lord of the Rings Books
FAQ Members List Calendar

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-03-2018, 05:28 AM   #1
Alcuin
Salt Miner
 
Alcuin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gone to Far Harad
Posts: 987
Did Saruman kill Radagast?

Valandil put forward this idea in this thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valandil View Post
It has always seemed ominous to me that the Elves of Rivendell could not find Radagast before the Fellowship departed... and I’ve suspected Saruman of foul play here.
The more I think about it, the more I think Valandil must be right.

Once Gandalf escaped, Radagast would soon discover Saruman’s treachery. Though he had until then been neglectful of his mission, I think this knowledge would urgently have refocused him.

On his own ground, I suspect even Radagast could be dangerous; allied with Gandalf or other members of the White Council, there is no telling what he might help them accomplish: Gandalf indicated Radagast was a shape-shifter, something I don’t believe the other Istari could do in their incarnate forms.

Saruman had to deal with Radagast after Gandalf escaped. I think he may very well have gone so far as to kill the Brown Wizard. It was just too risky for Saruman to leave him loose.
Alcuin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2018, 11:40 AM   #2
Valandil
High King at Annuminas Administrator
 
Valandil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
Yes - Radagast's message had brought Gandalf into Saruman's clutches. But Gandalf's escape, he probably attributed to Radagast as well. He wouldn't have wanted Radagast meddling any further, and Radagast was probably vulnerable to attack.

Not that Saruman took the time away from home to do the job himself. But I suspect he either sent a band of Orcs, or gave Sauron the word to send someone (or forces) to do the job - claiming that he was no longer useful and had become a hindrance. I think more likely Sauron's agents actually carried this out. Maybe the same party of Orcs that helped waylay the Fellowship, maybe a few trolls with a trusted leader. Any number of other agents he had that we might not suspect or know about. The Nine were otherwise engaged, so it couldn't have been one or more of them.

EDIT: BTW - Radagast was not found by those who went searching for him. There was no mention of Rhosgobel being destroyed - so maybe not the trolls. Unless he was caught away from home or lured outside. Probably either of those happened whoever did it - since any sign of a struggle would have been mentioned.
__________________
My Fanfic:
Letters of Firiel

Tales of Nolduryon
Visitors Come to Court

Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™

[Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl]


Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!!
Valandil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2018, 05:17 PM   #3
Earniel
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
 
Earniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
Nooo, I need a live Radagast afterwards for fanfic and RPG reasons! Damn you, Saruman!

But if Radagast had been killed, wouldn't Gandalf at least have remarked on the murder when he broke Saruman's staff? Killing a member of your own order ought to have been a crime worth mentioning.
Earniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2018, 05:46 PM   #4
Valandil
High King at Annuminas Administrator
 
Valandil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
Would Gandalf know?

Maybe he was just out when the Elves came calling. Possible enough.

Or maybe he escaped from those sent to kill him, if that was the case. See there - I could even ENHANCE your fanfic opportunities?
__________________
My Fanfic:
Letters of Firiel

Tales of Nolduryon
Visitors Come to Court

Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™

[Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl]


Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!!
Valandil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2018, 07:32 PM   #5
Alcuin
Salt Miner
 
Alcuin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gone to Far Harad
Posts: 987
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eärniel View Post
But if Radagast had been killed, wouldn't Gandalf at least have remarked on the murder when he broke Saruman's staff? Killing a member of your own order ought to have been a crime worth mentioning.
…and…
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valandil View Post
Would Gandalf know?
Surely Gandalf the White would know if Saruman had sunk to such wickedness. Perfidy is one thing, outright murder another. But maybe he didn’t know, or didn’t mention it in order to effect Saruman’s redemption, if possible.

Tolkien is careful never to tell the reader anything except what the characters know. And of the characters, he only lets us see things from the perspective of one character at a time: Frodo, Sam, Pippin, Gimli. Except in The Fellowship of the Ring where we see all things from Frodo’s perspective, the character from whose view we see the story is always the weakest in the group. Only once are we given a brief glance into the mind of Aragorn, at Amon Hen: only from his perspective can we see that small but important section of the story; as soon as Legolas and Gimli find Aragorn weeping beside Boromir’s body, the story centers on Gimli’s perspective. (Note, too, that there is no narrator. Oh, and there is the talking fox!)

If Saruman captured or killed Radagast, but kept it secret, I don’t think we readers would ever know.

I suppose we cannot discount the possibility that upon learning war between Sauron and the West was once more about to commence, Radagast chickened out and fled. That would be total abnegation of his responsibility, and at the presumed end of his labors. We readers would not know of that, either, unless Gandalf or another of the Wise told us. But it would account for Tolkien’s assertion that Radagast “fell” when we know that at least when Gandalf met him near Bree, he still considered him “the honest Radagast.”

Surely Tolkien made some note about the fate of Radagast! Was he killed? Was he captured? Did he flee: was he a coward? If he isn’t puttering around in Birkenstocks in Amsterdam or Seattle, I’d like to know where he is.

But unless he fled immediately, forewarned perhaps by the Eagles, Saruman had to keep him quiet, had to render him harmless, and the only way to make certain of that was to eliminate him.
Alcuin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2018, 08:27 PM   #6
Valandil
High King at Annuminas Administrator
 
Valandil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
When Tolkien says that Radagast "fell" - I believe it was from his purpose of uniting those who would resist Sauron. He got distracted by his own passions and interests, and didn't remain true to the mission. This was likely for the duration of his time on Middle Earth, and didn't preclude him being "honest" in the sense in which Gandalf refers to him.
__________________
My Fanfic:
Letters of Firiel

Tales of Nolduryon
Visitors Come to Court

Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™

[Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl]


Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!!
Valandil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2018, 06:46 PM   #7
Valandil
High King at Annuminas Administrator
 
Valandil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
Because Radagast was a Maia, would Saruman need to have killed him personally? I wonder about it (and was discussing with Alcuin offline). I believe the Istari were subject to death by any means that could kill another mortal. Perhaps catching them unawares was the difficult part.

Saruman, of course, was eventually killed by Wormtongue. But... he was no longer all that he had been, was he?

When reading The Hobbit - I really feel like Gandalf was in as much mortal danger from the Wolves who had the treed, as were the Dwarves and Bilbo. Or was he not?

My concept is that Saruman would not have wanted to stray so far from home to do the job. Almost certainly not across the Anduin - where Sauron and his forces were more active.

Also - WOULD Saruman have asked Sauron to send someone to take out Radagast - or would he have wanted to do it without Sauron's knowledge?
__________________
My Fanfic:
Letters of Firiel

Tales of Nolduryon
Visitors Come to Court

Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™

[Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl]


Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!!
Valandil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2018, 11:16 PM   #8
Alcuin
Salt Miner
 
Alcuin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gone to Far Harad
Posts: 987
Elves and Men both killed Maiar. In the Fall of Gondolin, Rog, Ecthelion, and Glorfindel are all reported killing Balrogs, and it seems that some of Rog’s followers among the Folk of the Hammer of Wrath killed them, too, “a marvel and dread to the hosts of Melko, for ere that day never had any Balrogs been slain by the hand of Elves or Men,” in Book of Lost Tales II. In Lays of Beleriand, Thingol kills Boldog, an Umaia (fallen Maia) in the shape of an Orc. Gil-galad and Elendil, with the assistance of C*rdan, Elrond, and Isildur, killed Sauron, arguably the most powerful of all the Maiar: at least, they would have: the fact that the One Ring remained intact allowed Sauron to regroup because his power was not scattered, though it took him a long time.

So, yes, Elves, Men, and presumably Orcs or Wargs could kill a Wizard like Gandalf, Saruman, or Radagast. Tolkien specifically says they were “clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labors of many long years.” (Unfinished Tales, “Istari”)

Saruman’s best bet would have been to draw Radagast back to Isengard and there imprison or kill him; the problem with this is that the first instinct of Gwaihir the Windlord, the Eagle who rescued Gandalf from Orthanc, would surely be to report this incident to Radagast along with all Gandalf’s accusations against Saruman and the evidence Gwaihir himself discovered.

This brings up a difficult problem: Once Gwaihir reported Gandalf’s rescue to Radagast, then Radagast himself had reason to fear Saruman. Not only might Saruman seek to kill him, but Saruman and his alliance with Sauron were a threat to all Radagast valued, whether or not Radagast had fallen from his true mission. As soon as he learned this, Radagast should have set out for Lórien or Rivendell: Lórien would be closer to his regular haunts. No matter which of the remaining Wise he told, Saruman’s gambit would fail.

But Radagast told no one. Neither Elrond nor Galadriel were forewarned of Saruman’s treachery.

Saruman might be able to find Radagast using his palant*r. Gandalf apparently could not be found this way: Galadriel said that “a grey mist is about him, and the ways of his feet and of his mind are hidden from me.” Perhaps this was one of Gandalf’s defenses against discovery. If Radagast were not so careful, he might be found this way.

Saruman had to meet Sauron in the palant*r after he dismissed the Nazgûl at the gate of Isengard. The Witch-king would report his words and instructions to Sauron sooner or later: the sooner Saruman presented his side of the story, the better. If he knew where Radagast was, or where he was likely going, it was an easy step in the same direction to betray a fellow Wizard whom he already detested, digging deeper the hole he was already in.

I don’t know how Saruman dispatched Radagast. But it becomes clearer and clearer that he wanted to: in his degraded state of mind, he needed to. And he had to act quickly, without hesitation, or Radagast like Gandalf might escape.
Alcuin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2018, 08:56 AM   #9
Earniel
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
 
Earniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valandil View Post
Would Gandalf know?
Gandalf the Grey might not but I doubt that Gandalf the White wouldn't have. At the very least I can't help but feel he would have at least bothered enough to find out what had happened to Radagast, especially since he was then other last remaining member of his order. There was time enough between the last battle and his departure from Middle-earth to see old friends. Someone, somewhere must have known something. The Eagles for starters, Radagast had asked them to bring news to Gandalf in Orthanc and it was Gwaihir himself that went. That ought to mean something.

Quote:
Or maybe he escaped from those sent to kill him, if that was the case. See there - I could even ENHANCE your fanfic opportunities?
How he survives is of no real importance, I just need him alive at the start of the Fourth Age or I can go and rewrite my original fanfic of Long Lost Leaves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alcuin View Post
Surely Gandalf the White would know if Saruman had sunk to such wickedness. Perfidy is one thing, outright murder another. But maybe he didn’t know, or didn’t mention it in order to effect Saruman’s redemption, if possible.
But is there any redemption to be had after a deliberate execution of one of his own order? It is possible that Gandalf didn't know at the time he broke Saruman's staff, and that was the last time they met. But surely he could have learned afterwards and I cannot help but feel Gandalf would at least have said something about Radagast's fate if it was a tragic one.

Quote:
I suppose we cannot discount the possibility that upon learning war between Sauron and the West was once more about to commence, Radagast chickened out and fled. That would be total abnegation of his responsibility, and at the presumed end of his labors. We readers would not know of that, either, unless Gandalf or another of the Wise told us. But it would account for Tolkien’s assertion that Radagast “fell” when we know that at least when Gandalf met him near Bree, he still considered him “the honest Radagast.”
Gandalf still considered him honest at the time of the Council of Elrond. At that moment Gandalf also says during his imprisonment on Orthanc he had at first thought that Radagast had fallen, here used (as far as I can tell) in the sense that Radagast had chosen Saruman's side. Gandalf goes on to indicate that that was probably what Saruman wanted him to think.

But neither Gandalf or Saruman seemed to think that Radagast would. Gandalf called him too honest; Saruman, a fool with precious little wit. Saruman certainly never offered the chance to rule to Radagast, but he did do so to Gandalf. Gandalf was a threat to Saruman, in way that Radagast never would be. Gandalf was the one who either had to be convinced to play along, or taken out of play immediately, as Saruman tried.

Saruman doesn't think much of Radagast, that much is obvious. If Radagast had posed any danger to him at that time, you can bet Radagast would have been up there on Orthanc with Gandalf lickitysplit. Saruman had ample time to plan that far ahead. It wouldn't have taken much effort either. And if Saruman had any plans to have dealt with Radagast permanently, he probably would have used that as a threat to persuade Gandalf.

There is also no moment after his escape that Gandalf fears for Radagasts well-being. Also when the scouts from Elrond do not find him in his old home of Rhosgobel, does this not appear to cause any concern. Nor is it made clear that the scouts were there specifically to encounter Radagast, and not just because it lay on their scouting route.

It appears neither Saruman or Gandalf had any use for Radagast, nor any concern beyond that point, which is probably what he himself liked best. Nor does Radagast himself appear to take any initiative after learning of Saruman's betrayal, which he ought to have learned soon enough from the Eagles. He doesn't even obviously disappear, he just... goes without mention.

After this part, I remember no more mention of Radagast at all. I dare say that as far as Radagast is concerned, no news is good news. But if there had been any news to be had --perhaps bad i.o.w. if Radagast had been killed, by Saruman's command or otherwise; or good as in Radagast joining in the defense of any of the north-eastern realms or in the destruction of Dul Guldur, I daresay if would have been worthy of recalling somewhere.

So that is my opinion: if anything of note, good or bad, had happened to Radagast after his stage-exit after sending Gandalf to Orthanc it would have been noted. Perhaps even just in the appendices, after all we only learn of the simultaneous assaults on Lórien, Mirkwood and Dale there, as well as the deaths of Da*n and Brand. These do not, as far as I know, occur in the story itself but were noteworthy enough to be listed in the appendices. So too, IMO, would news of Radagast.

Quote:
But unless he fled immediately, forewarned perhaps by the Eagles, Saruman had to keep him quiet, had to render him harmless, and the only way to make certain of that was to eliminate him.
Unless, he was considered harmless enough already. It would have been otherwise easy enough to waylay the unassuming Radagast as he travelled back to Mirkwood. His home was known. But he wasn't attacked then because he had time to comply with Gandalf's request to enlist the help of any creature Radagast knew.

Although, thinking upon it, it is striking that as a servant of Yavánna, Radagast concern is entirely with the animals, he does not seem to have any real connection with the Ents. Treebeard doesn't mention him at all, but he does know both Saruman and Gandalf. But that is probably another discussion.

Quote:
Also - WOULD Saruman have asked Sauron to send someone to take out Radagast - or would he have wanted to do it without Sauron's knowledge?
I doubt the relationship between Saruman and Sauron allowed for that sort of thing. Saruman probably didn't want to share that much information of his own dealings with Sauron anyhow. As far as Sauron was concerned, this thing was a one-way deal in which Saruman served Sauron, not the other way around.

Quote:
But Radagast told no one. Neither Elrond nor Galadriel were forewarned of Saruman’s treachery.
That all depends of timing. If Gwaihir informed Radagast, Gwaihir himself may also have informed others by his own volition or Radagast's. But by that time Gandalf himself may already have passed on the news. It also remains to be seen how well Radagast was connected to the Eldar. Did he even know who to inform? Gwaihir at least knew Galadriel, it was at her request that he set out to locate Gandalf after his fall in Mória.
Earniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2018, 09:31 AM   #10
Valandil
High King at Annuminas Administrator
 
Valandil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
Crazy, after all this to-do, but I'm having second thoughts.

It might not have been so imperative for Saruman to kill Radagast after all. After all - with Gandalf's escape, his cover was blown. Saruman would now be known for who he was.

Maybe he WOULD make an attempt to lure him back to Isengard (and this DOES make sense as the best way for Saruman to go about taking him out - neither going to Rhosgobel himself or sending an agent (crossing the Anduin into that territory could have placed him at risk) or trying to get Sauron to do the job. And if he made some sort of attempt to lure him back - Radagast might well have left Rhosgobel. Then again - if he was successful in the attempt - Radagast may have gone to Isengard anyway.

What else accounts for Radagast's absence though? Did he, upon learning of Saruman's betrayal (possibly soon - from Gwaihir), spread the word to the creatures he cared so much about, especially any who might be likely to suffer in the days to come?

It IS curious that he doesn't seem to have much connection with the Ents. Or else, maybe he does, but Treebeard sees no reason to mention him in the same breath as Saruman and Gandalf. He WAS a different kind of Wizard. Might he seem to Treebeard as not even a Wizard at all? And Treebeard was not one to spill all his thoughts when speaking anyway.
__________________
My Fanfic:
Letters of Firiel

Tales of Nolduryon
Visitors Come to Court

Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™

[Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl]


Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!!
Valandil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2018, 03:23 AM   #11
Alcuin
Salt Miner
 
Alcuin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gone to Far Harad
Posts: 987
Then we’re still left with “what became of Radagast?” Some possibilities:
  1. He’s dead. Maybe Saruman et alia killed him, or he fell off a moonbeam: he’s dead.
  2. He ran away from home. Whether he returned or not might be material to Eärniel’s story, but not to Tolkien’s story.
  3. He just wasn’t home when Elrond’s messengers arrived. Whether he returned or not might be material to Eärniel’s story, but still not to Tolkien’s story.
  4. Something else besides 1, 2, or 3, not material to Tolkien’s story. (Suggestions welcome!)
  5. He’s just a dangling loose end, still not material to Tolkien’s story.
Maybe he’s helping the Beornings and Woodmen of Mirkwood during the War of the Ring. It’s conceivable he misled or confused Sauron’s forces in the forest.

It does seem like there should be a note on Radagast’s fate somewhere in Tolkien’s papers, but I’ve not heard mention of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valandil View Post
It might not have been so imperative for Saruman to kill Radagast after all. After all - with Gandalf's escape, his cover was blown. Saruman would now be known for who he was.
Even so, Gandalf spoke to Théoden on 20 September 3018, two days after his escape from Orthanc. From then until he spoke to Théoden again in company with Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli on 2 March 3019, 164 days passed, almost 5½ months. Théoden not only failed to react to Saruman, under the influence of Wormtongue he arrested and imprisoned Éomer, then sat moribund while his son and heir Théodred was killed in battle by Saruman’s forces. His lethargy is to the credit of Gr*ma Wormtongue; nevertheless, Saruman’s cover was “blown,” as you eloquently put it, and no one did anything about it.

Doubtless Elrond learned of Saruman’s treachery soon after Gandalf reached Rivendell on 18 October 3018, four weeks after Gandalf spoke to Théoden about it. The Council of Elrond, including Gildor of Lindon, did not learn about Saruman for another week; and if (as seems likely) it took about two weeks for Elrond’s messengers to reach Lórien, Galadriel and Celeborn did not find out until almost mid-November, nearly two months after Gwaihir the Eagle plucked Gandalf from Saruman’s claws, unless Gwaihir informed them.

In fact, no one did anything about Saruman until Gandalf the White confronted him in Isengard on 5 March 3019. Only Théoden accused Saruman of specific misdeeds: the deaths of his son Théoden, of Hama, chief of his household guard, and of the women and children of Westfold; and attempting to usurp the rule of Rohan to himself.

In contrast, Gandalf’s reproach of Saruman is not detailed. He did tell him that he kept “a clear… memory of your arguments, and deeds,” that “your neighbors you have made your enemies; and you have cheated your new master, or tried to do so.” But his chief accusation immediately precedes his breaking Saruman’s staff: “You might still have turned away from folly and evil, and have been of service. But you choose to stay and gnaw the ends of your old plots.” Never once does Gandalf detail specific charges against Saruman: his primary purposes seem to have been
  1. to redeem Saruman, if possible;
  2. to “disarm” him, if he would not repent, apparently depriving him of many of his powers, perhaps by breaking his wizard’s staff; and
  3. to cast him from the order of the Istari, which may just be restating the second reason.
Gandalf could have accused Saruman of all manner of wickedness: mixing Men and Orcs, maybe even killing Radagast or trying to, if he did; but the two specific reasons Gandalf gives for punishing Saruman are clinging to folly and evil, and rejecting repentance. For want of a better phrase: willful moral turpitude.

At best, Radagast remains a loose end. I still think Saruman sought to kill him. If he did, I don’t know that Gandalf would mention it at Orthanc.
Alcuin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2018, 01:25 PM   #12
Earniel
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
 
Earniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valandil View Post
Crazy, after all this to-do, but I'm having second thoughts.
Heh. One's allowed to change one's mind in a discussion.

Quote:
Maybe he WOULD make an attempt to lure him back to Isengard (and this DOES make sense as the best way for Saruman to go about taking him out - neither going to Rhosgobel himself or sending an agent (crossing the Anduin into that territory could have placed him at risk) or trying to get Sauron to do the job. And if he made some sort of attempt to lure him back - Radagast might well have left Rhosgobel. Then again - if he was successful in the attempt - Radagast may have gone to Isengard anyway.
While Saruman had the habit to go wandering about in Rohan (as on the occasion Gimli, Aragorn and Legolas saw him and came close to braining Gandalf when he showed up the next day in a similar fashion), he probably not went as far as Mirkwood. Saruman had no steed like Shadowfax and Mirkwood is far away from Isengard.

There is no mention of how Saruman contacted Radagast in the beginning and commanded him to find and send Gandalf to Isengard. But if he had use of the Crebain from Fangorn and Dunland as messengers he no doubt could have communicated with Radagast as much as he liked. (Although I remember the Crebain watching and spying the lands near the Fellowship, I don't recall that in the books it is implied they spied for Saruman, unlike in the movies. So maybe that point is, well, pointless.)

Quote:
What else accounts for Radagast's absence though? Did he, upon learning of Saruman's betrayal (possibly soon - from Gwaihir), spread the word to the creatures he cared so much about, especially any who might be likely to suffer in the days to come?
While Radagast does not seem to have the wandering spirit of Gandalf, it is said nowhere that Rhosgobel was his permanent nor only abode. In fact, there are two mentions at least that his home had once been at Rhosgobel, i.o.w. it is not so at the time of the Fellowship. Then it shouldn't be so strange that Radagast was not at Rhosgobel, whether he was by then informed of Saruman's treachery or not.

It would also be interesting to know whether Radagast at this point in the story was already considered to have abandoned his mission, as 'the Istari'-essay in UT tells us he would eventually. But the essay does, as far as I know, not give a timeframe when he does so. If he had already lost interest in opposing Sauron when he seeks out Gandalf, the danger he posed to Saruman would have been greatly diminished. What would Saruman have to fear of a bird-tamer enamoured with beast and herbs with no regard to the fate of nations and people? Nothing, that's what.

Quote:
It IS curious that he doesn't seem to have much connection with the Ents. Or else, maybe he does, but Treebeard sees no reason to mention him in the same breath as Saruman and Gandalf. He WAS a different kind of Wizard. Might he seem to Treebeard as not even a Wizard at all? And Treebeard was not one to spill all his thoughts when speaking anyway.
I don't know. Apart from his name, Treebeard talks and shares a lot of information. He talks about wizards, knows even where they came from and that it's not just Gandalf and Saruman. It would make sense to at least namedrop Radagast at that point?

But... he also calls Gandalf "the only wizard interested in trees". So maybe there's my answer: Treebeard may know of Radagast, but Radagast just isn't into trees and therefor of little consequence to Treebeard and thus not worth mentioning.

I had a look into what was said about Radagast and while birds and beasts are named often in connection to them, there's only one mention I found connected to plants and that was only herbs. Perhaps even his early name 'Aiwendil' should have been an indication. Clearly the evidence points to Radagast's field of interest not completely overlapping with his patron Vala.

EDITTED TO ADD: Now that I think about it, if Radagast had cared about trees and had been pals with Treebeard, this would have spelled quite a few plotting issues for Tolkien to have the events between Isengard, Fangorn and Rohan go as he wanted to. Perhaps this was a plot that was best without one more wizard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alcuin View Post
[*]He’s just a dangling loose end, still not material to Tolkien’s story.
I think that is what describes Radagast best, IMO, he's a loose end but a tiny one.

In a way it's odd because Tolkien was into tying up loose ends in the final parts of LoTR. What isn't resolved in the story proper, gets a send-off of a sort in the appendices. Other figures at least have some material on them in other writing. Radagast gets even a speaking part in LoTR but elsewhere he rates barely above the Blue Wizards and they are a mere detail (an interesting one, rife with fanfic possibilities, mind but still but a detail.)

Radagast either completely slipped Tolkien's mind or he always was more of disposable plot-device to get an unsuspecting Gandalf into Saruman's clutches rather than character that deserved closure.

Quote:
His lethargy is to the credit of Gr*ma Wormtongue; nevertheless, Saruman’s cover was “blown,” as you eloquently put it, and no one did anything about it.

[...]In fact, no one did anything about Saruman until Gandalf the White confronted him in Isengard on 5 March 3019. Only Théoden accused Saruman of specific misdeeds: the deaths of his son Théoden, of Hama, chief of his household guard, and of the women and children of Westfold; and attempting to usurp the rule of Rohan to himself.
I think us coming from a world rife with unions, federations and global treaties often overlook the absense of such things in Middle-earth's Third Age. There is but a handful of nations and peoples, almost all declining and all isolated and isolationary. There's no large overlooking organisation that deals with diplomacy or justice. Barely any nation has an actual ally nearby. The White Council contained only the Eldar states (not even the Silvan Elves) lasted but a few centuries and was already as good as defunct but a few years after the Battle of the Five Armies. They had no mandate, no unity, no consensus with Saruman effectively sabotaging them in the end, no power over anything but their separate domains. But aside from them whoever in Middle-earth even had the skill to look at the whole picture?

Even the Council of Elrond has all the makings of a one-time affair. And it is to do with one specific issue: what to do with the Ring. It isn't even really about stopping Sauron and creating World Peace, it's just that they don't want him to get the Ring (or anyone else, really).

So to pull this back to the original topic: If Radagast knowing or not knowing about Saruman's true motives mattered so little (because even when Gandalf shared this information with everybody precious little changed), why would Saruman even bother eliminating Radagast?
Earniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2018, 03:24 PM   #13
Valandil
High King at Annuminas Administrator
 
Valandil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eärniel View Post
Heh. One's allowed to change one's mind in a discussion.
I suppose. Never seems to happen on the internet though. Certainly not on Facebook!

Quote:
There is no mention of how Saruman contacted Radagast in the beginning and commanded him to find and send Gandalf to Isengard. But if he had use of the Crebain from Fangorn and Dunland as messengers he no doubt could have communicated with Radagast as much as he liked. (Although I remember the Crebain watching and spying the lands near the Fellowship, I don't recall that in the books it is implied they spied for Saruman, unlike in the movies. So maybe that point is, well, pointless.)
I think they WERE spying for Saruman. I don't think Sauron had a great amount of spies so far away from Mordor. We don't see the crebain - or other birds - continue to hound the fellowship after their trip through Moria, when they're closer to Sauron's sphere of influence. So I concur that they're Saruman's spies.

Quote:
In a way it's odd because Tolkien was into tying up loose ends in the final parts of LoTR. What isn't resolved in the story proper, gets a send-off of a sort in the appendices. Other figures at least have some material on them in other writing. Radagast gets even a speaking part in LoTR but elsewhere he rates barely above the Blue Wizards and they are a mere detail (an interesting one, rife with fanfic possibilities, mind but still but a detail.)

Radagast either completely slipped Tolkien's mind or he always was more of disposable plot-device to get an unsuspecting Gandalf into Saruman's clutches rather than character that deserved closure.
Or... maybe he WASN'T a loose end anymore, because Saruman had killed him.
__________________
My Fanfic:
Letters of Firiel

Tales of Nolduryon
Visitors Come to Court

Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™

[Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl]


Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!!
Valandil is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Did Saruman Know Aragorn - or Know OF Him? Valandil Lord of the Rings Books 3 06-27-2015 12:32 PM
They'd never say that! (part 2) jammi567 Middle Earth 126 01-17-2014 06:03 PM
Saruman'a actions in summer 3018 Gordis Lord of the Rings Books 26 10-08-2008 05:34 PM
Why did Saruman attack Rohan? Gordis Lord of the Rings Books 18 11-07-2007 09:18 PM
Was Saruman a Ring-bearer? Valandil Lord of the Rings Books 23 08-20-2004 04:10 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:18 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) 1997-2019, The Tolkien Trail