LOTR re-read :)

[Rían]

Sheesh, I thought cancer was hard! I've now been NED (no evidence of disease) for 5 months. You think I might have like, maybe, an easier year this year, but NO! *sigh* We've had some really, REALLY hard extended family issues come up that are dragging us in and are really difficult and painful.

We're getting some good help to deal with it, and it's going to take some time, and it reminded me of the story of a certain long and difficult journey that we are all very familiar with ... so I decided to do a re-read (I also decided to start writing in Tengwar again because that's such a fun thing and I can write all sorts of things down when I'm frustrated and no one will ever know what I said ) Anyway, I thought I'd start a thread on it and see if any of my Moot friends would like to join in Hope to see some of you guys here!

[Alcuin]

I’m in.

[Valandil]

Maybe so... it's sure been awhile. I might to my traditional re-read of The Hobbit first - so don't get too far ahead of me.

[Rían]

Hooray, Alcuin and Val! Val, sounds good - I want to move slowly anyway and really dig deep. I'll check the front door and see if my book got here (I ordered a new copy because my old 3-book paperback set is so old and decrepit that I don't want to damage it anymore)

My wonderful daughter, who was my chemo-buddy last year through all those difficult treatments and hospital stays and blood transfusions and things, is going to do the re-read with me, too. I'll check with my daughter and see if she wants to start with the Hobbit, too, but if she's fine either way, I think I'd like to start with LOTR. I did a re-read of the Hobbit last year, and frankly, I think LOTR is more where I'm at right now. I'll let you guys know

[Rían]

aaaand ... our journey begins

(we are starting with FOTR, not Hobbit - join in when you're ready, Val )

ground rules - none! Enjoy in your own way, including bringing in the movie, which was important to many Mooters, including myself, although in this thread, we all agree that the book REIGNS SUPREME AND ANYONE THAT SEZ ELSEWAY WILL GET THROWN TO THE BALROGS and er, is the source of highest authority

I know that sometimes there is a religious/non-religious divide here, and some prefer the former and some the latter, but we are very openminded and tolerant here which I wish the world would copy and I think it will be just fine. In fact, I think it will enrich the discussion to have different POVs. I am deeply Christian, as was Tolkien, and will definitely be sharing along those lines sometimes, especially because, as I said, I'm going through a very hard time. Let's be sure to respect both POVs here

[Rían]

As I opened to the first chapter, I found that I couldn't remember the opening line! Frankly, though, it's almost impossible to beat the opening line of the Hobbit, which IMHO is absolutely brilliant!! But here it is :

When Mr. Bilbo Baggins of Bag End announced that he would shortly be celebrating his eleventy-first birthday with a party of special magnificence, there was much talk and excitement in Hobbiton.

(Which for some reason brings to mind what I found out today - the parents of Kate Middleton, Dutchess of Cambridge (and future non-reigning Queen of England) live in ... Bucklebury!! )

Could this first line have been better, or is it just me? However, I love love love the rest of the first section, ending with "It isn't natural, and trouble will come of it!"

I also love all the parenthetical asides he puts in - they add to the humor so much; kind of like JRRT was looking away from the book at you and winking at something funny

I like how Tolkien says that Bilbo "had many devoted admirers among the hobbits of poor and unimportant families". Clearly, as was laid out in more detail a bit later, Bilbo was very generous, especially to those in need.

I like how Bilbo took Frodo in - just like hey, I'll adopt you so that we can celebrate our birthdays together easier. Nice and comfortable and making it no big deal. So far, mostly still in the tone of the Hobbit, but just a tad bit more formal.

And that's the end of my journey for tonight; bed for me! As the Hobbits sang at the beginning of their journey, "And then to bed!"

Oh, one more thing - I found that at my first few reads, I kind of skipped over the songs, but now I really appreciate them. Anyone else the same way?

Goodnight all!

[Earniel]

Still got something else on my reading pile so I'll join you lot maybe a while later.

[Valandil]

I'm actually finishing something else too - before I start "The Hobbit". Whole different book: "The Prince" by Machiavelli. I had it as a textbook for a college course but never read it. Getting to it now. Pretty ... interesting!

However - also wanted to mention that I started some threads about three years ago that are still on this first page. Maybe that was the time of my last re-read. I see about four of them. Shall I *bump* as we get to those parts? All are from pretty early in the book.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Valandil

I'm actually finishing something else too - before I start "The Hobbit". ... I started some threads about three years ago that are still on this first page. Maybe that was the time of my last re-read. I see about four of them. Shall I *bump* as we get to those parts? All are from pretty early in the book.

Yes, please bump them.

I’ve just completed re-reading The Hobbit. I need to write and post an essay before I begin Fellowship of the Ring; I’ll try to complete that this week. So I’ll be a laggard, too.

A thought has been burning in my mind for many months now, though: the Forward says,

Three Elf-towers of immemorial age were still to be seen on the Tower Hills beyond the western marches. They shone far off in the moonlight. The tallest was furthest away, standing alone upon a green mound. The Hobbits of the Westfarthing said that one could see the Sea from the lop of that tower; but no Hobbit had ever been known to climb it.

Those towers were built by Gil-galad, either for Elendil or given to him upon his arrival in Middle-earth. The tallest one was where the last of the palantÃ*ri of Arnor was kept, the one that looked upon Avallónë in Tol Eressëa. I think Elendil used it to communicate with his father, Amandil, and with the Elven friends of the Lords of Andúnië who gave Amandil the palantÃ*ri; after he died, no Dúnadan used it again, but the Eldar made pilgrimages to look into it: Gildor Inglorion and his companions who met Frodo, Sam, and Pippin in the Woody End just as the Nazgûl (Khamûl) overtook and was about to capture them, had just returned from such a pilgrimage; Tolkien indicates they had seen a vision of Elbereth Gilthoniel in the palantÃ*r.

After the departure of Elrond and most of the remaining Eldar, that strip of land was empty and the towers unguarded. At Sam’s request (probably more as a suggestion to the King) as Mayor of the Shire, they were added to the Shire, and Sam’s son-in-law, Elanor’s husband Fastred of Greenholm, was made Warden of Westmarch. I believe the towers then fell under his care. I imagine he was given the keys to the towers – and I also think it quite possible that after Sam left Middle-earth following the death of Rose, his wife, that Elanor climbed the tower to look into the West, where her beloved father had gone.

Just a little imagination.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Yes, please bump them.
:
:
:

But later I thought, "Really - this whole FORUM is full of threads inspired by reading through LOTR. So that would be a little ego-centric of me."

I'll join you on that Tower discussion. I think it's left ambiguous enough that Elendil could have built them. And while it's clear Elendil himself looked into the palantir of Elostirion, I don't see any reason why none of his heirs would have also done it. However - I don't think they'd be as fixated on it as he was. Maybe once each - out of curiosity - until too much Middle Earth pulled them away from it (just as RL does that to us). So you think Amandil was still alive - living in Elvenhome?

I have wondered if Elendil's wife had passed away - either in Numenor or on the journey - and if he used the palantir to look into his past there.

One passage or sentence someplace indicates to me that each palantir had a Warden assigned to keep it. I think this was likely so of the stone at Elostirion as well.

This surely deserves a thread.

Have you ever seen my thread about Elendil watching for Gil-galad at Amon Sul? Forget whether you contributed there.

[Alcuin]

Yes, this probably requires its own thread. And I probably need to finish the essay I began on it years ago.

Originally Posted by Valandil

Have you ever seen my thread about Elendil watching for Gil-galad at Amon Sul? Forget whether you contributed there.

Yes, I did: “Elendil on Amon Sul�. I asked who would watch a good football game on television when he could have the best seat in the stadium to see it with his own eyes? I think once Gil-galad and his army came in sight, Elendil went out first to see them with his own eyes, and then down to meet them personally.

Originally Posted by Valandil

I think it's left ambiguous enough that Elendil could have built them. And while it's clear Elendil himself looked into the palantir of Elostirion, I don't see any reason why none of his heirs would have also done it.

Footnote 16 in “The PalantÃ*riâ€� in Unfinished Tales says,

One [palantÃ*r] only remained in the North, the Elendil Stone on Emyn Beraid, but this was one of special properties, and not employable in communications. Hereditary right to use it would no doubt still reside in the “heir of Isildur,â€� the recognized chieftain of the Dúnedain… But it is not known whether any of them, including Aragorn, ever looked into it... This Stone and its tower were maintained and guarded by CÃ*rdan and the Elves of Lindon. [Author’s note.] – It is told in Appendix A (I, iii) to The Lord of the Rings that the palantÃ*r of Emyn Beraid “was unlike the others and not in accord with them; it looked only to the Sea. Elendil set it there so that he could look back with ‘straight sight’ and see Eressëa in the vanished West…â€� Elendil’s vision of Eressëa in the palantÃ*r of Emyn Beraid is told of also in “Of the Rings of Powerâ€� (The Silmarillion …); “it is believed that thus he would at whiles see far away even the Tower of Avallónë upon Eressëa, where the Master-stone abode, and yet abides.â€� …

The palantÃ*ri were gifts of the Eldar of Tol Eressëa to Amandil, Elendil’s father and last Lord of Andúnië, when the persecution of Ar-Gimilkhâd became so severe that the Eldar could no longer risk sailing to Númenor even in secret. That indicates the initial reason for the gift was so that the House of Valandil of Andúnië could remain in contact with their friends in Tol Eressëa. (It might also be the source of the coronation name of Gimilkhâd’s elder son and successor: Tar-PalantÃ*r.)

You are correct, Valandil, in saying that nothing excludes Elendil’s successors from ever looking into the Emyn Beraid (Elostirion) stone; but I seem to remember reading that was the case. When Elrond left Middle-earth, he took it with him (probably with Aragorn’s permission, though maybe not), forever severing communication between Middle-earth and the Uttermost West.

And yes, I do think Amandil and his faithful servant made it to Eldamar or Tol Eressëa to beg the Valar to spare the Faithful Númenóreans: I cannot prove it, but I think we can attribute the escape of Elendil and his sons and seven ships of followers from the wreck of Númenor to Amandil’s embassy. Afterwards, it was not possible for Amandil to return to walk among mortal Men, since the Straight Road was available only to the Elves; but they could not kill him. I think he lived out the rest of his days in Tol Eressëa with the exiled Noldor, and was buried there; and I believe that an age of the world later, Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, and Gimli did, too. Amandil should have lived about 60 years beyond the Downfall of Númenor, long enough for Elendil either to speak to him or get word of him. In any event, Elendil would have kept communication with the Eldar of Tol Eressëa – he was no doubt under instruction from his father, who received the palantÃ*ri from them, to do so; and Gil-galad and the other Eldar, especially the exiled Noldor of Middle-earth, might have used it for that purpose, too.

Which brings us to a final point in this rambling post: If Amandil felt he had to break the Ban of the Valar and sail to Eldamar to speak to the Valar, why could he not do so simply through the palantÃ*ri? Their original purpose was to maintain communication between Númenor and Tol Eressëa. I think the answer must be that either the Valar refused to treat with him directly through the seeing-stones or indirectly through his friends and allies among the Eldar, or else they rebuffed him outright. His plan to sail to Valinor must be seen for what it was: utterly desperate, with little hope of success in his arrival, his admittance, or his pleas.

[Valandil]

When I say that it's ambiguous enough that Elendil could have built them - I refer to the three towers, not the palantiri.

[Rían]

Finishing up with chapter 1 -

It continues to amaze me that having read LOTR so many times, I can still re-read it with such great enjoyment and knowing that I'll find new things still. It's just such a deep, detailed work.

I love the Gaffer's comment "If that's being queer, then we could do with a bit more queerness in these parts." because it shows again Bilbo's great generosity of character, especially towards the poor, and the Gaffer's value of this generosity above someone being somewhat "strange" according to hobbit standards.

The day before the party when it clouded over - "Anxiety was intense." Just such fun understated humor! "We may not get our food!!!"

I like how they talk about the fireworks - amazing descriptions! and he's so clever with names, like "goblin barkers"

I like when Bilbo leaves the Shire, and JRRT says "and he was never seen by any hobbit in Hobbiton again" - these little "warnings" he gives us that this story will be more serious than the Hobbit ...

I love how the old dwarf cloak and hood are so precious to Bilbo - "They had been locked up as if they were very precious, but they were so patched and weather stained that their original colour could hardly be guessed". I think we all have things like that - their value is what they stand for, not how much they are "worth" in mere money.

Comparing Bilbo and Frodo as Bilbo leaves - Bilbo was ready to go, but Frodo wasn't. Yet Bilbo wasn't ready to go on his journey in the Hobbit. Interesting how it was different...

I wondered - what were Bilbo's biggest inducements to give up the ring? He didn't like how it was affecting him? Gandalf's advice? I think it was the former, but strengthened by the latter. But when it came to the actual giving up the ring, I think B's trust and love of G is what enabled him to actually do it. So interesting that B thought he actually DID leave the envelope to Frodo, but it was in his pocket still ... do you think he actually believed he left it? I do. The ring is so deceptive!!

I love how Gandalf loves Bilbo and Frodo. He seems a very loving (if rather gruff!) guy - such a contrast with Sauron and Saruman, who look at people as "how can they be useful to me?" I love that bit when G looks after B - " 'Goodbye, my dear Bilbo - until our next meeting!' he said softly and went back indoors."

Love the wheelbarrow removal of those who "inadvertently remained behind"

And a funny note - my kids first came across LOTR by my reading it to them on a long road trip. For many chapters, they thought "Merry" was "Mary" - i.e., a girl! They finally asked me "why does it say 'he' when the book talks about Mary?" I had to explain that it was "Merry", and he was a guy!

[Valandil]

Rian - how's the re-read progress going?

Alcuin - further thoughts on Elendil at the Elostirion Stone: I wonder if the palantiri prompt a compulsive reaction from humans, much like a computer screen or smart phone display of today. Was Elendil addicted? We know that his name basically means "Elf Friend" - and that he truly was an Elf Friend. Did he spend all his time friending every single Elf in Westernesse?

[Rían]

Val - it's going great! I'm quite a few chapters into it, but haven't had time to post - we're trying to get my daughter to graduate from high school. She's insanely smart, but has had terrible health problems the last two years, and misses more than half of school. This semester, she's missed 73 days so far! and she's taking AP classes! Thank God I'm a math minor so I can tutor her in Calculus, and classes are over next Wednesday, and I think she'll make it!!!

Things are a bit quieter today, so I'm hoping to post my chapter 2 thoughts. Both my daughter and I are definitely going thru Mordor right now!!

[Rían]

so sorry I haven't been able to post, but as of today, my daughter took her last 2 finals and got an A and a B, so we're looking at about a 99.999999 % chance of graduating Thursday! (I'm hoping there's not some stupid regulation we missed somehow). Talk about going thru Mordor! Anyway, I should know tomorrow for sure. I've been reading, but just haven't had time to post.

Looking forward to catching up here!!

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Valandil

…I wonder if the palantiri prompt a compulsive reaction from humans, much like a computer screen or smart phone display of today. Was Elendil addicted? We know that his name basically means "Elf Friend" - and that he truly was an Elf Friend. Did he spend all his time friending every single Elf in Westernesse? …

I don’t think they could be addictive. Tolkien says (in Unfinished Tales) that using a palantÃ*r was quite tiring, a side effect that probably discouraged overuse.

Gandalf told Pippin that “the Orthanc-stone so bent towards Barad-dûr that, if any save a will of adamant now looks into it, it will bear his mind and sight swiftly thitherâ€�. It sounds like just looking into it, with Sauron anxiously and impatiently awaiting an overdue report by an untrustworthy Saruman, meant that the user immediately saw Sauron, who seems to have kept the captured Ithil-stone close by; Aragorn initially met Sauron, too. The Ithil-stone and Anor-stone were in close alignment, too: that’s why the Stewards were reluctant to use their palantÃ*r after Minas Ithil fell.

As for the Elendil-stone, I suspect all the Arnor palantÃ*ri were left in Arnor when its army marched away. Elendil never looked into again, nor did Isildur. Any friendships and alliances meant to be maintained with that stone were broken with their deaths: Valandil of Annúminas never had the introductions and opportunities to meet the Eldar of Tol Eressëa who were so important to the Lords of Andúnië that both the Elves and the Númenóreans risked their lives to maintain them, not to mention the treasure the Eldar gave.

[Rían]

and praise God, my daughter graduated!!! We literally didn't know if she was going to graduate or not until 24 hours before the ceremony.

We are still slogging thru Mordor and are making some progress, though, but right as things start to look up, my mentally ill relative crops up again and makes more trouble. God help us! we sure need his help! And the chapter 2 title, Shadow of the Past, is particularly apt at this time. Little did I know when I first met her how much grief and destruction she would wreak But God in His wisdom and power knows how much to allow, and allows it for good, just like in LOTR. We are indeed walking in a dark story now and have been for a while, and all we can do is fight for good and right and trust in God.

CHAPTER TWO - The Shadow of the Past

Well, isn't that true! Things are definitely connected, and our actions have consequences, intended or otherwise. I like how Frodo continues to give parties for Bilbo's birthday. Kind of reminds me of Christian funerals, how it's so sad because we miss them here on earth, but there is still joy that they are out of suffering and we will see them again.

Does anyone else here get the wandering fever in the autumn, like Bilbo and Frodo? I wonder if that's somewhat universal. I know that I get the urge to spring-clean in the spring, but hmm ... maybe there is something about autumn, after a long, lazy summer, that makes you want to get up and going ...

Sam's love and longing for Elves ... what do you guys think that means?

I like that "once familiar tap on the study window" of Gandalf's. It's just such a wonderful sound - a familiar sound that means a loved friend is here!!!!

"Something always held [Gandalf] back" from consulting with Saruman - I wonder how often our hunches are right? I've learned to go with hunches, as long as I know they aren't harmful. I think God works with hunches sometimes.

Frodo - "I wish it need not have happened in my time" - whew, don't we all feel that about some hardship we face! And of course, Gandalf follows with one of the best lines in the book, IMHO - "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

Interesting how Gollum hates the Ring, as well as loves it. And how now he has no will left in the matter. And interesting how the Ring didn't "seek" an Orc, as Frodo suggested - sometimes more harm can be done through "better" people?

And we meet Aragorn here in this chapter. Just a brief mention - no idea of how much he will figure in the book (I wonder how much JRRT knew at this time?)

And another of the great motifs of the book here - Frodo: "What a pity that Bilbo did not stab that vile creature, when he had a chance!" And Gandalf's reply that it was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand, and he was well rewarded.

Interesting how actually seeing someone will help give you pity, as Gandalf said. It's easy to insulate ourselves against the sorrows of the world, but better to find out about them and see how we can help.

And ANOTHER of the great lines - "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."

And how Gandalf always hopes for people to change for the better.

Interesting how Gandalf is not the best candidate for the Ringbearer. He's an obvious choice, but we are all gifted in different ways, and sometimes the "little guy" is a lot more "powerful" than we can see. We each need to be who God made us, and not try to be like someone else. We need to be the best us, and not a second-rate (or worse!) someone else!

[brownjenkins]

The Shadow of the Past is the chapter that truly hooked me on Tolkien! I think I was in third grade at the time. I think I have to do a re-read now. It's been a while!

[ringbearer]

I have also started probably my 27th re-read...gets better each time!