Whatever happened to Radaghast?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

Are you saying you think he never returned to Valinor? Or just that he stayed in M.E. longer than Gandalf after Sauron's fall?

The ship Gandalf, Galadriel, and Frodo took wasn't the last, btw. Legolas, Celeborn, and some would say Gimli and Sam all sailed west, too, at some point.

Quite true, but it is not said that he was on that ship either. I don't believe he never returned to Valinor, he must have at some point, IMO. He was a Maia and had the right to go there, I think, in body or in spirit (if killed), unless banned, like Saruman and Sauron.
I don't think Radagast deserved to be banned.

[Galin]

There's this in UT:

Wilt thou learn the lore that was long secret
of the Five that came from a far country?
Only one returned. Others never again
under Men's dominion Middle-earth shall seek
until Dagor Dagorath and the Doom cometh.
...

[Gordis]

Bravo, Galin!

[Valandil]

My best guess is that if Radagast returned to Valinor, it was in spirit only - not aboard a ship.

Before the fellowship went out from Rivendell, scouts were sent in all different directions. I believe some went to Rhosgobel, looking for Radagast, but found no trace of him (found it - fourth page of "The Ring Goes South" in my edition). Radagast was a true 'home body' and was last observed headed for home - when he parted with Gandalf after giving him the message to go to Orthanc.

I suspect Saruman of 'foul play' - once Radagast had served his purpose of drawing in Gandalf. Or - at least after Gandalf escaped, suspecting him of direct aid, rather than indirect aid. Or even - questioning him and finding out enough to learn that Gandalf was able to contrive an escape through Radagast's arrangements. Or - there could have been a party waiting to get rid of him once he returned from running his errand, before Gandalf escaped anyway.

Then I think Saruman 'did him in'. He would have wanted no more of his interference.

(I wonder if Olmer suspects the Elven 'scouts' who were sent to Rhosgobel )

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Valandil

I think Saruman 'did him in'. He would have wanted no more of his interference.

WOW, Val, congrats on your conspiracy theory!

Wel, well, it seems quite possible, Ladies and Gentlemen. Saruman certainly had the motive and the means to kill Radagast.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Valandil

My best guess is that if Radagast returned to Valinor, it was in spirit only - not aboard a ship.

I agree with this. I will admit that it never occurred to me that Saruman might have had him killed. But, when you think about it, after the Eagle rescued Gandalf, a parenoid like Saruman would certainly have suspected some involvement by Radaghast, and could have dispatched some solf-riders to Rhosgobel. After all, it was found deserted, and Rhadagast was indeed a homebody. It was found deserted between Gandalf's escape and the storming of Isengard, so the timeline is right. There would have been, of course, no body to have been found by the Elven scouts.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Attalus

I agree with this. I will admit that it never occurred to me that Saruman might have had him killed. But, when you think about it, after the Eagle rescued Gandalf, a paranoid like Saruman would certainly have suspected some involvement by Radaghast, and could have dispatched some wolf-riders to Rhosgobel. After all, it was found deserted, and Rhadagast was indeed a homebody. It was found deserted between Gandalf's escape and the storming of Isengard, so the timeline is right. There would have been, of course, no body to have been found by the Elven scouts.

Actually Radagast went missing between mid-September 3018, when he sent Gwaihir to Orthanc, and November of the same year, when Rivendell scouts found Rhosgobel empty.

Probably Radagast learned about Saruman's betrayal from Gwaihir, when the Eagle returned from his errand to Orthanc. As he did on the previous occasion (with the news of the nazgul) Radagast likely felt compelled to leave Rhosgobel and go warn the White Council. Now it would be Elrond or Galadriel, not Saruman, who had to be warned. Likely he went to Rivendell and would have been another participant at the Council of Elrond, if he ever got there. But he didn't.

Maybe he met the orcs that were hunting Gollum, maybe some uruks of Saruman, maybe something else (Olog-hai?). Actually Saruman could have asked Sauron to send a war-party from Dol-Guldur to get rid of Radagast. It was clearly in their mutual interests, and Sauron was as yet unaware of Saruman's double-dealings so he could grant his ally such small boon.

Alternatively, Sauron himself was likely wrathful at Saruman that the wizard let Gandalf escape. To appease the Dark Lord, Saruman may have put all the blame on Radagast and the latter was sought out and killed. It was never good to live so close to Dol-Guldur.

[Earniel]

Interesting theory, Gordis. That could indeed have easily happened, I hope not, though, because I've always quite liked Radagast.

Yet somehow, I think it is unlikely for Tolkien to not mention this particular demise somewhere in his writing. It could just be my desire to let Radagast survive talking, but I sort of assume that Tolkien could easily have mentioned Radagast's fate, if indeed fatal and at the hands of the Enemy troups. It could have cropped up in the short mention of the battles in Lorien or at the gates of the Lonely Mountain (where the kings Dain and Brand fell) or in the appendices somewhere. It would have made a perfect good example somewhere in the story to once again high-light Saruman's betrayal.

Hm, the more I think of it, it is an interesting topic. If Rhosgobel was empty, where was Radagast? He isn't mentioned again, I think. I would be strange that Gandalf took the time to visit and go talk to Tom Bombadil before sailing, but not visit his collegue Radagast, not even to deliver a short admonishment about deserting tasks.

[Gordis]

Well, Radagast's survival is also possible, of course.

It is almost certain that Gwaihir told him of Saruman's betrayal. One thing must have become clear to the Brown: after helping Gandalf he was in grave danger from both Saruman and Sauron.

The bird-tamer was no fearless hero, so it made imminent sense to flee from Rhosgobel at once, beause it was where the enemies were sure to come look for him. He may have fled to Thranduil, or to Dain for instance. He could have gone to Lorien to warn Galadriel, but departed prior to the Fellowship's arrival. He could have begged Gwaihir for a place in his eerie...

[Olmer]

No, Valandilthis time it's you who suspecting a foul play. Bad examples are catching.
I suspect nothing of such kind. Actually, I think that Radagast-Aiwendil has been living happily ever after in the woods of Middle Earth, talking to birds and animals, and waiting for his time to come, when he will play a major role in the enthronement of another imposter, who would be a great king.
People called him Myrddin -the shapeshifter in the woods. Later it was changed on Merlin. Guess, who was that mudblood placed on the throne with his help? The clue - his name also starts with "A"

I am sure that other two istari did something similar in the others far away countries. After all they all saw the Music of Ainur, saw the future and knew what each and everyone has have to do in farther development of ME's history.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Olmer

No, Valandilthis time it's you who suspecting a foul play. Bad examples are catching.
:
:

Oh - I just figured you'd blame the Elves. Silly me.

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Sarumon killing Raddy?? I think Eärniel is right. JRRT would've put that somewhere. It would've been a big deal. I mean, Sarumon didn't really wanna kill Gandalf either. I think he was scared to kill one of his order. I'm not sure why, but I get that feeling.

Could it have been ol' Radagast who sent the eagles to the Black Gates? Gandalf seemed surprised when they showed up.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

Sarumon killing Raddy?? I think Eärniel is right. JRRT would've put that somewhere. It would've been a big deal. I mean, Sarumon didn't really wanna kill Gandalf either. I think he was scared to kill one of his order. I'm not sure why, but I get that feeling.
:
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But JRRT only put down the things that would have been known and recorded by the Hobbits. Saruman could have quietly gotten rid of Radagast and nobody would have been the wiser.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I think the "master of shapes and hue" probably was at Rhosgobel (or nearby) when they sought him there, but hiding in another guise.

I also think he had a hand in sending the Eagles to the Black Gate for the fall of Sauron.

[Gordis]

Found something in HOME 7.

Home 7: "the story foreseen from Moria"
Gandalf takes [Saruman's] staff and breaks it over his knee. 'Go, Saruman,' he said, 'and beg from the charitable for a day's digging.'
Isengard is given to the Dwarves. Or to Radagast?
They ride home to Rivendell.

Here is some proof that at least at the time of writing of this outline, Tolkien expected Radagast to survive the War of the Ring and remain in ME.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Found something in HOME 7.


Here is some proof that at least at the time of writing of this outline, Tolkien expected Radagast to survive the War of the Ring and remain in ME.

Good find, Gordis. To me, the least worrisome thing is to find "Rhadagast's old home at Rhosgobel deserted." This seems to imply that there was a newer one, but, then, why should the Elven scouts feel called upon to report that the 'old home' was deserted? And, Saruman did not plan Gandalf's execution, but to leave it to Sauron to 'devise a fitting punishment ...for Gandalf the Grey.' Perhaps it was beyond Saruman's powers to kill another of his fellow Istari? But not Sauron's. Gandalf certainly implies the latter.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Good find, Gordis. To me, the least worrisome thing is to find "Rhadagast's old home at Rhosgobel deserted." This seems to imply that there was a newer one, but, then, why should the Elven scouts feel called upon to report that the 'old home' was deserted? And, Saruman did not plan Gandalf's execution, but to leave it to Sauron to 'devise a fitting punishment ...for Gandalf the Grey.' Perhaps it was beyond Saruman's powers to kill another of his fellow Istari? But not Sauron's. Gandalf certainly implies the latter.

I suspect not beyond his powers - since they were in the forms of men, and Saruman himself was slain by a man (of sorts). But possibly beyond his inclinations and preferences.

As for the 'old home' part - I suspect that the home itself was just old. Radagast had lived there a long time.

Interesting what Gordis found... though JRRT could have changed his mind about this, as well as so many other things.

I don't think Radagast sent the Eagles to the Black Gate. They had previously come to the Lonely Mountain on their own volition, and they had been clearly keeping an eye on things in February/March of 3019. This watchfulness was more at Gandalf's prompting than Radagast's, I should think.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Valandil

I suspect not beyond his powers - since they were in the forms of men, and Saruman himself was slain by a man (of sorts). But possibly beyond his inclinations and preferences.

Good point. A Balrog, or even a Man, could slay the body, but only the Lords of the West could cast the spirit into the Void.

How much, I wonder, of Saruman's vulnerability to Wormtongue's blade was due to the fact that Gandalf broke Saruman's staff and cast him from the Order?

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Attalus

:
:
How much, I wonder, of Saruman's vulnerability to Wormtongue's blade was due to the fact that Gandalf broke Saruman's staff and cast him from the Order?

I don't think very much. In "The Hobbit", I think Gandalf was in as much mortal danger as the dwarves, when they were in the burning trees. Well... at least Bilbo seemed to think so, writing about what Gandalf was going to do before the eagles came to rescue them.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Valandil

I don't think very much. In "The Hobbit", I think Gandalf was in as much mortal danger as the dwarves, when they were in the burning trees. Well... at least Bilbo seemed to think so, writing about what Gandalf was going to do before the eagles came to rescue them.

I've always agreed with Sam: "Whatever's in store for old Gandalf, I'll wager it's not a wolf's belly."