Who Knew About Frodo’s Ring?

[Alcuin]

It’s quiet. Too quiet. So on to something new.

Who knew about Frodo’s Ring? This is a follow-on to the earlier thread, “Who Knew about Bilbo’s Ring?�

Starting from the end of The Hobbit, I think we can begin to track who knew about Frodo’s odd inheritance from Bilbo. Just to review: Bilbo told the Dwarves, though not the whole truth about how he got it: he told them Gollum gave it to him as a present. (That’s the original version in early editions of The Hobbit, btw.) He also told Gandalf, though how much he told Gandalf is unclear; but I think that by the time Gandalf and Bilbo reached Rivendell in the spring of the year after the Battle of Five Armies, the wizard knew most of the story directly from Bilbo, and was able correctly surmise whatever was left out either intentionally or “accidentally on purpose.� In fact, I think the Elvenking’s parting comments to Bilbo indicate that either Gandalf told him, too, or else he’d figured it. (See the aforementioned thread for more.) There can be little doubt that Gandalf soon told Elrond, probably while he tarried at Rivendell with Bilbo, or else soon after: not consulting Elrond would be a grave error: they were both Keepers of the Three, and the discovery of another Great Ring affected both of them both personally and “professionally.� I think there is reason to believe the survivors of Thorin & Co. told Dáin Ironfoot, but what they could tell him was probably limited and perhaps garbled; at any rate, they knew little except that it existed and that it made Bilbo invisible; and for this discussion, it is not significant, other than that Dáin and his counselors gave no indication to Sauron’s emissary (one of the Nine?) that they knew anything, if indeed they did.

So let’s start with how things stood at the end of Bilbo’s Farewell Party.

We know Bilbo told Frodo: Frodo tells Gandalf that himself in their conversation at Bag End shortly after the Farewell Party. (“A Long-expected Party�) That happened soon after Frodo moved to Bag End with Bilbo in III Age 2989 (Shire Reckoning 1389), twelve years before the Farewell Party. The year before the Farewell Party, Merry sees Bilbo use the Ring to avoid the Sackville-Bagginses. (“Conspiracy Unmasked�)

By this time, I imagine both Gandalf and Elrond communicated with Galadriel about the Ring. They might not have yet known which of the Great Rings it was, but they knew it had to be one of the Seven – or the One. I cannot imagine that Galadriel withheld that information from her partner and consort for more than two Ages of Middle-earth, Celeborn.

So at this point, we can add Frodo, Merry, Galadriel, and Celeborn to our count.

And now, we have the Farewell Party. W00t! W00t!

[Valandil]

Interesting.

And by the time Frodo leaves Bag End, the other "conspirators" all know: Pippin, Sam & Fatty Bolger.

One thing makes me wonder... if Gandalf had told Elrond and they eventually told Galadriel - it almost seems like eventually, over the 70+ years, that at least one of them would be insistent that Gandalf look into it and verify just which Ring it was. Especially once Sauron had revealed himself.

On the other hand - Gandalf had never told Saruman. Perhaps he never told Elrond or Galadriel either, but just decided to keep it to himself and keep watch.

The Dwarves of Erebor could have been the "weak link"... with the whole company knowing SOMEthing, the story likely spread somewhat among the community. At least among their immediate families (at least half were connected with the royal family though, as I recall). With someone coming to make an offer like Sauron's emissary did (I favor the Mouth of Sauron), did any younger Dwarf, who happened to know something, feel tempted to give what information he knew in exchange for a Dwarven Ring?

But apparently, either Dain had good enough control of the situation, or nobody was so bold and foolish, or the company of Dwarves just didn't share that secret around.

[Alcuin]

Thank you, Valandil.

Let’s address Fatty Bolger and get up to Frodo’s arrival in Rivendell.

Soon after Bilbo’s Farewell Party, Gandalf spoke to Aragorn of his concerns about Bilbo’s Ring.

As an aside here, people often complain that Gandalf was dumb because he failed to recognize Bilbo’s Ring for what it was: the Ruling Ring. They surmise that he was negligent, or sloppy, or had some other character flaw. I don’t think that’s the case at all. I remember going to a superb physician once: I was extremely ill, and he correctly diagnosed my condition. (I’d been to lots of good physicians, but this was his specialty and it was an odd situation) Then I remember he said, “Now I have to prove it.� (Six words you don’t really want to hear the physician say: It means he’s going to torture you. At the same time of course, you do want to hear them: You have the opportunity to get well, and I did get well.) Gandalf had to prove that Bilbo’s Ring was the One Ring, and not another. Guessing, however well intended or informed, would not do. I think he came north to the Shire as soon as he learned from Isildur’s scroll in Denethor’s library trove how to positively identify the Ring: put it into a fire and heat it.

In the meantime, Gollum wandered to the borders of Mordor, eventually entering Mordor, willingly or unwillingly. From Gollum, Sauron learned that “Baggins� had the Ring, and that “Baggins� was in “Shire�. Sauron told the Nazgûl and sent them to re-acquire his property.

Separately, Saruman determined that Gandalf and the Rangers were guarding something valuable in the Shire. He had been spying on Gandalf anyway. Either on his own, or because of Sauron’s queries and searches, he also learned the Ring was in the Shire. Whether or not he knew about “Baggins� is unclear, but probably not: otherwise, he’d have gone after “Baggins� himself!

Sam found out about the Ring. Exactly how, we aren’t told: Merry talked to Sam and recruited him into keeping an eye on Frodo; but Sam may already have known about the Ring on his own, learned of it from Merry, or learned of it eavesdropping on Gandalf and Frodo. Merry also recruited Pippin and Freddy, and told them about the Ring: Merry, Freddy, and Pippin were Frodo’s closest friends (as well as his cousins) before Frodo and Sam bonded in their joint baptism of misery and terror.

Along the way to Bree, Frodo and his companions met Tom Bombadil, revealed to Bombadil the One Ring, and even gave Bombadil the Ring. Bombadil no doubt told Goldberry, too.

When Elrond learned from Gildor’s messengers that the Nazgûl were in Eriador searching for Frodo, he told Glorfindel and sent him to look for Frodo and his companions. (Glorfindel indicates that Elrond told at least two other Elves: we aren’t told who they were, but like Glorfindel, they too could face the Nazgûl alone and unaided.)

I don’t think Aragorn shared his knowledge of the whereabouts of the Ruling Ring with the rest of the Dúnedain: the less widely dispersed information, the less likely it is to be revealed to an Enemy; however, it is clear that by the time Frodo left Hobbiton, Sauron and the Nazgûl already knew; but Gildor did not know, I think the Dúnedain were unaware as well.

I think the network of information looks something like this when Frodo is facing the Nazgûl at the Ford of Bruinen.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Valandil

One thing makes me wonder... if Gandalf had told Elrond and they eventually told Galadriel - it almost seems like eventually, over the 70+ years, that at least one of them would be insistent that Gandalf look into it and verify just which Ring it was. Especially once Sauron had revealed himself.

I doubt Gandalf told anyone before he was absolutely sure. It became obvious that finding out the exact provinance of Bilbo's Ring was difficult enough as it took Gandalf about a lifetime. Clearly even the Wise knew little of the Rings of Power apart from their own.

That Bilbo had a Ring of Power may have been evident to Elrond when they stayed in Rivendell, without Gandalf's prompting. He's a Ringbearer already in his own right, and I vaguely remember Galadriel hinting at one Ringbearer having an inkling of another. Although that may have been strictly among the Three. I forget.

But Bilbo's state, when he eventually retired to Rivendell after having handed the Ring to Frodo, may have clued Elrond in regardless. Elrond's a healer; an ancient Hobbit, old beyond the normal lifespan, ought to have raised questions.

The Dwarves of Erebor could have been the "weak link"... with the whole company knowing SOMEthing, the story likely spread somewhat among the community. At least among their immediate families (at least half were connected with the royal family though, as I recall). With someone coming to make an offer like Sauron's emissary did (I favor the Mouth of Sauron), did any younger Dwarf, who happened to know something, feel tempted to give what information he knew in exchange for a Dwarven Ring?

I doubt it, Dwarves are jealously proud of their own secrets. It would stand to reason that they're just as careful with the secrets of others. It's also part of their trade, I take it. I can't see anyone of them sharing knowledge of something as special as Rings of Power so casually, and certainly not with non-Dwarves! Dwarves don't strike me as the gossip-y kind.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I doubt it, Dwarves are jealously proud of their own secrets. It would stand to reason that they're just as careful with the secrets of others. It's also part of their trade, I take it. I can't see anyone of them sharing knowledge of something as special as Rings of Power so casually, and certainly not with non-Dwarves! Dwarves don't strike me as the gossip-y kind.

While I agree with Eärniel and her observation about jealously secretive Dwarves, Valandil is correct: at least, Sauron thought so, sending his messenger (he sounds like a Nazgûl, though there’s no proof in the published material (so far)) three times to try to wheedle or coerce them. There was a great deal of talk of Bilbo and his companions in Lake-town, and later in Dale. He seems to have tried his best to lever something out of Dáin and his folk, and his deduction that they not only knew Baggins’ whereabouts but possibly something about the Ring was spot on; though when Glóin and Gimli arrived in Rivendell, not even Glóin, part of Thorin & Co to whom Bilbo had explained that he had a magic ring that made him invisible, seemed to comprehend what was going on. After their rescue from the spiders, “very soon they began to ask questions. They had to have the whole vanishing business carefully explained,� so Thorin & Co knew all about Bilbo’s ring of invisibility, which Bilbo himself explained not only to them, but to Thorin as well while he was imprisoned in the Elven-king’s halls.

The entry for Third Age 3001 reads,

Bilbo's farewell feast. Gandalf suspects his ring to be the One Ring. The guard on the Shire is doubled. Gandalf seeks for news of Gollum and calls on the help of Aragorn.

We might consider that from at least that point forward, Elrond and Galadriel were also aware of Gandalf’s suspicions, if for no other reason than he or Aragorn might be killed or captured in the venture: the stakes were simply too high at that point. From at least that point, Elrond and Galadriel would be able to seriously contemplate having the Ring within their grasp, how they might respond, and begin forming a plan about how to keep it from Sauron.

But you may be correct, Eärniel, that Gandalf still said nothing: when the Company of the Ring reached Lórien, no one, not even Aragorn, knew what he had planned afterwards. When summoned before Celeborn a second time (beginning of “Farewell to Lórien�), Aragorn told Celeborn and Galadriel, “Beyond Lothlórien I do not know what Gandalf intended to do. Indeed I do not think that even he had any clear purpose.�

Were I to vote, I’d vote that Gandalf spoke to Elrond; but Elrond might in turn have sent word to Saruman. And I agree that Elrond must have suspected a Great Ring at work in Bilbo’s extended age. Aragorn would surely have spoken to Elrond, his beloved foster-father, unless Gandalf warned him not to; and there is Arwen to consider, who was in Aragorn’s complete confidence and surely his closest councilor: she would also tell her father. As for Elrond, he was as aware as Gandalf that “the Nine [Sauron] has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed. The Three are hidden still.�

Can we reasonably doubt that Elrond knew from Third Age 3001 onwards?

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I doubt Gandalf told anyone before he was absolutely sure. It became obvious that finding out the exact provinance of Bilbo's Ring was difficult enough as it took Gandalf about a lifetime. Clearly even the Wise knew little of the Rings of Power apart from their own.

I’ve continued to think about this, and about what Gandalf told Frodo in “Shadow of the Past�, the conversation Sam overheard through the window.

“In Eregion long ago many Elven-rings were made, magic rings as you call them, and they were, of course, of various kinds: some more potent and some less. The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles – yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals.�

So Bilbo has a magic ring that makes him invisible. Hmm. Well, the Noldor of Hollin made “many Elven-rings … of various kinds: some more potent and some less.� I suppose that must include rings that could make the wearer invisible. No doubt they were never in general circulation, and after 4600 years had become even scarcer; but Elven-rings probably had a lasting quality. It would seem from Gandalf’s remarks that maybe Bilbo’s was not the first Elven-ring he had encountered among mortals, at least not the only one he’d heard of.

Bilbo tells the Dwarves about his ring, and he tells Gandalf, though at first he tells neither of them the truth about how he got it. Gandalf “at last got the truth out of him,� and “saw at once that he had been trying to put his claim to the ring beyond doubt. Much like Gollum with his ‘birthday present’.� We don’t know how long that took, but it probably happened on the way Lake-town back to Bag End. After that, Gandalf accompanied Bilbo right to his front door!

“[Bilbo and Gandalf] crossed the bridge and passed the mill by the river and came right back to Bilbo’s own door.�

There is no mention of whether Gandalf stayed to enjoy the festivities as Bilbo interrupted the estate auction underway by Messrs. Grubb, Grubb, and Burrowes.

In “Who Knew about Bilbo’s Ring?�, I asked, “How did Gandalf know it was a Great Ring … from the first? He doesn’t say.� Well I was wrong: he does say:

“Clearly the ring had an unwholesome power that set to work on its keeper at once. ... [T]he years passed..., and they seemed not to touch him. He showed no signs of age. ... [T]hat night when he left this house[, h]e said and did things then that filled me with a fear that no words of Saruman could allay. I knew at last that something dark and deadly was at work. And I have spent most of the years since then in finding out the truth of it.�

Does it make sense that Gandalf assumed Bilbo’s ring was one of the many lesser Elven-rings, and that he was convinced that it was a Great Ring by Bilbo’s uncharacteristic lying about how he found it and his interactions with Gollum (which make much more sense that Gollum’s gift of a “present�), his failure to age, and his unwonted hostile reaction toward Gandalf following the Long-Awaited Party.

After all, assuming that Bilbo possessed – and was nearly possessed by – Sauron’s long-lost Ruling Ring does seem quite the conceit, even for a wizard. That should be obvious, I guess: Maybe I’ve become inured to some of the wonder of the story.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

While I agree with Eärniel and her observation about jealously secretive Dwarves, Valandil is correct: at least, Sauron thought so, sending his messenger (he sounds like a Nazgûl, though there’s no proof in the published material (so far)) three times to try to wheedle or coerce them. There was a great deal of talk of Bilbo and his companions in Lake-town, and later in Dale.

The Dwarves were at that point Sauron's only substantial lead. He would have to sound them out whether he believed he'd get something out of them or not. And even if the Dwarves themselves were not talking, there is other, indirect observations to be made in Erebor and the surrounding lands that may have delivered new leads. Like perhaps the large order of toys Bilbo got delivered from Dale may have drawn attention to the Shire it might otherwise not have had.

Or maybe Sauron didn't expect the Dwarves to talk directly to him, but just needed to shake them up a bit. Talk of Bilbo's Ring may not have been common, but stirring up talk of Sauron's emissary and his promisses or threats to Dale and the Mountain may have been a worthy task on its own. Shake a bag of rats and see where they run to hide. It unsettled DaÃ*n enough to seek out Elrond's counsel. It may have convinced others of less noble intentions that the Dark Lord was again becoming a significant player on the nations' playing field and that spying for them may be a good carreer move.

Aragorn would surely have spoken to Elrond, his beloved foster-father, unless Gandalf warned him not to; and there is Arwen to consider, who was in Aragorn’s complete confidence and surely his closest councilor: she would also tell her father.

Hmm. Considering how few moments they had together, judging by the appendices, I'd assume they'd use their time for more interesting topics.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

It would seem from Gandalf’s remarks that maybe Bilbo’s was not the first Elven-ring he had encountered among mortals, at least not the only one he’d heard of.

Yes, it's never really spelled out, but you do get the impressions that magic rings, or at least stories about them, were not unheard of among many of the mortal races. It would at least partly explain why Bilbo's ring's true identity remained unclear for so long.

Bilbo tells the Dwarves about his ring, and he tells Gandalf, though at first he tells neither of them the truth about how he got it. Gandalf “at last got the truth out of him,� and “saw at once that he had been trying to put his claim to the ring beyond doubt. Much like Gollum with his ‘birthday present’.� We don’t know how long that took, but it probably happened on the way Lake-town back to Bag End. After that, Gandalf accompanied Bilbo right to his front door!

“[Bilbo and Gandalf] crossed the bridge and passed the mill by the river and came right back to Bilbo’s own door.�

There is no mention of whether Gandalf stayed to enjoy the festivities as Bilbo interrupted the estate auction underway by Messrs. Grubb, Grubb, and Burrowes.

I got the impression that Gandalf only pressed for the true story much later, and not as early as their return from freeing Erebor from Smaug. The Ring would likely have not arroused too much suspicion at that time. I don't remember whether it was stated so in the texts, but I seem to recall Gandalf called on Bilbo once and a while before his 111st birthday. It may have happened at any of those visits, but it likely would have been before Gandalf sought out the Gondorean archives.

Does it make sense that Gandalf assumed Bilbo’s ring was one of the many lesser Elven-rings, and that he was convinced that it was a Great Ring by Bilbo’s uncharacteristic lying about how he found it and his interactions with Gollum (which make much more sense that Gollum’s gift of a “present�), his failure to age, and his unwonted hostile reaction toward Gandalf following the Long-Awaited Party.

After all, assuming that Bilbo possessed – and was nearly possessed by – Sauron’s long-lost Ruling Ring does seem quite the conceit, even for a wizard. That should be obvious, I guess: Maybe I’ve become inured to some of the wonder of the story.

It pays to bear in mind that the Ring had a rather different on Hobbits than it had on Men. No one tested Hobbits before! (I was going to say: 'no one had invented Hobbits at that time'. But without my books right here, I can't recall just when Hobbits develloped enough to be seen as Hobbits.)

If Gandalf suspected Bilbo's ring was the One Ring, and if the known effects he was expecting from such a powerful thing didn't manifest in Bilbo when they would have in Men, wouldn't that argue for the case that Bilbo's ring was not the One Ring, but rather one of the (apparently sufficiently numerous) lesser magical rings?

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

The Dwarves were at that point Sauron's only substantial lead. He would have to sound them out whether he believed he'd get something out of them or not. …
Or maybe Sauron didn't expect the Dwarves to talk directly to him, but just needed to shake them up a bit. Talk of Bilbo's Ring may not have been common, but stirring up talk of Sauron's emissary and his promisses or threats to Dale and the Mountain may have been a worthy task on its own. … It unsettled DaÃ*n enough to seek out Elrond's counsel. …

At the Council of Elrond, Glóin told those gathered,

I have been sent at last by Dáin to warn Bilbo that he is sought by the Enemy, and to learn, if may be, why he desires this ring… Also we crave the advice of Elrond. … We discover that messengers have come also to King Brand in Dale, and that he is afraid. We fear that he may yield.

Dáin was a good and wise king: he and his court regarded Bilbo as their friend and ally. Dwarves are famous as faithful allies. They sent to warn him of his peril. But they were also concerned that their principle ally, Brand of Dale, would give in to threats. (He did not, and died fighting beside Dáin six months later.)

Since Thráin’s ring was never recovered, the Dwarves also legitimately ask, what of Bilbo’s ring, this “least of rings.” Why all the fuss? Might it be Thráin’s ring? (I expect Glóin would have made an immediate but polite demand that Frodo turn Thráin’s ring over immediately. It doesn’t sound as if he wanted Sauron’s ring!) And if not, why is it so important? Good questions: smart Dwarves.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Yes, it's never really spelled out, but you do get the impressions that magic rings, or at least stories about them, were not unheard of among many of the mortal races. It would at least partly explain why Bilbo's ring's true identity remained unclear for so long.

Right. My conclusion, too; but it took me over 40 years to reach it.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I got the impression that Gandalf only pressed for the true story much later… It … likely would have been before Gandalf sought out the Gondorean archives.

Certainly.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

It pays to bear in mind that the Ring had a rather different on Hobbits than it had on Men.

It surprised Sauron and certainly the Nazgûl, who were familiar with the effects of their Rings on them.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

If Gandalf suspected Bilbo's ring was the One Ring, and if the known effects he was expecting from such a powerful thing didn't manifest in Bilbo when they would have in Men, wouldn't that argue for the case that Bilbo's ring was not the One Ring, but rather one of the (apparently sufficiently numerous) lesser magical rings?

I think you are right, Eärniel.

───◊───

I think this is a fair representation of how matters stood at the end of the Council of Elrond. How says the ’Moot? Would Aragorn tell Halbarad, who acted as steward or marshal of Arnor?

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Since Thráin’s ring was never recovered, the Dwarves also legitimately ask, what of Bilbo’s ring, this “least of rings.� Why all the fuss? Might it be Thráin’s ring? (I expect Glóin would have made an immediate but polite demand that Frodo turn Thráin’s ring over immediately. It doesn’t sound as if he wanted Sauron’s ring!) And if not, why is it so important? Good questions: smart Dwarves.

If Tolkien had wanted to make a political thriller, rather than a mythological epos, this would have been a powerful hook right here. What if there had been no sure way of finding out whether it was the One Ring? What if it for all points and purposes could easily have passed as ThraÃ*n's ring and the Dwarves would have liked to have it back? They wouldn't have taken a 'no' for very long.

Right. My conclusion, too; but it took me over 40 years to reach it.

You shouldn't take it as a bad thing. Isn't it amazing that after 40 years a known text can still surprise you and make you change your mind?

I think this is a fair representation of how matters stood at the end of the Council of Elrond. How says the ’Moot? Would Aragorn tell Halbarad, who acted as steward or marshal of Arnor?

I don't think so, such knowledge might endanger Halbarad rather than help him do his job. Life spans of the remaining Arnorean Dúnedain were not so awesome. Besides, the plan had been to get Frodo out of the Shire and to Elrond, making what he carried not Arnor's problem soon enough.

I am wondering whether Gandalf would have told Thranduil. Sindarin Elves had less to do with the Rings than the Elves of Noldorin descent and may not find them so significant. But Thranduil was involved to keep Gollum contained and I realise I don't remember enough of that part to determine whether Thranduil could have been told. A re-read may be in order.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

What if there had been no sure way of finding out whether it was the One Ring? What if it for all points and purposes could easily have passed as ThraÃ*n's ring and the Dwarves would have liked to have it back? They wouldn't have taken a 'no' for very long.

That was probably part of Glóin’s mission. On the other hand, in “The Council of Elrond”, Gandalf said,

The Nine, the Seven, and the Three had each their proper gem. Not so the One. It was round and unadorned, as if it were one of the lesser rings; but its maker set marks upon it that the skilled, maybe, could still see and read.

I suspect the Dwarves knew the Ring of the House of Durin had a stone; but since the Dwarvish kings were so secretive about their Ring of Power, it may be that none of them had ever seen it.

[Added hours later:] “It was round and unadorned, as if it were one of the lesser rings.” It looked like a lesser ring! It seems Gandalf had seen a lesser ring before.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Isn't it amazing that after 40 years a known text can still surprise you and make you change your mind?

That’s why I keep reading Tolkien – and posting at Entmoot! We sometimes forget that Tolkien’s mythos was not twelve or twenty years’ of work, but the product of a lifetime of professional engagement with the real world. Arda, the Elves, Men, and Hobbits are all players on a stage for his models of language, language built to reflect his studies and theories of real world languages and histories. I think this is his working model of our world, cast into literature and story.

Still, I wish I’d caught that earlier. I think I recall something of it, long ago, but set it aside and focused my attention on other things.

[Also added hours later:] Yeah. Yeah, a known text that still surprises me after more than 40 years.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I don't think so, such knowledge might endanger Halbarad rather than help him do his job. Life spans of the remaining Arnorean Dúnedain were not so awesome. Besides, the plan had been to get Frodo out of the Shire and to Elrond, making what he carried not Arnor's problem soon enough.

I’m inclined to agree. The fewer people who know the secret, the better kept it will be. There is always the danger Halbarad or one of the other Dúnedain Rangers of old Arnor would be captured and tortured or subjected to magic of some sort, whether a “truth serum” of the Nazgûl or some spell. (Cf. the story of Gorlim the Unhappy in the Tale of Beren and Lúthien.) Still, I have to ask.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I am wondering whether Gandalf would have told Thranduil. Sindarin Elves had less to do with the Rings than the Elves of Noldorin descent and may not find them so significant. But Thranduil was involved to keep Gollum contained and I realise I don't remember enough of that part to determine whether Thranduil could have been told. A re-read may be in order.

That it was discussed, I have no doubt. Even if Gandalf did not tell him outright, the Elvenking (Thranduil, though not called by his right name in The Hobbit) understood that Bilbo was able to move about invisibly, as clearly indicated in the second-to-last chapter, “The Return Journey”:

“I beg of you,” said Bilbo stammering and standing on one foot, “to accept this gift!” and he brought out a necklace of silver and pearls…

“In what way have I earned such a gift, O hobbit?” said the king.

“Well, … I thought, …” said Bilbo rather confused, “that … some little return should be made for your … hospitality. I mean even a burglar has his feelings. I have drunk much of your wine and eaten much of your bread.”

“I will take your gift, O Bilbo the Magnificent!” said the king gravely. “And I name you elf-friend and blessed. May your shadow never grow less (or stealing would be too easy)! Farewell!”

And with the perspective of the fading of the Elves made clear in the rest of Tolkien’s corpus, “May your shadow never grow less,” is loaded with meaning, not merely that the Elvenking seems to be aware that even when wearing his ring, Bilbo cast a shadow in the noonday sun. From the earlier thread, “Who Knew about Bilbo’s Ring?”

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I don’t know that Gandalf told the Elvenking about Bilbo’s ring, though I strongly suspect he did. After the Dwarves’ escape from his forest fortress, he must have thoroughly investigated the circumstances: any notion that the chief of the guards would deliberately or accidentally free the Dwarves was ridiculous on its face. The Elvenking was both wise and ancient. He must have seen many strange things in his life. It would not take him long to determine that there must have been an invisible thief lurking about his palace, and that this thief was a companion of Thorin & Co. If Gandalf did not at first offer intelligence about Bilbo and his magic ring, I think the Elvenking would ask him if knew anything about an invisible thief, and whether this thief and Bilbo might be one and the same, just to confirm his guess; and if he asked, I think it likely Gandalf would have told him.

That’s what I think – for now, at any rate. I find that as I go on, some things I thought clear enough become less clear, and my opinions change: For long years I was convinced the Balrog in Moria had wings; now I don’t. (And I hope someone takes issue with that position!)

[Valandil]

Maybe this is better suited for a separate thread - but I don't suppose the Dwarf Rings would confer invisibility to a wearer, would they? Or perhaps they would to a human or halfling wearer - though it's doubtful that any of those ever wore a Dwarf Ring. Makes it all the easier for me to think that Bilbo had found some sort of "invisibility ring" - which they had likely heard ancient tales about.

Which of the great rings WOULD make a human invisible, and/or - which wearers of great rings would become invisible when wearing them?

[Earniel]

Interesting topic, Val, but I would agree that that discussion deserves its own thread.

[Jonathan]

Alcuin, that is one fantastic representation in many ways
Thank you!

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

Alcuin, that is one fantastic representation in many ways
Thank you!

Thank you, Jonathan. It was a rough Spring for me beginning shortly after my last post in this thread.

Let us complete this exercise. After the Council of Elrond, at least six more people learned that Frodo possessed the Ruling Ring. Not necessarily in the order in which they found out, these are

1. Faramir, who was told by an intoxicated Sam at Henneth Annûn;
2. Théoden, whom Gandalf told on while he sat in the sun before the doors of Meduseld;
3. Treebeard, who learned during his hasty conversation with Gandalf while Merry and Pippin kept watch at the ruined gate of Isengard;
4. Denethor. This is tricky. We know Gandalf discussed the Ring with Denethor, but we are not privy to their first discussion: our witness is Pippin, who didn’t hear their first conversation on the subject. Moreover, Denethor was

   not as other men of []his time, … and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir… He has long sight. He can perceive, if he bends his will thither, much of what is passing in the minds of men, even of those that dwell far off. It is difficult to deceive him, and dangerous to try.

   Denethor discerned during his father’s lifetime the true identity of Thorongil as the Heir of Isildur, though he might not have determined his name; and he knew that Aragorn was coming to Minas Tirith when he immolated himself in the Hallows. Denethor may well have learned of the Ring from his palantÃ*r and insight: He knew what Sauron did not, that the Ring was not with Aragorn and not coming to Minas Tirith.
5. Imrahil might have learned about the Ring as a member of the Council of Gondor, and thus from either Gandalf or Denethor; but since these two were both extremely conservative in their dispensation of information, it is possible he learned about it from Aragorn. In any case, he knew about it before the Council of the Dúnedain depicted in “The Last Debate”.
6. Éomer almost certainly learned about the Ring from Aragorn. These two befriended one another almost immediately, and their friendship deepened as they rode together and fought side-by-side during the War.

That’s my telling of Who Knew about Frodo’s Ring. I count a minimum of 37 people who knew about the Ring, not including anyone from Thorin & Co other than Glóin or any of Dáin’s other counselors; nor any other unnamed counselors for Elrond other than his sons, Elladan and Elrohir; and discounting Aragorn’s telling Halbarad or any of the other Dúnedain of Arnor (which I think, by the passage of the Paths of the Dead, increasingly unlikely, particularly in the case of Halbarad: Aragorn almost certainly explained matters to him by then, whatever the risks, since it was little different from telling Éomer or Imrahil; Halbarad was his closest living kinsman).

The final sketch looks like this:

[Valandil]

Very nice work. At first look, all your conclusions seem sound and complete. I'll stew on it a little.